I speak with Kenny pretty regularly and I have not, even one time, heard him say any thing against Ben simply living in the area.
Just as he does not say any thing to any one of another race for inhabiting the area.
What, I think, Kenny's real objection to is the fact that Ben is conducting a Ceremony, which is traditional to the Ute, but not the Choctaw, as far as I am aware, and is doing so in traditional Ute territory.
As such, Ben is making and proclaiming himself as a leader and representative of the Native population of the area.
He is not endorsed, nor even accepted by the NDN community there.
The argument that the land is no longer in NDN possession doesnt pan out as neither is the property that the white house occupies.
That sentence, was also the one, among a couple others, which stuck out the most to me and also to several others whom I have spoke to since this statement from Carnes came out.
And yes, I do find it a bit ironic that Ben would complain about Obama doing something that he himself is doing.
I have personally heard Ben use the argument that he is justified in his actions regardless of the opinion of the Ute Nation, because as he said, "If Creator didn't want me to be doing what I do, where I do it, I would not have been able to have the means to do so."
That may not be an exact quote, but I guarantee you it were words to that exact same effect.
Do I agree with the Gov occupying and in fact governing over NDN lands?......Of course not, and not just lands in D.C.
However, it is come to be expected for those with the more superioristic Euro type morals and values to conduct themselves in this way.
Shall we go so far as to say that we should expect those same values from Carnes? After all he does claim to be tradish rather than totally assimilated doesn't he?
As for this being a proper discussion for this thread, or group even, as many of you know, exploiters and victimizers are the only people who are actively seeking out others who are desperate to make some kind of connection to the/a Native community.
Noone else is going to be out beating the bushes looking for the folks, therefor, often times it is the exploiters with whom these folks first come in contact with.
If there is any kind of a question about ones intentions in regards to this or their character, You are damn right....research is needed!
Myself and others feel like Ben is losing it and is becoming dangerous, not only to himself, but to others as well as reflecting negatively on the NDN community in general.
It is not a dishonorable act, to try and bring awareness to otherwise unknowing, but sincere, individuals as to the possibility of unwittingly getting involved in a potentially very bad situation in their quest to connect.
If, after being advised to the possible perils, that person goes on to put themselves into a predicament, while unfortunate, that person can not say they were not made aware of the possible dangers, whether it be legal troubles, victimized financially or in some other manner.
Think for a minute, of Sunbear, and in another context, of Anna Mae Aquash.
Sometimes it is best to speak up so that others may make their own more informed decision as to what path it is that they wish to travel.
After all, he does claim to be tradish, does he not?
John,
I am going to be completely civil with you here as long as you stay that way with me. As long a we can both agree to do that, then I see no reason why we can not discuss this as grown men.
I speak with Kenny pretty regularly and I have not, even one time, heard him say any thing against Ben simply living in the area.
Now you might be right in this regards, however I have read on several ocassions where Kenny complains about what Ben is doing on "Ute lands." This goes back to what I have already said in regards to proper protocol in conducting ceremonies on the traditional lands of another person. At best I could see Ben being viewed as rude, etc. However that is as far as it goes since Ben is operating on private land.
Do I think a traditional person should work this out with the tribes who's lands they might be conducting ceremony on? Well yes I do, but that is how I was taught and things might be different for Ben. Plus I still feel there are mitigating circumstances here that either you don't know about, not being told about etc.
This however does not however equate to Ben being an exploiter which is what this thread is about. If there is respect issue based on traditional things I can see somebody having an issue with that possibly. However it is being blown out of proportion here.
What, I think, Kenny's real objection to is the fact that Ben is conducting a Ceremony, which is traditional to the Ute, but not the Choctaw, as far as I am aware, and is doing so in traditional Ute territory.
Okay in this circumstance you would almost be right, but there again are mitigating circumstance you are not realizing.
The Sundance is not just a Ute ceremony, but is one done by many people on the plains. Now days I even know of Navajo who go into Lakota lands and Sundance with them since they have been invited to do so. As long as the elders of the people performing the Sundance are okay with Navajo in those Sundances then it is not an issue.
Now Ben become a Sundance by way of Chief Tayac, and I do believe this all has it's roots with permission from Lakota elders. So as long as Ben has permission from them to be doing that Sundance where he lives there is no issue. There is no more issue in that then the Lakota I know in California who do Lakota style sweats on Yokut lands.
As long as Ben has permission from Tayac and whatever elders they are all associated with, Kenny Frost has no say.
Again it is just a possible matter of respect being given to the Ute and nothing more. Even in that I do believe there is more to this then Kenny Frost says.
As such, Ben is making and proclaiming himself as a leader and representative of the Native population of the area.
