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General => Welcome & News => Topic started by: educatedindian on October 11, 2009, 04:26:00 pm

Title: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: educatedindian on October 11, 2009, 04:26:00 pm: Finally, the message is getting out to the mainstream media.

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091011/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_apocalypse2012
2012 isn't the end of the world, Mayans insist

AP – In this photo taken Oct. 3, 2009, Guatemalan Mayan Indian elder Apolinario Chile Pixtun poses for a portrait …

MEXICO CITY – Apolinario Chile Pixtun is tired of being bombarded with frantic questions about the Mayan calendar supposedly "running out" on Dec. 21, 2012. After all, it's not the end of the world.

Or is it?

Definitely not, the Mayan Indian elder insists. "I came back from England last year and, man, they had me fed up with this stuff."

It can only get worse for him. Next month Hollywood's "2012" opens in cinemas, featuring earthquakes, meteor showers and a tsunami dumping an aircraft carrier on the White House.

At Cornell University, Ann Martin, who runs the "Curious? Ask an Astronomer" Web site, says people are scared.

"It's too bad that we're getting e-mails from fourth-graders who are saying that they're too young to die," Martin said. "We had a mother of two young children who was afraid she wouldn't live to see them grow up."

Chile Pixtun, a Guatemalan, says the doomsday theories spring from Western, not Mayan ideas.

A significant time period for the Mayas does end on the date, and enthusiasts have found a series of astronomical alignments they say coincide in 2012, including one that happens roughly only once every 25,800 years.

But most archaeologists, astronomers and Maya say the only thing likely to hit Earth is a meteor shower of New Age philosophy, pop astronomy, Internet doomsday rumors and TV specials such as one on the History Channel which mixes "predictions" from Nostradamus and the Mayas and asks: "Is 2012 the year the cosmic clock finally winds down to zero days, zero hope?"

It may sound all too much like other doomsday scenarios of recent decades — the 1987 Harmonic Convergence, the Jupiter Effect or "Planet X." But this one has some grains of archaeological basis.

One of them is Monument Six.

Found at an obscure ruin in southern Mexico during highway construction in the 1960s, the stone tablet almost didn't survive; the site was largely paved over and parts of the tablet were looted.

It's unique in that the remaining parts contain the equivalent of the date 2012. The inscription describes something that is supposed to occur in 2012 involving Bolon Yokte, a mysterious Mayan god associated with both war and creation.

However — shades of Indiana Jones — erosion and a crack in the stone make the end of the passage almost illegible.

Archaeologist Guillermo Bernal of Mexico's National Autonomous University interprets the last eroded glyphs as maybe saying, "He will descend from the sky."

Spooky, perhaps, but Bernal notes there are other inscriptions at Mayan sites for dates far beyond 2012 — including one that roughly translates into the year 4772.

And anyway, Mayas in the drought-stricken Yucatan peninsula have bigger worries than 2012.

"If I went to some Mayan-speaking communities and asked people what is going to happen in 2012, they wouldn't have any idea," said Jose Huchim, a Yucatan Mayan archaeologist. "That the world is going to end? They wouldn't believe you. We have real concerns these days, like rain."

The Mayan civilization, which reached its height from 300 A.D. to 900 A.D., had a talent for astronomy

Its Long Count calendar begins in 3,114 B.C., marking time in roughly 394-year periods known as Baktuns. Thirteen was a significant, sacred number for the Mayas, and the 13th Baktun ends around Dec. 21, 2012.

"It's a special anniversary of creation," said David Stuart, a specialist in Mayan epigraphy at the University of Texas at Austin. "The Maya never said the world is going to end, they never said anything bad would happen necessarily, they're just recording this future anniversary on Monument Six."

Bernal suggests that apocalypse is "a very Western, Christian" concept projected onto the Maya, perhaps because Western myths are "exhausted."

If it were all mythology, perhaps it could be written off.

But some say the Maya knew another secret: the Earth's axis wobbles, slightly changing the alignment of the stars every year. Once every 25,800 years, the sun lines up with the center of our Milky Way galaxy on a winter solstice, the sun's lowest point in the horizon.

That will happen on Dec. 21, 2012, when the sun appears to rise in the same spot where the bright center of galaxy sets.

Another spooky coincidence?

"The question I would ask these guys is, so what?" says Phil Plait, an astronomer who runs the "Bad Astronomy" blog. He says the alignment doesn't fall precisely in 2012, and distant stars exert no force that could harm Earth.

"They're really super-duper trying to find anything astronomical they can to fit that date of 2012," Plait said.

But author John Major Jenkins says his two-decade study of Mayan ruins indicate the Maya were aware of the alignment and attached great importance to it.

"If we want to honor and respect how the Maya think about this, then we would say that the Maya viewed 2012, as all cycle endings, as a time of transformation and renewal," said Jenkins.

As the Internet gained popularity in the 1990s, so did word of the "fateful" date, and some began worrying about 2012 disasters the Mayas never dreamed of.

Author Lawrence Joseph says a peak in explosive storms on the surface of the sun could knock out North America's power grid for years, triggering food shortages, water scarcity — a collapse of civilization. Solar peaks occur about every 11 years, but Joseph says there's evidence the 2012 peak could be "a lulu."

While pressing governments to install protection for power grids, Joseph counsels readers not to "use 2012 as an excuse to not live in a healthy, responsible fashion. I mean, don't let the credit cards go up."

Another History Channel program titled "Decoding the Past: Doomsday 2012: End of Days" says a galactic alignment or magnetic disturbances could somehow trigger a "pole shift."

"The entire mantle of the earth would shift in a matter of days, perhaps hours, changing the position of the north and south poles, causing worldwide disaster," a narrator proclaims. "Earthquakes would rock every continent, massive tsunamis would inundate coastal cities. It would be the ultimate planetary catastrophe."

The idea apparently originates with a 19th century Frenchman, Charles Etienne Brasseur de Bourbourg, a priest-turned-archaeologist who got it from his study of ancient Mayan and Aztec texts.

Scientists say that, at best, the poles might change location by one degree over a million years, with no sign that it would start in 2012.

While long discredited, Brasseur de Bourbourg proves one thing: Westerners have been trying for more than a century to pin doomsday scenarios on the Maya. And while fascinated by ancient lore, advocates seldom examine more recent experiences with apocalypse predictions.

"No one who's writing in now seems to remember that the last time we thought the world was going to end, it didn't," says Martin, the astronomy webmaster. "There doesn't seem to be a lot of memory that things were fine the last time around."
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: earthw7 on October 11, 2009, 05:58:41 pm: can we say Duh!
they should of asked native people to begin with ;D ;D
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: flyaway on October 11, 2009, 10:15:50 pm: ;D ;D ;D ;D yep!!!!!
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on October 14, 2009, 02:21:55 pm: LOL. I find it fun and interesting. I'm not an expert or whatever, but I've seen some things of a prophet Sybil it is said she predicted something of 2012, and the I-Ching, also the Hopi? Anyway, either way, regardless, I find it amusing. I do know that any 'shift' would be magnetic, not physical.. the Earth isn't going to flip about. I personally wouldn't mind having the magnetic flip occur. I wouldn't mind if the world as we know it crumbled in some ways... :)
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: uktena on October 19, 2009, 11:09:48 pm: This idea that 12/21/12 represents some kind of "end of things" has been like static noise in the background for most of my life, but until now has been drowned out by other end-of-the-world scenarios. There was the Jehovah's Witnesses and their 1984 prediction, which was about as accurate as the ones for 1918, 1925, and 1975. There was the Harmonic Convergence, which I never quite figured out what was supposed to happen then, on August 17, 1987, but of course nothing did. And who can forget that wonderful Y2K business, when all the world's computers crashed, planes fell out of the sky, banks lost all your money, and only people with concrete shelters in their back yards full of guns, bottled water, and canned food survived.......oh, wait a minute, that didn't happen either. :D

Oh, I almost forgot that one about "In the year 1999 and seven months", blah blah, Great King of Terror, blah blah, King of the Mongols, blah blah, Mars rules happily. I never took Nostradamus very seriously, but as far as I'm concerned, he really blew that one!

