The United People of the Cherokee Nation

[debbieredbear]

There was a white guy, locally, who was seling "authentic Indian carvings" that he made. He said his were authentic because he was making exact replicas of things. As opposed to people like my husband who were doing new styles with old designs I guess. Anyway, my husband reported him to the FBI under the Arts and Crafts act. What he was doing was fraud. Shortly after that, his resume changed to say he made "authentic STYLE art." Not as many people wanted to buy hs stuff after that and he moved on. He was never fined or anything, but I guess the threat was enough to make him back off.

[frederica]

Needs more Caffeine,  Maybe you should contact Albert of Indiana AIM. He could tell you what has been accomplished, and what still needs to be accomplished. Plus, he is well aware of all that goes on in Indiana. Just a suggestion. Many times it's easier to have some direction that going it alone. frederica

[Needs More Caffeine]

Frederica,

Thanks for the info.  I'm heavily involved in other American Indian groups focused on higher education issues, some at a statewide level, but I had never heard that there was an Indiana AIM and am surprised, since I would think we would run into one another at some of the statewide events.

Anyway, I've found their web page now and will be in touch.

[BlueWolf]

I find it quite interesting the comments posted about The United People of the Cherokee Nation.

First of all, the Great Spirit is the only One who can decide who is "Cherokee" and who is not.  Of the 250,000 members of the Oklahoma Tribe, only a handful are full-blood and several thousand are between 1/16 to 1/4.  The majority are 1/32 or less.   Why is this the case?  I'll tell you.  If the Cherokee Tribe of Oklahoma put an emphasis on blood quantum, they would have no members!  The Eastern Cherokee Tribe does have a minimum blood quantum...1/16 if I'm not mistaken.

Okay, I became a member of The United People of the Cherokee Nation.  I have never paid any money to them.  I have never been asked to buy or pay anything.  If I wish, I can send a donation, but as of this date, I have not done that.

As for the birth certificate, you can blacken out all but your name if you wish.  They only need to see a legal document to prove your name, because they register you as a member.  This is no different than what any other tribe, federally recognized or not, requires of tribal members.  Just what do you people think are the requirements of becoming a member of the Cherokee Tribe of Oklahoma?  Besides having a ancestor on the Dawes Roll, do you not have to PROVE your descent from said ancestor.  Is not some of those proofs your birth certificate, death certificate, etc...

No, I don't really see the point in this discussion here. [Childish insult]

By the way, I'm 1/16 Cherokee and consider myself Cherokee and a Native American as well.  Native American, the way I use the term, means I'm mixed-blood.  In fact, I have Choctaw, Blackfoot, and Sioux running through my veins as well.  I'm also English, French, and German, with a wee bit of Irish too. 

A true Cherokee should never sadden the Great Spirit with [childish insult].  Even if they are mostly white or even if they are "wannabes".  So what!  We Cherokees are a peaceful tribe and certainly [childish insult].  We should feel honored that others want to follow the ways.

That's all I have to say to this.  Thanks for allowing me to share my opinion.

Blue Wolf

[WhiteWolf]

