Various "shamanism", newagers and entheogens tangents

[karen mica]

Thought some of you might be interested in this;
Excerpts from the article "Witches,comets and planetary cataclysms"

Laura Knight-Jadczyk
The Dot Connector Magazine
Sat, 30 Oct 2010 16:59 CDT

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/217194-Witches-Comets-and-Planetary-Cataclysms

... It is clear that shamanism, as it is known, has declined from its original unified and coherent system. One reason for thinking so is that, while there are many local terms for a male shaman, there is only one for a female shaman. Shamanism, it seems, was formerly a woman's activity. In one Tartar dialect, utygan, the word for a woman-shaman, also means 'bear'.

... The magico-religious value of intoxication for achieving ecstasy is of Iranian origin. ... Concerning the original shamanic experience ... narcotics are only a vulgar substitute for 'pure' trance.

The use of intoxicants is a recent innovation and points to a decadence in shamanic technique. Narcotic intoxication is called on to provide an imitation of a state that the shaman is no longer capable of attaining otherwise. Decadence or vulgarization of a mystical technique - in ancient and modern India, and indeed all through the East, we constantly find this strange mixture of 'difficult ways' and 'easy ways' of realizing mystical ecstasy or some other decisive experience." (Ibid.) Now, let me make a point here.

[snipped for copyright reasons. read full article here: http://www.sott.net/articles/show/217194-Witches-Comets-and-Planetary-Cataclysms - k ]

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Can't really comment on this..

but just wanted to say that whenever I read on how 'christianity' is a take off of the pagan, or that the 'real' christian religion has been buried under the current (bible) religion..  I always think how, if Native Peoples don't preserve and keep their religion safe.. then in a few hundred years, someone will be writing that the 'new age' religions are a take off of the Native.  And how wrong is that?  But.. in 500 years, who would know the difference IF no one works TODAY to keep those Native beliefs safe from this current state of sabotage and annihilation. Well.. obviously a handful.. just like the handful of folks who say Christianity today is a take over of what was the 'real' religion.. 

[karen mica]

It is also true, that the first "shaman" or holy people of a tribe, did in fact experience an "ecstatic" state [while in communication] with a given spirit entity/helper.

It was the actual act of communication or having the ability to bring oneself  "naturally" into renaissance, if you will... with  "another" spiritual essence, that is what created and was the cause, the ONLY cause, of the shamans ecstatic state.

Departure from the communicate or the "ecstatic state" was the signal for the end of the communication... and the shaman was then able to relate with all accuracy and truthfulness what had just transpired, to the other people of the tribe.

This was NEVER, ever done under the influence of any "intoxicating substance" of any kind.
Only later, when the natural ability was lost...or the "frauds" stepped up to take the place of the true shaman, did they have to resort to the use of drugs to produce "artificially induced vision", then came the putting on of grand performances and next use of actual trickery, to convince the people that they had "something" going on....


 

[Lodro]

It is also true, that the first "shaman" or holy people of a tribe, did in fact experience an "ecstatic" state [while in communication] with a given spirit entity/helper.

It was the actual act of communication or having the ability to bring oneself  "naturally" into renaissance, if you will... with  "another" spiritual essence, that is what created and was the cause, the ONLY cause, of the shamans ecstatic state.

Departure from the communicate or the "ecstatic state" was the signal for the end of the communication... and the shaman was then able to relate with all accuracy and truthfulness what had just transpired, to the other people of the tribe.

This was NEVER, ever done under the influence of any "intoxicating substance" of any kind.
Only later, when the natural ability was lost...or the "frauds" stepped up to take the place of the true shaman, did they have to resort to the use of drugs to produce "artificially induced vision", then came the putting on of grand performances and next use of actual trickery, to convince the people that they had "something" going on....

I do not agree with this. For instance, in the Vedas, the use of Soma some kind of psychotropic libation, is well documented. Even till today, another word for Brahman is "vipra", literally: trembler, which points to the ecstatic origin of many of the rituals and sacrifices described in the Vedas. All over Central Asia and well into the Himalayas one may find rituals where herbs or drinks from herbs are used to enter the ecstatic state. In Paryzyk graves (Scythian, 4th millennium BCE) coriander and sometimes hemp was used for this. Indeed I think it is Harrer's fallacy that he imagines that the use of psychotropic substances represents a decline in "shamanistic ability" and that his "core" shamanism somehow restores a "pure" unadulterated shamanism untainted by the use of "drugs".

[Defend the Sacred]

It is also true, that the first "shaman" or holy people of a tribe, did in fact experience an "ecstatic" state [while in communication] with a given spirit entity/helper.

It was the actual act of communication or having the ability to bring oneself  "naturally" into renaissance, if you will... with  "another" spiritual essence, that is what created and was the cause, the ONLY cause, of the shamans ecstatic state.