So I don't think I'm going to lose any sleep over this one, either, other than planning how I'm going to do my usual "see, I told you" number on December 22. Other people can watch the doomsday documentaries on the History Channel ("where history happens in the future"), worry about the poles lining up with the galactic center and Planet X passing by, and buying insurance against falling asteroids, but right now, I'm just going to sit down and have my supper. :D

All the predictions I mentioned are just the ones that got a lot of media attention, never mind all the Chicken Littles doing freelance prophecy to anyone who will listen. ("If it doesn’t come to pass…starting in April, then I’m nothing but a false prophet…"(Ronald Weinland, 2008 - God's Final Witness, Church of God) - well, if the shoe fits.....)

I even have a big joke about 2012: my computer has a screensaver that is designed after the Ouroboros symbol in the late-'90s TV show Millenium; its default configuration was to count down to January 1, 2000, but you can set it to any date you want to. Guess what date it's been counting down toward for the past four years. ;D And just so you know, you all have 1159 days to get your house in order before the Mayan calendar ends, and time itself runs out, and we all transform into one-celled creatures crawling around in the primeval slime trying to remember how to do that evolution thing.

More to the point of this thread, I've been asking all along, why don't people just go and ask the Mayans what this whole thing means, and almost unanimously the answer has been, well, the Mayans don't exist any more (either they died out, or they just boarded their spaceships and went back home), so we have to figure it out for ourselves. Not very different from the guy who decides that, since nobody exists who REALLY knows the Bible, it's up to him to sit down with his KJV and a pocket calculator, and figure out that the world really ended in 2008, but mankind is just too stupid to realize it. (I know I'm trying to be funny here, but in all seriousness, I heard Newagers make this very argument both about the Harmonic Convergence and Y2K.)

It's the usual attitude that has been brought up again and again on this board, how arrogant white people think that Indian culture is disappearing, and its up to us advanced, intelligent, spiritually refined people to recreate and reform it, and give it back to those benighted natives in a shiny, new, improved (and btw much more expensive) form, for the benefit of all mankind.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on October 20, 2009, 02:35:04 am: LOL I still find it fun and interesting. There's not much I take seriously. Fun and interesting is well, more fun and interesting.. ! :)
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: E.P. Grondine on October 27, 2009, 01:56:47 am: As I deal with ancient catastrophic asteroid and comet impacts, I was asked about the 2012 scam all the time. I would tell them that it was a con, and explain to them why, but it was a good thing that I was able point people to NAFPS so they could find out from Maya for themselves, and it is good that the major media finally picked up on it.

As far as "fun" goes, yeah, the well organized ring of con artists who pull these cons have a lot of fun putting fear and confusion into people and then selling them their fears. They have "fun" laughing all the way to the bank when none of it happens.

Go to any Barnes and Nobles or Borders and you can see the imaginary NDN histories they come up with, and the imaginary European empires they set up in the Americas. You'll get a real chuckle - but remember that they manage to convince many people that this was what actually happened.

I thought it was all "fun" and "entertaining" as well... until the bodies started piling up.

PM me for a copy of "Amazing Stories", my guide inside the cult archaeology industry - you will be amazed.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on October 27, 2009, 04:00:18 am: That's not my definition of fun and interesting. And I never said that it was. Some may find it profitable, and manipulate it and people.. and still others find it fearful.

I put aside all the fanciful imaginings, and just enjoy for what it is. But I"m not a doomsday type person either. And have never believed the world would 'end'. But the coming of a time, marked by an ancient people's, is to me, fun and interesting.

The magnetic poles may or may not flip during my lifetime, or our great grandchildren's lifetimes.. great great grandchildren's or.. who knows? But the magnetic poles do flip.. but I don't believe it would cause the end of the world.. and I don't 'attach' it to the 2012. I find prophecy interesting, but I don't put a whole lot of stock into it because I just don't believe the 'future' can be predicted.. I don't believe the 'future' is 'tangible' in that sort of way. The future hasn't been written yet.. it is still open.. and new.. to all possibilities.

The doomsday sayers, well, they have their say.. and it's what they will believe whether there is a movie or not. I will most likely enjoy the movie, if it's good, because I like good Sci Fi.. I liked the Lord of the Rings too..

Movies and whatnot, people have imaginations, and imagine what it would be like if the world did end. Why it's 'attached' to 2012 I don't know, exactly, a mis interpretation of some archeologists.. The apocalypse movies attached to the Christian myths also have people in a fit, and many take advantage of that as well.. Millions of believers in that myth are just 'waiting' for it to happen.. and perhaps even 'intending' it.. Sad, but there it is.

All I can say is People will be people, and some will always take everything way too seriously, and end their lives over it, or rake in the dough by exploiting such a thing. But does that mean I or another cannot just enjoy an event for what it is without all the hoopla?
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: educatedindian on November 10, 2009, 04:38:32 pm: Now NASA is working to debunk the nonsense about 2012.

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http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.d1a7d73018336ea872c383a980ddb006.5a1&show_article=1
NASA on a crusade to debunk 2012 apocalypse myths
Nov 9 02:37 PM US/Eastern

The world is not coming to an end on December 21, 2012, the US space agency insisted Monday in a rare campaign to dispel widespread rumors fuelled by the Internet and a new Hollywood movie.

Sony Pictures's latest big screen offering "2012" arrives in theaters on Friday, with a 200-million-dollar production about the end of the world supposedly based on myths backed by the Mayan calendar.

The doomsday scenario revolves claims that the end of time will come as an obscure Planet X -- or Nibiru -- heads toward or collides into Earth.

The mysterious planet was supposedly discovered by the Sumerians, according to claims by pseudo-scientists, paranormal activity enthusiasts and Internet theorists.

Some websites accuse NASA of concealing the truth on the wayward planet's existence, but the US space agency denounced such stories as an "Internet hoax."

"There is no factual basis for these claims," NASA said in a question-and-answer posting on its website.

If such a collision were real "astronomers would have been tracking it for at least the past decade, and it would be visible by now to the naked eye," it added. "Obviously, it does not exist."

"Credible scientists worldwide know of no threat associated with 2012," NASA insisted.

Initial theories set the disaster for May 2003, but when nothing happened the date was moved forward to the winter solstice in 2012 to coincide with the end of a cycle of the ancient Mayan calendar.

But NASA insisted the Mayan calendar in fact does not end on December 21, 2012, as another period begins immediately afterward. And it said there are no planetary alignments on the horizon for the next few decades.

And even if the planets were to line up as some have forecast, the effect on our planet would be "negligible," NASA said.

Among the other theories NASA has set out to debunk are that geomagnetic storms, a pole reversal or unsteadiness in the Earth's crustal plates might befall the planet.

And while comets and asteroids have always hit the Earth, "big hits are very rare," NASA noted. The last major impact was believed to be 65 million years ago, spurring the end of dinosaurs.

"We have already determined that there are no threatening asteroids as large as the one that killed the dinosaurs," the space agency said.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Defend the Sacred on November 10, 2009, 06:35:03 pm: Can anyone say "Harmonic Convergence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_Convergence)"?

I was one of many, many people who said, "Eh, why not." and trooped out at dawn to meditate and pray in the park. While it was cool to see a bunch of people out at dawn praying for peace, and most people were just doing their own thing, we also saw dubious, wannabe cult leaders taking advantage of people.

Some dude dressed in an approximation of "Mayan" gear showed up in the park. He looked the part, so all these people who were wandering around, wondering what to do, lined up and did whatever he told them. He had them lying on the ground, face down, in weird formations, repeating whatever he said. In retrospect it's sort of funny, but overall it's really creepy. I got bad vibes from the guy.

I don't recall the guy's name, or what became of him after the "Harmonica Virgins". Thankfully, some of the wanderers who were initially drawn to him, thinking it was some sort of official event, wandered away. Some of them wound up praying with us.

I foresee frauds like that dude coming out of the woodwork; and new frauds who are inventing their personas, costumes and backstories right now; all primed to take advantage of the scared and confused... the wanderers in the park.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Sizzle Flambé on November 11, 2009, 05:12:27 pm: Ayup, let's spread the word not to worry, calm everyone down, then make a date to gather and watch.

Someplace high and solid, with a good view of a lot of people, and bring some nice food to pass the time.

When the ground starts shaking, won't they all be surprised! They'll come running out, look all around, see the buildings start to break, and maybe they'll even see us! Do you think we'll be able to hear them scream, "You told us this wouldn't happen!" ?