Sorry to be late to the party here. I would, like to interject some more information into this thread. I have emailed back and forth with Chief Speaks with Spirit regarding their group. I spoke with her directly since I had questions about the group. I found out that the group was a split off from another group whose leader, it turned out, was really a Mormon. He was collecting money from people and not sending out cards. He was using the money for his own purposes and not the good of the group. Chief Speaks with Spirits and others split off to start their own group. Their hope was to give a home for those Cherokee who were turned away by their own. I personally have heard stories from people who were trying to reconnect but were rudely turned away. Their intention is to eventually grow the group to be something like the NAACP or something like that where they will be able to help their own with scholarships, language immersion programs, etc. The use of the "Chiefs" is more to signify the leaders of a given area. They are Cherokee so they use Chief. Maybe to escape all of this scrutiny, it would have been better to use Team Leader or such. While they do allow whites to join with the group, it is in an associate capacity with no voting rights. Believe it or not, there are many whites who are not "plastic shaman" or "new agers" who are very interested in the culture and wisdom of the indigenous cultures. (I say indigenous only to avoid having to have said Native American and tagged wasichu, or saying Indian and being jumped on.) The sad part is that from what I have read and heard, in the past if a white wished to belong they would learn the ways and after a time there would be a ceremony from which point they would always be a member. Of course these days, John Ross, Quannah Parker, and of course, Will Thomas would never have become the great leaders. For those of you who don't know Will Thomas:
Will Thomas figures prominently in Cherokee history as one of the most important forces in the establishment of a Cherokee homeland at Qualla Boundary. As the first and only white man to serve as a Cherokee chief, he was uniquely qualified to represent the Eastern Band at a time when Indians were forbidden to own land. Later as a state senator, Thomas lobbied in Raleigh for Cherokee interests. He is described as “the best friend the Cherokees ever had??? on a monument dedicated to him near the Qualla Boundary.
As I post articles each day on my groups, I learn a little more. I have become saddened at the increasing rate that Nations are unenrolling people. I wrote an article and even sent a warning to the local Wampanoag tribe that sought to follow in the path of two of the other Wampanoag tribes in Mass. Be wary of blood quantum and think seven generations and what it will mean to them. Yes, I care, and yes, I am white.
Now as to Joe Bear Warrior, I have known Joe for a long time. He has a heart of gold. He works in a homeless shelter providing help for the less fortunate. He has reached out to many Native brothers and sisters who have entered the shelter. He took time to try to teach a young troubled Cherokee girl about her heritage and give her hope. Maybe the anger you saw was the frustration coming from a man with a heart the size of Alaska. He moderates groups on Yahoo and seeks to teach as best he can. He started the Prayer Warrior Society to gather people together to bring prayers for those in need. Maybe he isn't pure blood, maybe he doesn't have everything just right, but at least he is trying to make a difference. He does not judge people, he cares and he shares. When I was going through a difficult time, he called me on the phone to be sure I was okay and wanted to help. He is always reaching out and always trying to be the peacemaker. Injustice roils his blood and maybe that is what he felt was an attack on a group he feels could help many disenfranchised Cherokee people.
We should be striving to bring people together, all people, not alienating people. I have read many of the prophesies and they all say that now is the time. The Mayan Calendar is pointing to 2012. Science is backing that up in that it is predicted that the sun will be going solar maximum at that time. It may be worsened with the position of the earth on the equator of the galaxy. Instead of bickering over whose way is better, or more right, maybe we should be looking at ways to bring all people together in a common cause of surviving.
I saw someone also question "Chief" Usti Alitima, and I will speak also for her. She is someone who also is of good heart. She is always sending gifts of her art and sage sticks that she has hand made to people. When people are sick she sends them healing herbs with instructions in their use. She has never taken a thing from anyone, nor asks. Her "Christian" name is Susan Lake. She does live in Oregon and had my wife given her a little more advanced notice when she went out there on business, would have given her a personal tour of the area.
I think it is good that this forum is here but I caution the witch hunt mentality. Maybe contacting UPCN with your concerns and maybe suggestions on how they could better present themselves so as not to offend pure bloods. I am not a member of UPCN, but that is of my own choice. I was asked to join, but I have to walk my own path.
My heart to your heart, one heart, one spirit.

[educatedindian]

For the most part, I don't see anything that refutes what I earlier said about your group:

"I think the leaders of your group are a mix of the blind leading the blind, and the half blind trying to fleece the completely blind.

You could claim your heritage, but none of what you are doing is part of it. Hiding behind "I want my heritage" doesn't make taking people's money, or asking for information that could only be used for wrong, any less wrong thing to do. Your actions are wasichu, not Cherokee or NDN. For so called chiefs, you don't have much knowledge. You are doing things even your average NDN child knows are wrong.

The right way to claim your heritage would be to go to actual Cherokee and listen and learn, not try to set up a phony "tribe" with phony "clans."

But some of what I said I was glad you had enough courage to be honest about the wrongness some leaders were doing:

"I have emailed back and forth with Chief Speaks with Spirit regarding their group. I spoke with her directly since I had questions about the group. I found out that the group was a split off from another group whose leader, it turned out, was really a Mormon. He was collecting money from people and not sending out cards. He was using the money for his own purposes and not the good of the group. Chief Speaks with Spirits and others split off to start their own group. Their hope was to give a home for those Cherokee who were turned away by their own. I personally have heard stories from people who were trying to reconnect but were rudely turned away."

Could you tell us this leader's actual name was?

This next part, though, had a bit of persecution complex common to many PODIAs:

"John Ross, Quannah Parker, and of course, Will Thomas would never have become the great leaders."

Are you kidding? There are probably more mixedblood leaders elected to office than fullbloods. Certainly that was true immediately after the IRA govts were first set up. Nearly all of that first wave of IRA govts were mixedblood led.

And plenty of non-NDNs are respected for their help to NDNs.

I think most of us, and most NDNs in general, would agree with your point about the disenrollment happening in some tribal nations. Where we strongly disagree is that a group passing itself off as a "tribe" is the solution.