Departure from the communicate or the "ecstatic state" was the signal for the end of the communication... and the shaman was then able to relate with all accuracy and truthfulness what had just transpired, to the other people of the tribe.

This was NEVER, ever done under the influence of any "intoxicating substance" of any kind.
Only later, when the natural ability was lost...or the "frauds" stepped up to take the place of the true shaman, did they have to resort to the use of drugs to produce "artificially induced vision", then came the putting on of grand performances and next use of actual trickery, to convince the people that they had "something" going on....

I'm really not sure why you're posting this stuff. Are you talking about the Evenk peoples? It's not clear what culture you are talking about, or what time period. What is clear is that diverse cultures can't be lumped together the way Harner did. Harner's disrespect and marketing of his fantasies of Native cultures paved the way for many, maybe most, of the frauds and abusers we discuss here.

I think the point of this thread is to provide resources for the debunking of Harner's "Core Shamanism" and its offshoots, not to theorize about ancient experiences of unnamed or lumped-together cultures. Let's not make the same mistake Harner did.

_{[edited to add link to original Harner thread that these posts were split off from -k]}

[Smart Mule]

It is also true, that the first "shaman" or holy people of a tribe, did in fact experience an "ecstatic" state [while in communication] with a given spirit entity/helper.

It was the actual act of communication or having the ability to bring oneself  "naturally" into renaissance, if you will... with  "another" spiritual essence, that is what created and was the cause, the ONLY cause, of the shamans ecstatic state.

Departure from the communicate or the "ecstatic state" was the signal for the end of the communication... and the shaman was then able to relate with all accuracy and truthfulness what had just transpired, to the other people of the tribe.

This was NEVER, ever done under the influence of any "intoxicating substance" of any kind.
Only later, when the natural ability was lost...or the "frauds" stepped up to take the place of the true shaman, did they have to resort to the use of drugs to produce "artificially induced vision", then came the putting on of grand performances and next use of actual trickery, to convince the people that they had "something" going on....

Really.  Really?  Because there are a slew of Ethnobotanists, Ethnopharmacologists and Paleobotanists who would highly disagree with you. 

[Defend the Sacred]

Indeed I think it is Harrer's fallacy that he imagines that the use of psychotropic substances represents a decline in "shamanistic ability" and that his "core" shamanism somehow restores a "pure" unadulterated shamanism untainted by the use of "drugs".

I think it was pure marketing. Castaneda already had the drug crowd. In the "Just Say No" eighties, I think Harner figured this would sell better, and sell to the niche market that hadn't been taken in by Castaneda. (Or who had been, but were now in recovery.)  Also, psychoactive plants, along with the ceremonies they are used in, are usually particular to a certain region. Hard to claim something is "universal" when it's actually connected to plants that only grow in certain areas of the world.

[karen mica]

Sorry, I was not speaking of any "particular culture" or any later time period.

I thought that "the first Shaman" made it clear that I was referring to the the earliest beginnings of the practice and not what it has become, as it spread to later cultures, or to what we see being practiced today.

And though the subject is a fascinating one and numerous arguments could be made about the modern "fraud" aspects of it, I can only relate what I have learned concerning the subject... FWIW.

"The problem is, you have to be a Shaman or a Seer to be able to SEE - to have perspicacity regarding the matters of other worlds.  Only Seers and Shamans know their own, and only they know who is on the path of light or darkness....."

"Certain drugs may induce states of consciousness that permit us to "see" or experience certain aspects of reality that are veiled in normal consciousness -- as we are now.

But these effects are temporary and short-lived.

The real work before us is to change ourselves in a permanent way, so that such experiences, if they are necessary and part of our development and evolution, occur in step with the evolution of our BEing and DOing.

When and [ if ] they occur in such a case, they are part of our natural development.

And if they don't, then they are not necessary.

If certain drugs initiate these experiences, then it suggests that we are "programmed" to have them. But if we are so programmed, then the best way to attain them is to unleash those "genetic codes" through the work on ourselves, which will happen when we are ready."

What I am trying to show here are the experiences of natural shamanism that is NOT related to being in a "trance" and which manifests almost continuously in daily life.   

A shaman who has to take a drug to access other realities IS NOT A SHAMAN. 

It seems to me that this is the crucial point of differentiation. 

There is a higher path that leads to Reality and a lower path that leads to deeper enslavement - and both of those can entail 'visions'.

To gain such by the use of drugs - natural or otherwise - is to circumvent the natural and higher path that empowers the spirit - and body - to truly walk between two worlds;

to See; to Be.

I don't think this point can be made strongly enough. 

In our current world defined by lies, it follows so logically that drug induced altered states are encouraged as enlightenment when they are infinitely limiting. 

That delineation between 'the wretched' and 'the Whole (Holy)' is so deliberately blurred by those who must keep us in our place - that those who opt for the 'easy' way through  ingestion equals altered state - are caught; always and forever on the path to further, or continued, enslavement."