That'll be the moment for us to put up the big sign reading:
AND YOU SAID YOUR TREATIES WERE GOOD
AS LONG AS THE SUN SHONE AND THE RIVERS RAN,
SUCKERS !
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: E.P. Grondine on November 14, 2009, 10:28:12 pm: The NAFPS message got through:

http://www.dailygrail.com/node

and I really like this one:

http://www.hplusmagazine.com/articles/art-entertainment/2012-carnival-bunkum

Hope you enjoy. Well done.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: NCRunningWolf on November 15, 2009, 03:20:04 pm: I think NAFPS is going to be busy the next few years. ;)
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: E.P. Grondine on November 22, 2009, 06:30:33 pm: Quote from: educatedindian on October 11, 2009, 04:26:00 pm
"The entire mantle of the earth would shift in a matter of days, perhaps hours, changing the position of the north and south poles, causing worldwide disaster," a narrator proclaims. "Earthquakes would rock every continent, massive tsunamis would inundate coastal cities. It would be the ultimate planetary catastrophe."

The idea apparently originates with a 19th century Frenchman, Charles Etienne Brasseur de Bourbourg, a priest-turned-archaeologist who got it from his study of ancient Mayan and Aztec texts.

Actually, no, the reporter on this piece got it wrong, Braasser de Bourbourg was not the source of this "crustal shift" nonsense. Here is a shorter history of the nonsense and how it became a nuage tenet:

http://dailygrail.com/blogs/epgrondine/2009/11/Crustal-shifts-wandering-planets-Niburu-shorter-history-some-bad-hypothesis

Hi -

As near as I know, a crustal shift has never happened, and can't, as the forces required are so large that the Earth would fragment. There is no wandering planet Niburu, nor have any of the planets changed their orbits.

The source for all of this nonsense seems to have been:

JOHANN RADLOF 1823
Who was a classical scholar who first came up with this nonsense. Phaethon=Planet X. (I received this information from Leroy Ellenberger, the work is that of Marinus Anthony van der Sluijs: http://www.mythopedia.info/radlof.htm.)

Radlof's theory, embodied in a thin booklet printed in Gothic letters and published in 1823, essentially boils down to four strands of theory, all of which recur throughout the entire subsequent history of catastrophism.

The FIRST IDEA was that of the exploded planet: in 1802, Olbers had proposed that the recently discovered bodies Ceres, Pallas, Juno, and Vesta in the asteroid belt must have been the last remnants of a former giant planet that once orbited between Mars and Jupiter.

In this source planet, Radlof saw the original referent of the myths of Phaethon, Isaiah's 'morning star', Typhon, and others. [DATES SERIOUSLY WRONG.] The link with Phaethon was justified by reference to the following passage from Nonnus, in which Hermes addressed Phaethon as follows:

"Then you will shine in the sky like the Sun God next to Ares,
scattering that thick invisible darkness far away;
a miracle unheard of in the course of the ages"

If Phaethon really stood "next to Ares", Radlof naively argued, he could have been the missing planet, that formerly revolved between Mars and Jupiter.

THE SECOND COMPONENT of Radlof's theory, the mythical death of both Phaethon and Typhon at the hands of Zeus was then interpreted as
the disruption of the former planet. In keeping with Nonnus' statement that Zeus discharged a comet towards Typhon, Radlof supposed that THE FORMER PLANET 'PHAETHON' SPLINTERED TO PIECES AFTER COLLISION WITH A COMET:

"Perhaps this displacement happened as the result of a collision with what used to be called a dragon star or a comet"

Unperturbed by Nonnus' late date, Radlof then complained that Nonnus ought to have given more attention to the comet than he actually did:

"The moving power of that enormous water mountain that rose from the sea and moved forth over the Earth is obviously Jupiter's comet, and it is actually surprising that our poet allows him only a marginal role"

The THIRD ELEMENT of Radlof's theory is that the planets were on different orbits than today. Radlof uniquely speculated that THE PLANET VENUS WAS ONE OF THE FRAGMENTS OF THE EXPLODED PLANET, that settled into its present orbit in the immediate aftermath of the explosion, after some close encounters with Mars. These views were motivated by the desire to accommodate Varro's statement regarding Venus' changed appearance and possibly also Phaethon's links to Venus. In defence of the view that Venus had once been a constituent of a bigger planet, Radlof pointed to Venus' 'tiny size'. His bold ideas about the origins of Venus qualify Radlof as possibly the first modern 'planetary catastrophist' on record.

The explosion of the planet 'Phaethon' would also have had repercussions for our own planet. The FOURTH ELEMENT in Radlof's theory was THE TILTING OF THE ROTATIONAL AXIS OF THE EARTH, that had originally pointed towards the zenith:

"And the Aethiopians may indeed really have turned black on that occasion, because the hot zone ran over their heads when the Earth axis was disrupted by that event."

The tilted position of the Earth's axis with respect to its poles had already led old-Greek researchers to assume that our earthly star had been hurled from its former, straight position by some external body; in fact, Anaxagoras taught that the stars had originally revolved straight in the celestial firmament, so that the pole stood exactly on top of the zenith of the earth. The Earth's point of gravity must have been disrupted by the collisions of the two disturbed heavenly bodies Hesperus and Phaethon, and especially by the former's change of orbit and all subsequent radical changes in the internal equilibrium equations of the planets in our solar realm, and its former position with respect to the pole had to be altered twice.

FOR THE CONNECTION OF THE TILTING OF THE AXIS TO THE MYTH OF PHAETHON, RADLOF RELIED ON TWO ANCIENT PASSAGES IN WHICH PHAETHON'S FIRE DISTURBED ATLAS, STANDING AT THE POLE OF HEAVEN. THE
PASSAGES IN CASE CAME FROM OVID, FALSELY IDENTIFIED AS HESIOD, AND NONNUS:

"The fire already threatens the pole of heaven
And Atlas can hardly go on to carry the glowing firmament,
When Jupiter - with his lightning hurls the rider from his chariot
and with dreadful fire quenches the all-fire.
With burning hair Phaethon comes down from the high sky
like a star that seems to fall
and is absorbed, far from his home,
by the waves of the great Eridanus
… an entire day went by without sun."

"Even the axis of the sky is twisted by the swirling ether, and the bent Atlas can hardly continue to bear the circling pole of the stars … and all animals of the circle turn inimical towards each other; even the planets clash: Venus clashes with Jupiter, Mars with Saturn; and the Pleiad, thrown of its orbit, approaches Mercury, mixing its cognate light with that of the Pleiades"

Shrinking back from the extraordinary claim of a full-on disruption of all planetary orbits, Radlof hastened to add the following laconic remark to the latter part of Nonnus' quote:

"Whether those disturbances in the solar domain during the fall of that radiant earth star had really been so far-reaching or whether the poet rather painted it in the way it appeared to the eye, easily misled, that may the actual astronomer investigate for himself."

Quite apart from the shifting of the axis, the explosion of the planet 'Phaethon' wreaked more havoc on earth. Ahead of his time, Radlof speculated that the catastrophe caused by the comet impact must have incurred a bundle of disastrous events on earth, including THE FLOOD [of Noah], "great earthquakes" and "eruptions of fire". In a remarkable display of prescience, Radlof envisaged the 'cosmic winter' as a universal deposit of snow in the wake of the event. This prediction was based on Nonnus' report that an endless rain of snow covered the entire earth until the sky, "so that Thessaly's highest pinnacle of rocks and the tops of Parnassus, close to the clouds, swung in the icy flood". And the equivalent of a veil of darkness induced by the fall-out of cosmic debris was Solinus' account of an uninterrupted night holding sway over the earth for nine months during the flood of Ogyges.

Despite these accurate 'predictions', however, and for all its genius, Radlof's work is rather poorly documented by modern standards. No compelling evidence is brought into court at all for the identification of the mythical protagonist with the missing planet in the solar system. A major flaw is the unclarity regarding the dates and the exact number of catastrophes believed to have happened. RADLOF CITED CLASSICAL SOURCES DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN AT LEAST FOUR CATASTROPHES – THOSE OF OGYGES, INACHUS, DARDANUS, AND DEUCALION RESPECTIVELY, BESIDE THE FLOOD OF NOAH AND THE FALL OF PHAETHON – BUT FAILED TO ELUCIDATE HOW MANY OF THESE COULD HAVE BEEN IDENTICAL, and especially to which one the shattering of the planet Phaethon and the fall of Hesperus or Venus would belong. That said, however, Radlof definitely ranks among the pioneers of early catastrophism and may indeed be the first planetary catastrophist in modern scholarship. Immanuel Velikovsky would have done well to credit Radlof as such."