Some of what you believe shows Nuage influence whether you realize it or not:

"I have read many of the prophesies and they all say that now is the time. The Mayan Calendar is pointing to 2012. Science is backing that up in that it is predicted that the sun will be going solar maximum at that time. It may be worsened with the position of the earth on the equator of the galaxy. Instead of bickering over whose way is better, or more right, maybe we should be looking at ways to bring all people together"

I can almost hear "Kum Bay Yah" being sung in the background.

Many of those prophecies you read are false, Nuage distortions. The Mayan calendar just ends in 2012. It doesn't predict disaster. In fact it doesn't say anything. It was just a randomly chosen point to end at.

And the sun going "solar maximum?

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Roughly speaking, "solar maximum" means a peak in magnetic-field distortions at or near the sun's surface and the corresponding increase in the intensity of the "solar wind": charged particles coming our way. These distort the earth's magnetic field and are responsible for the auroras. At solar maximum, the earth's magnetic field is more distorted than normal and so the auroras are visible further from the earth's poles. Intense solar maxima can disrupt communications and power systems on earth. This has been happening roughly every eleven years for a very long time.

There are any number of natural cycles, particularly astronomical ones; it's not difficult to pick a cyclical event happening in the same year as some wacky prediction and then claim that "science" backs it up. What science actually says about the solar cycle is far more interesting, and awe-inspiring, than even the fevered imaginings of José Arguelles, the loon who kicked off all the babbling about 2012. There is also disagreement among solar physicists: The US National Center for Atmospheric Research predicts that the next maximum will be particularly intense, though another group of physicists predict that it will be about a third weaker than the last in 2000-2001, which made the aurora visible as far south as Texas.

[Maggie]

As far as I know they are suppose to put "Indian-Style" on the craft if they are not a member of either a Federal or State Recognized Nation or Tribe. What to do go to http://www.indigenous-art.com/laws.html  If you are buying at some of these Powwows you may have problems, If you buy from a dealer or trader it may be easier to take back. One of the problems I have seen is that the Commission in Santa Fe does not have enough investigators to follow up all over the country. frederica

http://www.sherrontruaxartdolls.com/Peacemaker.html

[Maggie]

"
"Ok, now I think you're not being truthful, or you would've said Indians. Whites tend to be the one to say NA."

I know I am swaying off topic, in some areas of the country when you say Indian, everyone thinks you're a DOT, so in areas with large DOT populations the term NA is used more often. That's my observations anyway.

[TRIBALMOONS@yahoo.com]

Well........If I may.........as I am a tad bit more than 1/16 Cherokee and was born on the rez... I have a BIG problem with people selling our heritage on the internet. These people ought to be ashamed of themselves......And I know for a fact that  Creator shakes his head in disgust. Our BLOOD is not for sale!!!!!!! Neither is OUR heritage!!

[WhiteWolf]

"For the most part, I don't see anything that refutes what I earlier said about your group:"

As I stated in my earlier response, it is not my group, I am not a member. I do know members, and I know their ultimate goal is to do good.

"I think the leaders of your group are a mix of the blind leading the blind, and the half blind trying to fleece the completely blind."

Once again, they are not my group, I was only offering a bit more information based on my own research of the group. I believe that you are ascribing intentions without knowing their true intentions by using the term fleece. I have seen no efforts to entice people to pay beyond asking for the donation to cover the cost of printing membership cards. If they were asking hundreds of dollars, maybe then I would say fleece also, but they are asking a nominal fee.

You could claim your heritage, but none of what you are doing is part of it. Hiding behind "I want my heritage" doesn't make taking people's money, or asking for information that could only be used for wrong, any less wrong thing to do. Your actions are wasichu, not Cherokee or NDN. For so called chiefs, you don't have much knowledge. You are doing things even your average NDN child knows are wrong.

The right way to claim your heritage would be to go to actual Cherokee and listen and learn, not try to set up a phony "tribe" with phony "clans."

Once again, I am not Tsalagi, nor do I play one in real life. I am learning as I go about many cultures in an effort to learn, understand, and remove ignorance. If I demanding my "heritage" it would be Huron if my aunts findings are true. But then again, I did a cursory search and found no evidence to back up my aunts assertions, so I have let it be. Though I found the Wendat in Quebec to be much more helpful on my path than the stories I have heard from Cherokees seeking to reconnect. You say that they should go to an actual Cherokee and listen and learn. I have heard from many who have tried and been turned away. One woman had contacted the Eastern band and was told "Yeah, yeah, everyone has a g-g-grandmother who was a Cherokee Princess" and hung up on. She never mentioned anything about Cherokee Princess, yet the assumption was made and she was dismissed. I have heard many other stories like this from people who have found that their heritage had been hidden from them by their ancestors due to Indian Schools, hiding amongst the whites so as not to be relocated from their homes, etc. As they are finding their roots, they wish to learn and are being turned away.



