Any Thoughts On This?

[Tsisqua]

I just had this forwarded.....Please note the "We openly discuss ceremony" part.

Sent: Fri 5/16/08 4:47 PM
To:  Tsissy@hotmail.com
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Red and Narrow Road
Date: 5/15/2008 1:05:34 PM
Subject: On Red and Narrow Road: Welcome all who have entered the doors!
 
A message to all members of Red and Narrow Road
 
We welcome you!  We have 15 new people join in just a short while, so it is good to get to know one another.
If you are not Native American, or have not grown up with the Native traditions, you may wonder how you fit in here.
Here is the best way I can explain it, and it might be wrong in some ways.  It is how I look at it, and only how I look at it.  I do not speak for the entire group just because I am the administrator.

I am so glad you are here to learn from and support us. Too many times we have been criticized and romanticized into stereotypes that don't fit.  We have people here from England to the Phillipines and all over the United States and Canada.  There are more tribes than I can keep up with, but bear with me as I learn and find appropriate resources.

There are several people here for the same reason of learning from Native Americans and the different ways and many divergent ways we worship.  So do know you are not only welcome, we appreciate your presence very much.
You are welcome at our circle as you listen to the Elders teach, and you may ask questions or just listen by reading the materials or looking at videos and pictures, holding conversations and participating in all discussions.
 
(This is for everyone) We don't believe in arguing here.  If someone says something that is contrary to your beliefs, we just let it go with a prayer that Life will help to educate them, and we embrace and love them through any difficulty or challenge that arises, but don't enable.
 
The phrase "thick skin and tender hearts" comes to mind in describing our love for one another and community.
 
Most importantly, we do talk openly here about ceremony and expect it to stay here within this group.  No one is allowed to cut and paste. Also, only Native Americans are to LEAD the ceremonies and discussions of Native Americans, but all can participate.
 
Blessings to you!  Welcome with open arms.
 
Leigh
 
Visit Red and Narrow Road at: http://redandnarrowroad.ning.com

[frederica]

Well, I don't think these groups should discuss any Spirituality. Many groups will not discuss this.  How do you stop someone from forwarding, copying, or doing a cut and paste?  Only after the fact.

[Tsisqua]

I have no idea...all I know from my own people and my own traditions is we do not...NOT discuss ceremony with non native people...most of our ceremonies cannot even be attended by non natives...and the person who sent me the below email was shocked. I was looking through the member list of that particular group...and was surprised to see some people I know...funny...I thought they'd be against this....apparently not though.

[TRIBALMOONS@yahoo.com]

This is what I found interesting and yet they are discussing "ceremony" These people ought to be ashamed of themselves and their NewAge wanna be NDN BS!

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    To me...it is not of the blood but of the way.

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[Tsisqua]

Well....those are words I hear alot..."its not the blood its the way". And when you call them out on this...they scream "RACIST!"....utter BS.

Funny how we have to prove who we are through Blood Quantum and Tribal enrollment/cards etc....yet these folks can just give themselves ndn names...spout teachings of our people like they even know what they're talking about....and share our ceremonies?

Im going through the pages there one by one once I get time...I'll post anything I find that needs addressing.

When I received the email...the person who sent it to me stated these folks are selling ceremony on their group...so I want to look into that...I just havent had the time as of yet.

Tsissy

[frederica]

I didn't go through the whole thing, there is a couple statements there about not teaching Ceremonies on line. Looks like that was ignored. Most seem to be Lakota and Cherokee. I think they say these groups on Spirituality have to be taught by Ndns, so who's teaching it?

[Tsisqua]

No clue to be honest...from what I've seen it seems to be a free for all

[Defend the Sacred]

Most importantly, we do talk openly here about ceremony and expect it to stay here within this group.  No one is allowed to cut and paste. Also, only Native Americans are to LEAD the ceremonies and discussions of Native Americans, but all can participate.
 
Blessings to you!  Welcome with open arms.
 
Leigh
 
Visit Red and Narrow Road at: http://redandnarrowroad.ning.com

My three cents: Completely flawed premise from the ground up. No one knows if someone is really who they say they are on the 'net. No one knows who is NDN. No one knows who is an actual elder unless they get confirmations and referrals from real-world sources (rather than claims by strangers on the 'net). The posts are shared among strangers. Strangers on the internet are not the same as an in-person community and will never be able to live by the standards that are needed to respect and practice traditional ways. The closing, "Blessings!" is found among Neopagans and Nuagers, and I suspect the people in this online group, even where well-meaning, are probably not too familiar with traditional ways. I personally wouldn't trust their ability to recognize what is traditional, what is Nuage, what is for public consumption and what is to be kept private.