Radlof's nonsense was then picked up on by SAMPSON ARNOLD MACKEY, and passed to Rosicrucian Masons:

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/the_light_...

From there the crustal shift nonsense was taken up by the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor, who passed it to Blavatsky. It was also taken up by Augustus and Alice LePlongeon; Augustus was an insane Mayan scholar who had a peculiar history of Atlantis.

As Le Plongeon put it fairly concisely in his 1876 work "Sacred Mysteries among the Mayas and the Quiches, 11,500 years ago. Their relation to the sacred mysteries of Egypt, Greece, Chaldea and India. Free Masonry in times anterior to the Temple of Solomon": “I will endeavour to show you that the ancient sacred mysteries, the origin of Freemasonry consequently, date back from a period far more remote than the most sanguine students of its history ever imagined. I will try to trace their origin, step by step, to this continent which we inhabit - to America - from where Maya colonists transported their ancient religious rites and ceremonies not only to the banks of the Nile, but to those of the Euphrates, and the shores of the Indian Ocean, not less than 11,500 years ago."

Blavatsky and the LePlongeons met in New York City, where the nonsense was incorporated into "Theosophy", spread to A.M.O.R.C., but most importantly it was passed on to Lillian V. Bense, of Portland, Oregon, near Mt Shasta, who wrote "A Dweller on Two Planets".

Lillian V. Bense's success was picked up on by California con man Baird T. Spaulding, who falsely claimed to have visited India in 1897 and gained mystical wisdom there. His Life and "Teaching of the Masters of the Far East” (1924) and “India Tour Lessons” (1935-1936) enjoyed considerable successm, until his followers cornered him into taking them to India to meet with the masters.

Spaulding's con collapsed when the masters failed to show up, leaving the way open for two commercial writers, Robert D. Stelle and Howard John Zitko to go into the religion business, which they did by setting up the Lemurian Fellowship. They enjoyed considerable success, until money disputes came in the way. Following an investigation of Stelle and Zitko for bond fraud, Stelle took all of Zitko's writing.

The dispute between Stelle and Zitko left the ownership of their work open, and it was stolen by their student Richard Kieninger, who wrote "The Ultimate Frontier". David Hatcher Childress then used the materials Kieninger had gathered to write his books, and entered into a business partnership with Kieninger. But Kieninger was thrown out of the community that his followers had built for him (and which he then sold to them) for seducing their wives and teenage daughters.

David Hatcher Childress (with his half brother John Moss's assistance, and using the technical skills of Harry Osoff) now set up a computerized mailing list using Richard Kieninger's mailing list. Added to the mix was some novel "alternative" physics which had been gathered by Richard and David's former business partner Bill Donovan.

Richard Kieninger himself would go on to become involved with the Republic of Texas militia group.

The last time the Earth's crust was supposed to shift was the year 2000. It did not shift then, and it won't shift in 2012. Physics precludes it. Here is an alternative hypothesis, one whose truth is becoming more and more evident yearly: in the recent past the Earth has been hit by both comets and asteroids, and these impacts killed a lot of people.

Bottom line: In my opinion, what Radlof was trying to make sense of was ancient memories of these impacts.

Finally, as was posted here at the Daily Grail, the idea that 2012 marks some end time is European, not Mayan. Do you have an automobile accident every time your odometer rolls over?

I suppose in closing this I should mention these folks had and have a really strange ideas about Jesus, who he was, and what he did, and thus it is the source for "The DaVinci Code". As was mentioned by Dan Brown in his testimony in the plagiarism suit. So let's see: Jesus, Masons, Templars, Roman Catholic Church...

Given its lack of a real historical basis, does it matter what fiction an author come up with? Does it matter what fiction a movie maker uses for his disaster film?

Sometimes it does. A soul is a terrible thing to loose.

If anyone here at NAFPS wants a copy of my guide inside the nuage industry, simply PM me for one.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on January 05, 2010, 05:50:01 am: I wonder if the Mayan descendants know what happened, why 1000's up and left their villages with no trace?
Title: 2012 Time to Make New Order Resolutions
Post by: flyingdust on January 07, 2010, 07:55:59 am: I predict Merle Haggard's song "If We Make It Through December" will be a big hit in 2012, lol!

I'm a Cree from Canada. Hello everybody. I saw the movie 2012 and I was disappointed and unenlightened. This whole big scaremongering going on is all about one of the greatest achievements made by our Indigenous American ancestors – the Mayan Calendar. This calendar accurately marked significant 5,000 year cycles of orders stretching deep into the past and far into the future. Yet the Mayan calendar only got about a 30 second mention in the whole movie. It would’ve' been nice if the movie began with a dramatic scene of ancient Mayan astronomers and mathematicians (played by NDN actors) creating this remarkable calendar and marking 2012 as a significant millennial event. Ah, but what do you expect.

I've been interested in the Mayan calendar system for over 20 years, and to be perfectly honest, it remains to one of the greatest mysteries in the world. If anybody know for sure about it, it would be the Mayans, and that knowledge likely belongs to a few Mayan families...and they’re not about to tell the world anytime soon. All the media hype that's going on now is just more pure speculation, concocted mainly by nuagers and opportunists out to turn a profit from our history and culture. And it's just going to get worse in months to come as we approach 2012. Did you hear time is speeding up?

On the positive side, we can use 2012 as a time we can make resolutions like we do on New Year’s Eve. Our resolutions can include what personal commitments we can make in the new order to come to make this a better world to live in for the benefit of our future generations. That's what our traditional peoples always ask for in their prayers. ::)
Title: Re: 2012 Time to Make New Order Resolutions
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on January 07, 2010, 03:17:55 pm: I love the mystery of it. I think people are nuts with/about it. Each cycle on the calendar has an end. Maybe the 2012 end is because they up and left and didn't finish or start a new one .. maybe as simple as that they ran out of room on where they were making it and never got starting on continuation before they left. No one knows.

I find more interesting than the calendar that they up and left without a trace. Obviously not all, as there are descendants..
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 07, 2010, 09:00:49 pm: mod note - merged new thread into already-existing discussion.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Unegv Waya on January 08, 2010, 05:47:24 pm: The whole thing about the poles shifting their polarity is based upon some very wrong assumptions. Yes, the poles were in different locations many, many eons ago but that has to do with the speed an rotational direction of our mother's molten iron core. It had nothing to do with her suddenly rearranging her lands and waters.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 08, 2010, 11:37:11 pm: Quote from: critter on January 07, 2010, 03:17:55 pm
Each cycle on the calendar has an end. Maybe the 2012 end is because they up and left and didn't finish or start a new one .. maybe as simple as that they ran out of room on where they were making it and never got starting on continuation before they left. No one knows.

Cultures the world over have their own calendars. One peoples' year is ending while anothers' is in the middle. One calendar is having nothing special happening, while another has "ended" because the people died out or assimilated. In rural areas it can seem like we all agree what is the new year, while in an American city, the dragon is dancing down the street in Chinatown while other people prayed in the park months ago, or will months in the future. Fireworks all year round. We all have our beginnings and endings, our points in the cycle. No one culture has claim on the definitive beginning and ending, and many of us see time as eternal.

Slàinte Mhath.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on January 09, 2010, 08:40:34 am: Yes, that is what I mean. You said it better. Some of us don't see time as really existing.. I think it was Einstein who stated that time existed only so that everything doesn't happen all at once. :D

I like the "idea" of a change for this world though, but I suppose most people do. The difference is that I don't believe anyone knows When, or even and most importantly IF.

One has to live with where they are in now, not in some idealized notion that imaginations have taken flight with.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 09, 2010, 11:36:15 pm: Quote from: critter on January 09, 2010, 08:40:34 am
I think it was Einstein who stated that time existed only so that everything doesn't happen all at once. :D

Or so people don't go crazy. :o

Quote
I like the "idea" of a change for this world though, but I suppose most people do.

Yeah, most people can tell the world is pretty screwed up these days. I think the challenge is for people to apply that desire for change in a good way; to do the hard work in a grounded, realistic way rather than looking to frauds and sham gurus for a quick fix.