"But some of what I said I was glad you had enough courage to be honest about the wrongness some leaders were doing:"

I never said they were wrong, simply that they are stumbling along, trying to find their way. Their hearts appear good, but they need better organizational skills."

"Could you tell us this leader's actual name was?"
I thought I did, but maybe not, Chief Speaks With Spirits Name is Angie Rose.

"This next part, though, had a bit of persecution complex common to many PODIAs:
"John Ross, Quannah Parker, and of course, Will Thomas would never have become the great leaders."

Are you kidding? There are probably more mixedblood leaders elected to office than fullbloods. Certainly that was true immediately after the IRA govts were first set up. Nearly all of that first wave of IRA govts were mixedblood led.

And plenty of non-NDNs are respected for their help to NDNs."

I don't think it is persecution, I merely was pointing out that throughout Tsalagi history, some whites have been seen as brothers. You were the one who attacked Bear Warrior for being half Puerto Rican.


"I think most of us, and most NDNs in general, would agree with your point about the disenrollment happening in some tribal nations. Where we strongly disagree is that a group passing itself off as a "tribe" is the solution."

I don't believe they have passed themselves off as a Tribe. They call the state groups clans, yes, but they never claimed to be a separate tribe. And yes, they use the title Chief for the leaders of the state groups/clans. Once again, though, they have never said they were a separate Tribe. 

"Some of what you believe shows Nuage influence whether you realize it or not:"
Not all New Age is bad. And yes, I have many influences as I have studied Buddhism, Hindu, and the healing arts of our Asian brothers and sisters. I have also studied some Black medicine ways such as the Healing Drums of the Minianka of Mali. I have studied of the ways of the Aztec Curandero which is a blending of Native, African, and Spanish medicine. I have studied Medicine ways of Native Americans and the healing herbs that are available to me locally. I have studied the ways of the shaman of Europe and other countries. Why have I done this? Because of something I read about bringing the wisdom of the colors together. The only way to do this is to remove the ignorance and walk with no preconceived notions. I have seen the benefits of yoga, Reiki, and even aroma therapy. I don't dismiss them simply because they are New Age. I actually hate that term as it has become prejudicial. I hear many Native Americans spit the word out as if it were bile. Yet, in truth, those who truly follow these beliefs and are not out to take advantage of others have great hearts and wish only to bring healing. If you researched, you would find that many New Age beliefs and healing arts have ancient beginnings. So the whole idea of it being New is a misnomer. It is a rediscovery. I am not a New Ager, only a learner. I walk with an open heart and try not to judge. In this way, I have learned a great deal that may be needed in the years to come.


"I have read many of the prophesies and they all say that now is the time. The Mayan Calendar is pointing to 2012. Science is backing that up in that it is predicted that the sun will be going solar maximum at that time. It may be worsened with the position of the earth on the equator of the galaxy. Instead of bickering over whose way is better, or more right, maybe we should be looking at ways to bring all people together"

I can almost hear "Kum Bay Yah" being sung in the background."

Why do you feel the need to be derogatory? What is wrong with trying to bring the people together?



"Many of those prophecies you read are false, Nuage distortions. The Mayan calendar just ends in 2012. It doesn't predict disaster. In fact it doesn't say anything. It was just a randomly chosen point to end at."

Hmmm, yes, in my prayers once I asked, what is the truth? I was told, "If I gave you the truth, you wouldn't have the journey". Maybe the Hopi Bear Clan Prophecy is false, I have read that Rainbow Eagle's Anishinabe Peace Shield is. I have heard prophesies from the Apache from Apaches. Maybe they are lying to me too. Maybe the whole world is a lie. Maybe you have lied. I don't know. It is hard to know what to believe in this world anymore. I have been told many things from Native Americans. Are they all lies? I have stated that the Mayan Calendar may be just another Millenium and that the clock will tick over and everything will just continue on. However, there has been research done that shows patterns that align with the Mayan Calendar and the "predictions". One of these researchers, a man named Calleman, actually states that things will come to a head in Oct of 2011, not 21 Dec 2012. I would have to read more, as I only read one book on this so as to become more familiar with what people are talking about. Once again, reading to try to remove ignorance. I have stacks of books covering all kinds of subjects, usually reading two or three at a time and following it up with online research. Knowledge removes ignorance and brings us closer as we remove the barriers of understanding.