I have talked to Ben on on the phone, and have never once heard him say he is the leader of the population in Colorado. Nor have I ever seen him use that in his writing ever.
As a Sundance Chief, and spokesperson for the LPDOC he was in fact an Indian in a leadership position. There is no argument there at all, especially since he was appointed as such.
He is not endorsed, nor even accepted by the NDN community there.
Who says this exactly? Do you have any sources to prove that? As you are aware, I have known people in Colorodo AIM, and they do know who Ben is. When I spoke to them on this matter they had nothing but good words to say about Ben.
So I would like you to come forth with more proof of this other then the words of one man (Kenny Frost)
The argument that the land is no longer in NDN possession doesnt pan out as neither is the property that the white house occupies.
How so? Do you see white men asking tribal leaders to build churches or towns on their traditional lands?
Do you ask permission to hunt on traditional lands of the people who's lands you lived on. Do you ask then permission every time you move into a new home, or build something on a certain land?
I know you do not, and neither do I? I seriously doubt even most NDN's do that to be honest. Some may go to get the house or whatever blessed, but that is as far as it goes most the time.
Ben is on private land, and not tribal lands. At best this is a possible matter of respect and nothing more.
I have personally heard Ben use the argument that he is justified in his actions regardless of the opinion of the Ute Nation, because as he said, "If Creator didn't want me to be doing what I do, where I do it, I would not have been able to have the means to do so."
Would you care to explain to me and others here though your personal experiences with elders, spiritual leaders etc?
I don't say this to knock on you John, but I just wonder how much of this that you try to speak on is coming from things you know from personal experience.
I am sure you can say from Kenny Frost, but that does not really count to me since that is just one man you have met recently. I want to know if you have had elders that have sat down and taught you all of these things you are speaking of. If they are Ute, then how come we never hear of them, but only of Kenny Frost?
Plus you say you are Cherokee, but learning from Utes now is it? I don't have an issue with it, but it seems sorta hypocritical when you go after Ben for sorta similar things.
A lot of the subject matter in this thread should come from things learned from off the net by NDN elders, spiritual leaders, members of the community etc, and not from people on the net who go only by books or what they read.
Now I am not saying I know all of this stuff super well, but I have spoken here based on things taught to me over my life by real elders and not people met on the net.
So I am wondering how your real world experience and knowledge fits into what you are saying???
Do I agree with the Gov occupying and in fact governing over NDN lands?......Of course not, and not just lands in D.C.
However, it is come to be expected for those with the more superioristic Euro type morals and values to conduct themselves in this way.
I agree with you completely, but it has no bearing on this topic other then because of such things caused by the arrival of Europeans that has greatly altered the history of natives here. The bottom line is because of this, Ben is on private land and not tribal lands. It keeps this a respect issue at best.
Shall we go so far as to say that we should expect those same values from Carnes? After all he does claim to be tradish rather than totally assimilated doesn't he?
I think I have explained all of this to you in my above replies to you John.
What is your definition of traditional anyhow? Some say you can't be when you do something like start up a car. It seems that the word traditional will get you a thousands diffrent answers sometimes. Sorta like asking the definition of what an NDN is.
As for this being a proper discussion for this thread, or group even, as many of you know, exploiters and victimizers are the only people who are actively seeking out others who are desperate to make some kind of connection to the/a Native community
True, but this has nothing to do where Ben lives or holds ceremonies. The charges being levied against him here are still unproven.
If there is any kind of a question about ones intentions in regards to this or their character, You are damn right....research is needed!
Myself and others feel like Ben is losing it and is becoming dangerous, not only to himself, but to others as well as reflecting negatively on the NDN community in general.
It is not a dishonorable act, to try and bring awareness to otherwise unknowing, but sincere, individuals as to the possibility of unwittingly getting involved in a potentially very bad situation in their quest to connect.
If, after being advised to the possible perils, that person goes on to put themselves into a predicament, while unfortunate, that person can not say they were not made aware of the possible dangers, whether it be legal troubles, victimized financially or in some other manner.
Think for a minute, of Sunbear, and in another context, of Anna Mae Aquash.
Sometimes it is best to speak up so that others may make their own more informed decision as to what path it is that they wish to travel.
Most of this is just opinion on your part rather then fact, hence the usage of the word "feel" by you. In something like this you can feel many things, but what you feel does not make them so.
This is a thread in the section "research needed," and so nothing here has been proven with no doubt to it being true or not. So most of what should be posted should be fact rather then opinion.
Things posted like this almost seem as if they are trying to lead people on with opinions and feelings being presented as facts, when they are not.
So I think it best not to speak of Ben or anyone put here as if they are doing what they are accused of, until it has been proven they are or not.