And I think even those in mainstream culture who weren't raised Christian have been affected by Christian ideas of apocalypse. Whether it be meteors or angels of revelation or the loosed wolves of Fenris... it's far more dramatic and sexy than things just continuing and it being up to us to do something about it.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: flyingdust on January 11, 2010, 09:59:38 am: Quote
And I think even those in mainstream culture who weren't raised Christian have been affected by Christian ideas of apocalypse. Whether it be meteors or angels of revelation or the loosed wolves of Fenris... it's far more dramatic and sexy than things just continuing and it being up to us to do something about it.

Good point. I often thought of that same thing. Mainstream Native Americans (me included) have been so pervasively influenced by Western thought and tradition. We even speak about our Native American culture and worldview in their language - English - and not in, say, Cree or Mayan. It's no wonder we really don't know what and how the Mayans think or thought about life. We can only speculate. Time is a Western concept, but the Mayans probably had and still do have a concept of time that's totally different from the way we understand it. So every prophesy about 2012 cooked up in movies, on the Internet, and by self-help gurus are fraudulent and arrogant misinterpretations of the Mayan Calendar and of the Mayan people and their culture.

Still, we have the right to wonder and explore the mysteries of the Mayan calendar system, and this can only seriously be done through proper and respectful research. The first step would be to learn the Mayan language and ask the Mayans themselves. The second step may be to go to the research done by Western academia. After all, to seriously learn about any culture in the world, say, French or German, you have to first learn the languages of those cultures. Why should this be any different for the Native American cultures? Try handing in an essay written in English into a German university, for example. You’ll be laughed at first, and then summarily kicked out. I think if we're really going to do something about this 2012 question, then we should start from this resarch approach. 8)
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on January 11, 2010, 04:06:48 pm: I don't believe in permanence. I agree with the belief that everything is impermanent. But, change doesn't equate to mass annihilation either. Or a complete throw over of everything.

I have no clue what that Mayan calendar represents, as it is foreign and from a foreign culture that I have no understanding of.

Why some people need to believe in their own demise, I don't know. Perhaps it's psychological on a mass scale. If a singular person is told from birth they are not worthy, they tend to become self destructive, or have self destructive tendencies. Why wouldn't this be the same in a mass belief system where people are taught they are not worthy? It's one thing to feel humbled with the knowledge or understanding of something like the Creator, or Spirit, or God, and quite another to feel unworthy and groveling for acceptance.

I think it's good to have mystery in our lives. I like the idea that the calendar brings a mystery into life. But I'm not one who feels a need to go and resolve it, and/or attach annihilation beliefs to it. I prefer to let it be what it is to me, a mystery. It could be anything and nothing.. or something..

Well, I'm just sort of rambling around here. I do believe that some change will come in life, but I don't attach it to the calendar.. maybe it will coincide, maybe not.. to me, it doesn't matter if it does or doesn't. What matters to me is just that at some point, life changes. Whether it will be drastic with Earth changing face a bit here and there, or the falling of some nations and economies.. therefore changing the 'power structure' of the world.. or disease that revamps the populations. Or, even, a new technology.. change doesn't have to be a negative. But, nothing remains the same, things change.

What gets me is these people acting like it's the end of the world. Do they really think that if some very drastic and huge change occurred, that people would just roll over and die? We are not stupid. I'm fairly certain that if something drastic happened, we'd have the electricity running again pretty quickly.. :)

Of course, there is also the other side of this.. that belief is what will create it. If a billion people believe California is going to fall off into the ocean, then why wouldn't it with a billion people 'intending' it to take place? It's the statement of "careful what you wish for.. "
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: flyingdust on January 14, 2010, 07:38:55 am: What’s going to happen here is the nuagers are really going to run with this Mayan cultural symbol and exploit it to the max, cranking it up evermore as 2012 approaches. They'll be really raking in the dough and laughing all the way to the bank. Their geometric domed sweats and pipe ceremonies are going to be bursting at the seams with people seeking salvation.

Let them make their money with our traditional symbols and sacred structure. It will never get them any closer to Spirit and essence of our culture, but only further away. They seem to be only fixated with the physical forms of our spiritual traditions, without Power and Spirit.

Even back in the seventies nuagers roamed the continent imitating our ways, fooling around with Native American ceremonies and concepts they knew nothing about. An old and knowledgeable Anishnabe friend of mine (who is no longer with us) used to refer to them as wannabes, show boaters, overnight wonders, and culture vultures.

We have our share of nuagers in Canada, many claiming to be pipe carriers, sweat holders, healers, and clan mothers. And they're all jumping on this 2012 prophecy band wagon. But what's going on in the states with these people, I'm finding from reading the posts in this forum, is appalling and amazing and sad. :(
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Unegv Waya on January 14, 2010, 07:00:45 pm: Quote from: flyingdust on January 14, 2010, 07:38:55 am
Let them make their money with our traditional symbols and sacred structure. It will never get them any closer to Spirit and essence of our culture, but only further away. They seem to be only fixated with the physical forms of our spiritual traditions, without Power and Spirit.

Well said!
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: LittleOldMan on January 14, 2010, 11:38:20 pm: Ceremony not done by a Spirit filled Elder is not worth dirt it has no power. "LOM"
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on April 14, 2010, 08:00:41 pm: Quote from: Unegv Waya on January 08, 2010, 05:47:24 pm
The whole thing about the poles shifting their polarity is based upon some very wrong assumptions. Yes, the poles were in different locations many, many eons ago but that has to do with the speed an rotational direction of our mother's molten iron core. It had nothing to do with her suddenly rearranging her lands and waters.

Might find this interesting regarding magnetic pole reversal and history of..

http://www.geomag.bgs.ac.uk/reversals.html

What do we mean by a magnetic reversal or a magnetic 'flip' of the Earth?
The Earth has a magnetic field, as can be seen by using a magnetic compass. It is mainly generated in the very hot molten core of the planet and has probably existed throughout most of the Earth's lifetime. The magnetic field is largely that of a dipole, by which we mean that it has one North pole and one South pole. At these places, a compass needle will point straight down, or up, respectively. It is often described as being similar in nature to the field of a bar (e.g. fridge) magnet. However there is much small-scale variation in the Earth's field, which is quite different from that of a bar magnet. In any event, we can say that there are currently two poles observed on the surface of the Earth, one in the Northern hemisphere and one in the Southern hemisphere.

By magnetic reversal, or 'flip', we mean the process by which the North pole is transformed into a South pole and the South pole becomes a North pole. Interestingly, the magnetic field may sometimes only undergo an 'excursion', rather than a reversal. Here, it suffers a large decrease in its overall strength, that is, the force that moves the compass needle. During an excursion the field does not reverse, but later regenerates itself with the same polarity, that is, North remains North and South remains South.

Back to the top.

How often do reversals occur?
As a matter of geological record, the Earth's magnetic field has undergone numerous reversals of polarity. We can see this in the magnetic patterns found in volcanic rocks, especially those recovered from the ocean floors. In the last 10 million years, there have been, on average, 4 or 5 reversals per million years. At other times in Earth's history, for example during the Cretaceous era, there have been much longer periods when no reversals occurred. Reversals are not predictable and are certainly not periodic in nature. Hence we can only speak about the average reversal interval.

Back to the top.

Is the Earth's magnetic field reversing now? How do we know?
Measurements have been made of the Earth's magnetic field more or less continuously since about 1840. Some measurements even go back to the 1500s, for example at Greenwich in London. If we look at the trend in the strength of the magnetic field over this time (for example the so-called 'dipole moment' shown in the graph below) we can see a downward trend. Indeed projecting this forward in time would suggest zero dipole moment in about 1500-1600 years time. This is one reason why some people believe the field may be in the early stages of a reversal. We also know from studies of the magnetisation of minerals in ancient clay pots that the Earth's magnetic field was approximately twice as strong in Roman times as it is now.

Dipole Moment from 1900-2000

Even so, the current strength of the magnetic field is as high as it has been in the last 50,000 years, even if it is nearly 800,000 years since the last reversal. Also, bearing in mind what we said about 'excursions' above, and knowing what we do about the properties of mathematical models of the magnetic field, it is far from clear we can easily extrapolate to 1500 years hence.

Back to the top.

How quickly do the poles 'flip'?
We have no complete record of the history of any reversal, so any claims we can make are mostly on the basis of mathematical models of the field behaviour and partly on limited evidence from rocks that retain an imprint of the ancient magnetic field present when they were formed. For example, the mathematical simulations seem to suggest that a full reversal may take about one to several thousand years to complete. This is fast by geological standards but slow on a human time scale.