And the sun going "solar maximum?
I believe someone else all ready responded. From what I gather, it is a cycle that has been going on for a great many years. The cycle is about eleven years in length going from solar minimum where there is little solar activity to solar maximum where there is increased activity. This activity causes a reaction on the earth. It could manifest as more storms, more severe storms, even earthquakes. Of course, events here on earth also effect the sun as we are in a symbionic relationship. Scientists are currently analyzing the anomoly of 2005 that brought us higher solar activity than predicted and Hurricane Katrina. There is a lot more, if you are interested, but I think this is getting a bit off topic.

[weheli]

Osiyo WhiteWolf,
I just visted the UPCN site and noticed many of the "Chiefs" under the "Tribe Council" are no longer there. Have they left?
I also noticed that many of the teachings and heritage of the ancestors have been copied and pasted and not written by "TRIBAL" council/members at all.
So I ask you just how much does this "Tribe" know about the Cherokee language, ceremonies, traditions? Do they know what a True Elder is? How about the Medicine people they have appointed/ or self appointed, do they know the traditional way of Medicine People?

With all do respect I would like to know these things as to thier own personal knowledge and not something from a book.
                                                       Wado  Weheli

[coffee_drinker]

whitewolf, I will address this to you since you seem to be the spokesperson for the group.
I would like to add that I agree with educatedindian about the blind leading the blind when it comes to the group.
I have only one example to share which is not from research on the group but actually my wife did cross paths with one of the "chiefs". One of the "chiefs" did have on the group web page a small bio on himself, in this bio he stated he had been named by a certain elder and was taught by this elder. My wife knew this elder and his family. When pressed he did admit to her he had only met the elder once at that was at a pow wow. The elder jokingly told this"chief" he reminded him of a coyote, and hence this was how the "chief"justified how he received a name. After emails back and forth, the"chief" did pull off the web page the elder's name.
I was taught that not all people have the rights to perform ceremonies, even if you are an elder. These rites are passed from one having the position to another that show the worthiness to carry the rites.
The rights to perform ceremonies are earned not self appointed, just like the title "chief" is not a self appointed position.
In my opinion, any that self appoint themselves shows the lack of knowledge on traditions, regardless of what year we live in, there is still protocol traditionally how things are done. I myself would like to see what the group has done that would follow these traditional guidelines. Doing volunteer work is a great service to those in need but it doesn't have anything to do on a traditional level. Let's face it,  I could do volunteer work 24-7, put up a web page listing recipes, traditional plants used for medicines, but it still doesn't make me traditional nor indian. Just like the old cliche going into a garage doesn't make you a car.

[WhiteWolf]

I will have to go back and check out the site. I wouldn't exactly say that I am the spokesman for the group. I encountered them a year ago and know a few of the people. From the emails going back and forth it seemed like they were trying to do something good. I hadn't heard about Crazy Coyote and how he got his name. Most of the people I have met have good hearts. They do want to do some good.
Maybe the group is falling apart. I note that the messages in the UPCN forum on Yahoo have slowed to a dwindle and are mostly reposts.

Weheli, a question if I may? I am under the understanding that an elder is addressed Osiyo and other siyo? Is this so? If it is, then please, I am just a man, so Siyo is fine.

I am only here to learn and grow. I was told about this forum so that I could check people out when I encountered them. Of course, many are not listed, like the Mohawk "Medicine Man" who was giving classes in Mediumship. I am still on the fence with that one as I took the course in my early days and had an experience where I managed to bring healing to a woman who had lost her child. So while part of me thinks that using the spirits in such a fashion is wrong, I also saw that healing can be brought about if used in a good way. In other words, listening to the spirits to bring healing and not just to perform parlor tricks.

To be truthful, sometimes I think it better to just walk alone and go to the woods whenever I need guidance. Right now, I am spiritually devoid as I have no elder to guide me. All I have is my prayers and the woods. I had a dream many years ago where I was told that I was to bring the people together. I came back to the path I was on before my parents forced me into becoming Catholic. The problem I face is that the path is overgrown and barely discernable. I fear I am becoming disillusioned. I don't think there is any way to bring the people together. There is no truth anymore. I am told that even the prophesies that speak of hope are "nuage lies". I will leave this group now as it is depressing.

[weheli]

WhiteWolf,
Osiyo(chee-O) means hello and Siyo is just a short version of Osiyo. It has nothing to do with Elders. Both are hello.

Walking the path alone and going to the woods to pray is not a bad thing for then you have only you and Creator and the Great Spirit, which I may add is a great teacher. Much can be said about being quite and listening to all that is around you.
                                                               Wado Weheli