[Tsisqua]

True words Kathryn...there is no way to know...let alone to know who is infact also reading their words....we're not members there...yet we can have full access to their postings etc.

Maybe Im wrong here...but I was raised to believe a person didnt talk of ceremony to non native people...its a big taboo...so Im failing to understand these folks who state they openly speak of ceremony on a site which is clearly a mix of native and non native...my family would seriously whoop my behind if I did such a thing...infact I doubt they'd ever speak to me again.

[zoi lightfoot]

nope Tsissy your not wrong,thats correct in the majority.

[Tsisqua]

I thought so...but I didnt want to speak as though I were speaking for all our Nations....all I can speak of is what I know of my own and what I was raised to believe. But since I figured this was common knowledge...I have to wonder at the mentality of those who choose to openly discuss something that in my own culture is forbidden with non native people. I have nothing against non native people....I just find this all somewhat disrespectful is all....on the part of those claiming to be native and teachers of our ceremonial ways and traditions.

On going through the list of members on that site...and the postings...it does seem their words are highly contradicted....it is claimed that only Native people will teach of our ceremonies....this is not true from what I have seen so far....also...how do the admin there actually know anyone speaking/teaching our ceremonies are actually native at all? Many of the members there have pictures posted...they sure dont look native...and claim elaborate ndn names etc....they may be 'part' native....but I know of no holy man who is 1/16th native who teaches our ceremony to non natives either y'know? Its just not done...be a person part native or full blooded...this is not about blood quantum....we are taught ceremony is a sacred thing....and I dont like how these folks belittle the meaning of our ceremony by teaching and discussing it with folks online.

I've decided to gather the names of those who are conducting this 'teaching' and 'discussion'...their apparent tribal affiliation....and then I shall contact the tribal councils to ask where they have aquired their permission to do such a thing...also to varify if they are indeed from the nation they claim.

I've contacted the folks running this site...infact I did this the day I got the email I posted at the beginning of this thread....but I've yet to hear anything back.

Tsissy

[chiefytiger]

My thought is it is wrong to talk about spirituality,but I have to say no matter what ppls say and do its our mistake for letting our own native ppls fault for allowing the Non Natives into our ceremonys and allowed them to participate in the Sacred Circle ,as well.
And yet we sat back when the so called medcine men & women go abroad and talk about our sacred spiritualty and allowing them to have sweats in the other countries ,Sham on us for allowing that to happen. So now here we are getting our sacred ways be expolited by who ever and now its come to this ,Fighting for our sacred ways not to be expolited .....
CT

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

I came across this site via a person who joined it.  You have to register to get on it. I did so because I wanted to see what it was about, and if it was harmful. And then I searched Nafps.  

I'm not knowledgeable enough to know this that or the other or whatever, but just thought someone may want to take another look at this..  and I'm hesitant to even post about it.

Just seems something like this site is bound to be fueling a lot of frauds, they have videos on how to speak the Cherokee, they are youtube video's, but not sure if they're the ones who 'made' the videos.. also.. videos on different dances.  

As I said, I'm hesitant to post about it, because for all I know it's redundant to you all, but then again, maybe after 2 years, someone should take another look?  I post out of concern for you and your Spirit.. it's difficult to know if I should post to mention what you already have a thread on, but.. it's also difficult to just ignore something that could be more damaging than it was 2 years ago.  

I guess I'd rather take a few lumps for having brought it up if it's not warranted.. than to remain quiet and feel bad wondering..

[Defend the Sacred]

Thanks for posting about this, Critter. It is useful to know if a group is still active, especially if they've grown since anyone has mentioned them.

[bls926]

Any Thoughts on This? . . . I find it amusing that the person who started this thread was exposed as a fraud herself, right here on NAFPS. Cherokee? Maybe in her dreams. She questioned this online group for writing about ceremony and spirituality. She was doing the very same thing on her Native American Unity website. Goes on to say they may be nons teaching about tradition. Again, she's guilty of the same behavior. She made a comment about the members of that group claiming "elaborate ndn names". How's Tsisqua Dawisgala for an Indian name?

Pot-Kettle Award.