Back to the top.

What happens during a reversal? What do we see at the Earth's surface?
As above, we have limited evidence from geological measurements about the patterns of change in the magnetic field during a reversal. We might expect to see, based on models of the field run on supercomputers, a far more complicated field pattern at the Earth's surface, with perhaps more than one North and South pole at any given time. We might also see the poles 'wandering' with time from their current positions towards and across the equator. The overall strength of the field, anywhere on the Earth, may be no more than a tenth of its strength now.

Back to the top.

Is there any danger to life?
Almost certainly not. The Earth's magnetic field is contained within a region of space, known as the magnetosphere, by the action of the solar wind. The magnetosphere deflects many, but not all, of the high-energy particles that flow from the Sun in the solar wind and from other sources in the galaxy. Sometimes the Sun is particularly active, for example when there are many sunspots, and it may send clouds of high-energy particles in the direction of the Earth. During such solar 'flares' and 'coronal mass ejections', astronauts in Earth orbit may need extra shelter to avoid higher doses of radiation. Therefore we know that the Earth's magnetic field offers only some, rather than complete, resistance to particle radiation from space. Indeed high-energy particles can actually be accelerated within the magnetosphere.

At the Earth's surface, the atmosphere acts as an extra blanket to stop all but the most energetic of the solar and galactic radiation. In the absence of a magnetic field, the atmosphere would still stop most of the radiation. Indeed the atmosphere shields us from high-energy radiation as effectively as a concrete layer some 13 feet thick.

Human beings have been on the Earth for a number of million years, during which there have been many reversals, and there is no obvious correlation between human development and reversals. Similarly, reversal patterns do not match patterns in species extinction during geological history.

Some animals, such as pigeons and whales, may use the Earth's magnetic field for direction finding. Assuming that a reversal takes a number of thousand years, that is, over many generations of each species, each animal may well adapt to the changing magnetic environment, or develop different methods of navigation.

Back to the top.

I'm interested in a more technical description. Can you tell me more?
The source of the magnetic field is the iron-rich liquid outer core of the Earth. This liquid moves in complex ways as a result of the convection of the heat deep within the core and of the rotation of the planet. The motion of the core fluid is continuous and never stops, even during a reversal. It can only stop when the energy source fails. Heat is produced at least partly because of the solidification of the liquid core onto the solid inner core that sits at the centre of the Earth. This process has operated continuously over billions of years. At the top of the liquid core, some 3000 km beneath our feet and below the rocky mantle, the fluid may travel at horizontal speeds of tens of kilometres per year. The motion of this metal fluid across existing magnetic field lines of force produces electrical currents and these, in turn, generate more magnetic field. This is a process known as advection. To balance any growth of the field, and thus stabilise what we call the 'geodynamo', we need diffusion, where field 'leaks' away from the core and is destroyed. Ultimately, the core fluid flow produces a complicated magnetic field pattern at the Earth's surface with a complicated time variation.

Simulations of the geodynamo on supercomputers have demonstrated the complex nature of the field and its behaviour over time. Simulations have also revealed reversals in the polarity, where the magnetic North pole is replaced by a South pole, and vice versa. In such simulations, the strength of the main dipole appears to weaken, perhaps to about 10% of its normal value (but not vanish) and the existing poles may wander across the globe and be joined by other temporary North and South magnetic poles (the 'non-dipole field').

The solid iron inner core of the Earth has been shown in these simulations to be important in controlling the reversal process. Because it is a solid, the inner core can't generate magnetic field by advection, but any field that is generated in the fluid outer core can diffuse, or spread, into the inner core. The field generation process (advection) in the outer core seems to regularly attempt to reverse. But unless the field locked into the inner core first diffuses away, a true reversed field cannot become established throughout the core. Essentially the inner core resists any 'new' field diffusing in and perhaps only one in every ten such reversal attempts is successful.

It is worth stressing that these results, while fascinating in themselves, are not known to be strictly true of the 'real' Earth. However, we have mathematical models of the Earth's magnetic field for the last 400 years, with early models based largely on observations made by mariners engaged in merchant and naval shipping. From these models and extrapolating down into the Earth, it is known that regions of reversed flux at the core-mantle boundary have grown over time. In these regions the compass points in the opposite direction, in or out of the core, compared to that of surrounding areas. It is the growth in area of such a reversed flux patch under the south Atlantic that is primarily responsible for the decay in the main dipolar field. This reverse patch is also responsible for the minimum in field strength called the South Atlantic Anomaly, centred over North-east Brazil. In this region energetic particles can approach Earth more closely, causing increased radiation risk to low Earth orbit satellites.

There is much work yet to be done in understanding the properties of the deep Earth. This is a world where the crushing forces and core temperatures similar to that of the surface of the Sun take our scientific understanding to the limit.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: tiago2010 on April 15, 2010, 02:44:29 am: About the Mayas, If someone speaks spanish. This is a good source, if im trustworthy..

http://www.masacalli.com/2009/02/caminando-en-el-2012.html

About the Maya info, good sources:

- La Tierra del Faisán y el Venado (Antonio Mediz)
- Los Nuevos Videntes (Carlos Jesus Castillejos)
- Chilam Balam (sacred book from the "Balams" the Jaguar Warriors from the Peninsula of Yucatan)
- El Vuelo de la Serpiente Emplumada (written in 1948 by Armando Cosni)
- The Sacred book (translated by spaniers but.. uff it has a lot of info) Popol Vuh

The thing is that the 2012, is based in one of the 5 sacred calendars from the Yucatan Mayas. But ALSO, you have the calendars from Mayan Quiches from Guatemala, the Mayas Tzeltal from Chiapas... etc...

The interpretation of 2012, is a erroneus interpretation made by a Mexican new agers. There's no catastrophe. That is a mental colonialism interpretation based in the bible and the apocalipsis...

Has one good friend from Yucatan once told me: "Once, i asked to a old Mayan who was a proud farmer from a linage family of Balams, near to Balankanché: What are you going to do for Diciember in the 2012" He just replied... "Well... as we do everyday, wake up and see if the milpa is going well... uhm.. but if its sunday, maybe I'm not going to wake up with the Sun, just a little bit later, to share with my old lady, and go waking to the church as we do every sunday"
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: fredvoss on August 30, 2010, 04:48:56 pm: Dear forum,

several persons by relation to European astrologic say, the mayan not say these things.

In the German-language countries we have theatre and trouble with so called Mayan
secrets and wisdoms since many years.

The theatre around the year 2012 are part of making money of New Age persons.

Another problem are the ufo-followers. They also handling around 2012. They teach
that only the help of Ufos can help us. They refuse any action to make democracy or
to really to help Indigenous Nations.

greetings
fredvoss
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: star777 on October 05, 2010, 04:37:04 am: It is the same circus here of courses and 'information' evenings about this stuff.

As usual those peddling new age rubbish are telling people to cop out of self-determination and throw their hands up because of the Apocalypse (of the moment)....it always comes back to people giving up their right to determine the path of their own lives to higher powers and forces. In my opinion, christianity encourages and breeds this kind of learned helplessness and then leaves people vulnerable to idiots selling courses once they drop out of the mainstream cults (i.e. churches and other organised religion) etc. The number of times I've heard people talk about 'where they're going to be when the shift happens...it's all so dismal....everyone wants a shift or a change but what are they actually DOING about it?? Nope, instead let's just wait passively for the Mayans to come back in their Merkabah light veichles to save us all............ ???
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: apukjij on October 05, 2010, 04:30:24 pm: people think this mayan crap is not harmful, well i beg to differ. i happened to hear my little cousin and his friends talking about what they are going to do when the world ends in 2K12, there were confident but fearful, a Pipe Carrier here in Eskasoni has related to me that he is hearing other children are very afraid of all this. it has contaminated the consciousness of our people...
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: amorYcohetes on October 07, 2010, 04:38:50 pm: Apukjij, you might point them to scholarship on the meaning of the Mayan calendar cycles done by academics who are themselves Maya. Some of the posters in a similar thread under Research Needed had mentioned resources. Here is my post (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2616.msg22772#msg22772) which had a link to a book that might be of interest.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Robin on October 25, 2010, 04:12:37 pm: I'm probably going to be doing the same thing as many Mayans will be doing when their calendar runs out...I'll get a new calendar.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Peasant on December 11, 2010, 12:50:54 pm: What another Mayan priest has to say about the 2012 hoax:

Quote
Many have begun to take seriously the "prediction" that the world will implode within the next two years. But according to Mayan Elder Grandfather Don Alejandro Cirilo, all we need to fear about December 21, 2012 is a slight chance of cloud cover, and "heart attacks caused by too much thinking".
http://www.ipsterraviva.net/UN/currentNew.aspx?new=8267

Quote
He says we may still have 40 or 50 years to go before the 5th world begins. What? I can almost hear the silent groans coming from the chat board. Wandering Wolf repeats that we may have another 40-50 years to go. He has just told us that 2012 has nothing to do with the Gregorian calendar and therefore we are waiting for something that is not coming, at least not so soon as some people expect.
http://jlnavarro.blogspot.com/2010/08/wandering-wolfs-esotv-webcast-message.html
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: tecpaocelotl on December 12, 2010, 02:29:40 pm: Quote from: Crescent on December 11, 2010, 12:50:54 pm
What another Mayan priest has to say about the 2012 hoax:

Quote
Many have begun to take seriously the "prediction" that the world will implode within the next two years. But according to Mayan Elder Grandfather Don Alejandro Cirilo, all we need to fear about December 21, 2012 is a slight chance of cloud cover, and "heart attacks caused by too much thinking".
http://www.ipsterraviva.net/UN/currentNew.aspx?new=8267

Quote
He says we may still have 40 or 50 years to go before the 5th world begins. What? I can almost hear the silent groans coming from the chat board. Wandering Wolf repeats that we may have another 40-50 years to go. He has just told us that 2012 has nothing to do with the Gregorian calendar and therefore we are waiting for something that is not coming, at least not so soon as some people expect.
http://jlnavarro.blogspot.com/2010/08/wandering-wolfs-esotv-webcast-message.html

First article you posted has a lot of new agers as reference.

Second link, most of it has been discussed here:

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3042.0
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Teacher on December 28, 2010, 02:41:53 am: At the risk of stepping on toes, I'd like to chime in here.

In 2007 I spent a bit of time in Mexico -- primarily with my friends' family in Cuernavaca, but did a lot of traveling throughout. I met some Mayan people and asked them about the 2012 calendar story. They chuckled and said that calendars cannot be made without the calendar makers. As the Spaniards killed most off, there weren't more calendars to make. They believed that that time would be one of renewal and a new era for THEM not the whole planet. They also thought that people were nuts for believing that their story had anything to do with everyone else. Now, were they just saying that to make me feel better? I don't know, but it was a fun story and it was really cool meeting them. :)
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: aya on March 04, 2012, 07:25:28 am: I learned from the Mayan culture everything that is available, and the Maya NEVER said the world would end, they always said that the cycle of time would end. And their understanding of time and ours is ... not comparable.
So the "end of the world" stuff is inherently wrong
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: educatedindian on December 05, 2012, 06:16:19 pm: The Russian govt issued a statement because so many Russians believe the 2012 nonsense.

-----
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/03/russia-mayan-doomsday_n_2233342.html?utm_hp_ref=world--

If you're growing increasingly worried the Mayan doomsday is approaching, you're not alone -- and you've likely got a Russian comrade suffering from the same fears.

The New York Times reports the end-of-the-world-anxiety has Russians so tightly in its grip that the Russian government felt the need to address the situation.

According to the Times' report, Russia's minister of emergency situations Vladimir Puchkov reassured the country's citizens on Friday he is sure the world will not end in December and that "he had access to methods of monitoring what is occurring on the planet Earth.”

Pushkov did admit, however, that "Russians were still vulnerable to blizzards, ice storms, tornadoes, floods, trouble with transportation and food supply, breakdowns in heat, electricity and water supply," the Times added.

Dec. 21, 2012 marks the end of the Mayan calendar, and some doomsday believers predict the world will come to a calamitous end that day.

SPACE.com explains:

These fears are based on misinterpretations of the Mayan calendar. On the 21st, the date of the winter solstice, a calendar cycle called the 13th b'ak'tun comes to an end. Although Maya scholars agree that the ancient Maya would not have seen this day as apocalyptic, rumors have spread that a cosmic event may end life on Earth on that day.

Although scientists have tried hard to counter the apocalyptic predictions, thousands of people across Russia are preparing for the worst. According to Russia Today, some have stocked their back rooms and balconies with food, fuel and other supplies, while others have decided to move away from large cities.

The website even reports a Siberian company has decided to seize the moment by selling end-of-the-world-survival kits, which include medication, heart medicine, soap, candles and matches, vodka, a can of fish, a pack of buckwheat, a bottle of vodka, a notepad and pencil, a game of cards and a rope. While the company has already sold more than 1,000 kits, it emphasized that its product is to be taken "with a pinch of salt," RT.com writes.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on December 07, 2012, 04:55:07 am: http://intercontinentalcry.org/maya-banned-from-performing-ceremonies-at-ancestral-temples-in-mexico/

Mexican authorities have banned Maya spiritual leaders from performing ceremonies at their ancestral temples, which are about to be overrun by a curious assortment of conspiracy theorists, dooms-dayers, new-agers and well-intentioned tourists who just want to be apart of the festivities.

The Ceremonies are meant to mark the end of the Maya long-count calendar, which began 13 Baktun (cycles) ago. Under the Greco-Roman Calender, that's about 3112 BC.

Contrary to popular (mis)belief, the end of the long-count calendar is being viewed as something positive. As Mayan priest Jose Manrique Esquive recently pointed out, the current Baktun, which began around 1618, has been drenched by a continuous reign of misery that included the introduction of European disease, culture and language being erased and entire populations being extinguished.

"This is the ending of an era for the Maya, an era which has been very intense for us, in which we have had suffering and pain," said Manrique Esquivel, adding "we are praying the wars, the conflicts, the hunger to end."

Despite their intentions, the government is refusing to let any Maya traditional perform their ceremonies inside Chichen Itza, Coban, Tulum and other sites that their ancestors built.

"We would like to do these ceremonies in the archaeological sites, but unfortunately they won't let us enter," continued Manrique Esquivel. "It makes us angry, but that's the way it is ... we perform our rituals in patios, in fields, in vacant lots, wherever we can."

The press director for the government's National Institute of Anthropology and History claims there are two reasons for the ban: "In part it is for visitor safety, and also for preservation of the sites, especially on dates when there are massive numbers of visitors... Many of the groups that want to hold ceremonies bring braziers and want to burn incense, and that simply isn't allowed."

Of course that's just the excuse. The government would much rather keep the Maya on the sidelines since they are orchestrating a massive commercial spectacle for tens of thousands of people, many of whom are are clinging to delusional hopes and irrational fears about what's going to happen at the end of 13 Baktun--December 21, 2012.

However, the Maya are still going to be allowed to visit the sites along with the tourists, but they will likely have to pay to get in, just like everyone else.

Meanwhile, as the Maya proceed with their ceremonies, shops in a Siberian city continue to sell Apocalypse kits; Beijing residents are stocking up on crackers, bottled water, and life preservers; in southwest France, the town of Bugarch prepares for a possible deluge of visitors who believe that a mountain could save them from the end of the world; and all the big corporate media services happily continue to spread the mania--all of which stems from little more than basic ignorance toward Indigenous perceptions and realities.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 07, 2012, 08:51:42 pm: Anyone familiar with the people in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdsD-nm33k0&feature=player_embedded

The woman, Lydia Trauttenberg, is involved in the Crystal Skull Scam http://www.crystalskulls.com/crystal-skull-events.html
The Guatemalan man has been referred to as Tata Apolinario. He may be involved in some kind of upcoming conference about 2012. He is being represented as a carrier of the prophecies. The video was made in Europe.
I think this is also him: Tata Apolinario Chile Pixtun http://www.meetup.com/Austin-Life-Changed-Energy-Alternative-Healing/events/65959672/

There is discussion about this happening on this Neopagan blog: http://wildhunt.org/2012/12/as-tourists-stream-in-mayan-leaders-barred-from-sacred-sites.html

Photos: http://www.whoisjoshuashapiro.com/crystalskullevents/Festival_Photos1.html

I was wondering if this guy is a curandero, which would make the money issues less clear. But the above link shows they are going to Europe to lead "Mayan Fire Ceremonies."
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Epiphany on December 08, 2012, 05:08:47 am: Some leads on Apolinario Chile Pixtun

Quote
OmeAkaEhekatl Erick Gonzalez was born in Guatemala and moved to the U.S. with his parents when he was 11 years old. In 1978 he was adopted by the Mexiko Teotlkalli Kalpull Koatlkalko and the teacher Tlakaelel and given the name OmeAkaEhekatl in 1978. He was made an Aj Q’ij (Mayan Spiritual Guide and Daykeeper) in 1994 with the Great Confederation of AjQ’ijab of the Original Peoples of Guatemala and received his bundle through the teacher Apolinario Chile Pixtun
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3420.msg30830#msg30830 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3420.msg30830#msg30830)

Article from October 2009:

Quote
Apolinario Chile Pixtun is tired of being bombarded with frantic questions about the Mayan calendar supposedly "running out" on Dec. 21, 2012. After all, it's not the end of the world.

Or is it?

Definitely not, the Mayan elder insists. "I came back from England last year and, man, they had me fed up with this stuff."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33261483/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/even-maya-are-getting-sick-hype/#.UMLIw3ewWSo (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33261483/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/even-maya-are-getting-sick-hype/#.UMLIw3ewWSo)
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 08, 2012, 06:37:59 am: One of the non-Native people posted on The Wild Hunt thread that: "Tata Apolinario, the elder in the video, is hosting a gathering of indigenous people from all over the Americas, both north and south, sponsored by the Mayan confederation."

Since none of us had heard of him or this gathering, we made some inquiries among the usual networks today. We checked in with some of the Indigenous traditional spiritual leaders who are most often invited to legitimate interfaith events. So far no one has heard of him, or this conference.
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: moreinfo on December 08, 2012, 05:52:20 pm: here is apolinario listed as to speak at one of erick gonzalez' events at a place he calls deer mtn in northern california

this is just one of many events where apolinario is listed to speak at erick gonzalez' personal events where there is always a fee to for participants to attend

http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs094/1101842477796/archive/1105256702205.html

when a person researches how spiritual frauds run their profit motivated business' , it is interesting that a pattern appears on how they are connected and intertwined to make themselves look legit to the unsuspecting public.

also interesting is how they have used and piggybacked real spiritual/ceremonial peoples names in their advertisements as possible attendees to their events

some spiritual frauds also advertise for their business using photos from real events with real ceremonial/spiritual people that have attended to help make themselves look legit to help to lure people to attend their own events,
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Pono Aloha on December 08, 2012, 09:28:38 pm: Quote
also interesting is how they have used and piggybacked real spiritual/ceremonial peoples names in their advertisements as possible attendees to their events

We recently found a website of a person teaching the fake "Hawaiian spirituality" of Huna advertising the participation of a respected Hawaiian teacher. When the Hawaiian was contacted, he had no idea he was listed and was not in fact teaching. We also found a picture of this Hawaiian on the website that had been taken with the Huna teacher when the Huna person had met him. It is for this reason our native teachers need to be extremely careful of who takes their pictures. We also learned that this Huna teacher often advertises that various Hawaiians are participating in his workshops, then after everyone is there having paid their money, they are told that at the last minute the Hawaiian couldn't come. We have a word for this - hewa! Wrong!
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Sparks on November 06, 2022, 02:13:31 am: Quote from: educatedindian on October 11, 2009, 04:26:00 pm
2012 isn't the end of the world, Mayans insist

AP – In this photo taken Oct. 3, 2009, Guatemalan Mayan Indian elder Apolinario Chile Pixtun poses for a portrait …

MEXICO CITY – Apolinario Chile Pixtun is tired of being bombarded with frantic questions about the Mayan calendar supposedly "running out" on Dec. 21, 2012. After all, it's not the end of the world.

In addition to this 2009 post Apolinario Chile Pixtun was mentioned in some posts in this thread in December, 2012. Now there is a separate topic about him which I am updating because I found new and interesting material:

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4286.0 [Apolinario Chile Pixtun]
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Mirror on February 07, 2025, 04:37:34 pm: I enjoyed seeing all the websites go empty, silent or dead concerning this 2012 trip. I haven’t rewatched this set of videos, having seen them because my sister had sent them to me.
My memory serves me that Ahkima stated that the timing was a personal thing, of which I agree.
I’ll probably watch them again now that it’s resurfaced in my frontal lobes, ;)
I blame this site! lol
It’s what I was searching for when I found the video I posted immediately before this.

I haven’t found the embed code or button for this site yet, and I really think this video deserves it.
He kinda rambles on a bit, about unrelated topics, I can’t remember which of the set he nails my quote. But I do remember his fireworks in his words, I’ll enjoy reporting back after I’ve seen it again.
I may even make my own piki and really frost some mountain tops.
Now that I’m in this area of my brain, I’m finding all kinds of firewood to stack.
My next post might get a little edgy ;)

https://youtu.be/TuVZhZQbWQ8?si=DkAqkClVGbTcvP1m
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: milehighsalute on February 07, 2025, 05:10:57 pm: Quote from: Mirror on February 07, 2025, 04:37:34 pm
I enjoyed seeing all the websites go empty, silent or dead concerning this 2012 trip. I haven’t rewatched this set of videos, having seen them because my sister had sent them to me.
My memory serves me that Ahkima stated that the timing was a personal thing, of which I agree.
I’ll probably watch them again now that it’s resurfaced in my frontal lobes, ;)
I blame this site! lol
It’s what I was searching for when I found the video I posted immediately before this.

I haven’t found the embed code or button for this site yet, and I really think this video deserves it.
He kinda rambles on a bit, about unrelated topics, I can’t remember which of the set he nails my quote. But I do remember his fireworks in his words, I’ll enjoy reporting back after I’ve seen it again.
I may even make my own piki and really frost some mountain tops.
Now that I’m in this area of my brain, I’m finding all kinds of firewood to stack.
My next post might get a little edgy ;)

https://youtu.be/TuVZhZQbWQ8?si=DkAqkClVGbTcvP1m
i dont think any real mayan descended people were even pushing that envelope to the masses

but as always the case....non-ndnz would rather learn ndn stuff from other non-ndnz than actual ndnz themselves
Title: Re: Mayans Say World WONT End in 2012
Post by: Mirror on February 07, 2025, 06:27:50 pm: Quote from: milehighsalute on February 07, 2025, 05:10:57 pm
Quote from: Mirror on February 07, 2025, 04:37:34 pm
I enjoyed seeing all the websites go empty, silent or dead concerning this 2012 trip. I haven’t rewatched this set of videos, having seen them because my sister had sent them to me.
My memory serves me that Ahkima stated that the timing was a personal thing, of which I agree.
I’ll probably watch them again now that it’s resurfaced in my frontal lobes, ;)
I blame this site! lol
It’s what I was searching for when I found the video I posted immediately before this.

I haven’t found the embed code or button for this site yet, and I really think this video deserves it.
He kinda rambles on a bit, about unrelated topics, I can’t remember which of the set he nails my quote. But I do remember his fireworks in his words, I’ll enjoy reporting back after I’ve seen it again.
I may even make my own piki and really frost some mountain tops.
Now that I’m in this area of my brain, I’m finding all kinds of firewood to stack.
My next post might get a little edgy ;)

https://youtu.be/TuVZhZQbWQ8?si=DkAqkClVGbTcvP1m
i dont think any real mayan descended people were even pushing that envelope to the masses

but as always the case....non-ndnz would rather learn ndn stuff from other non-ndnz than actual ndnz themselves

It’s like a prize in a pie, except the prize is left out. Every piece of culture everywhere has to be evaluated thusly. The colonists assumed we’re just so dumb we’d tell them all we could for a slice.
For instance, I could translate every “petroglyph” in that southwestern states, but would never, not even once. I’ll just say, the anthropology departments got it so wrong it’s laughable. IDAF who anyone is or what their qualifications are. They did it using their own experience. And the learned folks, won’t even acknowledge a mistake of the past. The highest and most famous scientists will be flogged for getting it, and just make a causal observation that goes against the narrative.

It’s the fundamental flaw in western science, the leaders of each department have their profit niche and they don’t share or deviate.

Case in point, they found this over a hundred years ago, when it started to come to light it took major institutions decades to even consider it. And when they do, all hell is breaking loose.
Every narrative of their own cultures is ripped seams, it’s so ghastly listening to them wringing their hands about it.
It doesn’t stop here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWVA6TeUKYU