"There are no shortcuts - for a reason."

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

But how do you (or anyone) know that the "first" did not come about by people
who ingested a particular plant.. also.. how is it known that the use of such plants
is not part of or even catalyst to evolution.

Anyway, I have always thought that the plants used in a ceremony were used for
specific purposes, not to create the connection/trance/whatever it is called.

I thought they (plants) were tools, used in a relationship of sorts.. which
is completely missing in the new age market where yes, they use it
to 'access'.. not for the purpose it is meant.. and not within a relationship of
respect, because they don't know what that is.

[karen mica]

I can`t answer that Critter.

Only those who were there and know the answer would be able to say for sure. 

Do you suppose though, that it might be possible that "some" of the earliest understanding of what the "shaman" did, has survived in isolated areas here and there, and what is remembered is much the same as the preparation for a "vision quest" in that the body and mind are first purified, nothing is taken internally, sometimes for days, and one is left alone with the self, to seek a "vision" or spiritual communion. 

This would have absolutely nothing to do any sort of "external" stimulant of any kind which could have artificially altered the connection. 

I don`t know anything about drugs (of any kind) because I have never used them.

But I think that any mind altering drug, would somehow involve chemically stimulating pathways in the brain that have a lot to do with certain pleasure centers and that in a short time a person could become quite "addicted" to pleasuring themselves through visions or whatever the actual underlying [need] for using the drug actually addresses in the first place.  Which would be something "self" gratifying to a high degree.

Yet it could only be through clear and honest communication that a trust of any kind is formed.
If you are working with an altered mind, then you have already stepped off the path of the true self, the spiritual self, and onto a twisted path that is NOT your own but belongs to some foreign "chemical" you have ingested. 

In which case any "doper" now a days is a shaman.

 

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Actually, no food and/or water for a few days can alter the mind, making it more receptive perhaps.

I don't believe in using drugs though, I'm just saying that you can't blanket state that any "medicine"
type person using a plant is not who they are.. 

[karen mica]

Actually, it very well could be a "blanket statement " since in this case it is clearly the drug that is ACTING the part of the shaman, it is the drug that holds all the power here.

The "human" is nothing more then the factory converting a chemical substance into a party for the mind. The "human" has no power of his "own" to see or do, any thing until the drug is introduced and begins "acting" on the brain. 

When the drug wears off, so does the humans ability to experience a "vision" in this way indicating that there is no shaman here...there is a drug that temporarily plays the part of a true shaman.
Nothing more. 

Take away the drug and the "shaman" falls down, since he has NO ability of his own to do anything, do you not see that? 

The "first" shaman ( if we want to call them that ) were ( sent to be ) the interface between man and the "gods" or between his/her people and the spirit world and these people had a "natural ability" far beyond these silly little visions, since obtained, by ingesting dope.

I will also say, that there is some evidence that these early shaman left descendants...some of whom may indeed carry "latent" abilities to do as their ancestors did. However these people will not yet know who they are, or that they carry the (genetics) that would afford these abilities all without the use of drugs or artificial stimulation's of any kind.

They are out there, but we will not find them, until they have found themselves.


 



 

 

[Defend the Sacred]

The Harner thread was started as a place for links and other resources for debunking the harmful fallacies Harner has spread, so I've split the speculations and personal theories off into this thread.

This forum is not for posting support for Harner's theories. The "global shamanism"/"core shamanism" theory has led to massive abuse, appropriation, and misrepresentation of the diverse spiritual practices of Indigenous cultures, and has been soundly debunked by Indigenous elders and academics alike. We are here to fight that abuse, not support it.

If you want to further discuss personal theories about the practice of neoshamanism, or speculations about prehistory, please take it to PMs. Thanks.

P.S. - I think the article at the beginning of the thread exceeds the Fair Use guidelines for this board, and it would be better if it were radically edited down to the parts you think are relevant, with a link so people can go read the whole thing if they want.

[karen mica]

I`m going to say something a lot of people probably won`t like, or agree with, but here it is anyway.
FWIW. 

I`m not sure that criticizing "new agers" or attempting to point out their short comings would make them see the light, or would make them stop doing what they are doing.

And I`m not sure that interfering with their "lessons" at this time, is even the right thing to do.

Some people see and have seen the "errors" of their thinking but until "they" do nothing much will change.

Many people have followed a wrong path in the past and many more will in the "future".

There isn`t a lot of hard evidence that the early Mayan cultures were at all into these blood "sacrifices" and what is assumed about that is pretty much centered around the stories of some "star god" or gods.

Realistically, people arn`t just going to wake up one morning and say hey, "it hasn`t rained in awhile so lets rips some hearts out and see if that works." 

So if you think about it, this more or less implies that the people thought the "god" either didn`t have the ability to bring rain, or that the "god" was a psychopath... and that some blood and pain would make him happy enough to respond.

And the very fact, that the people "were taught" some amazing things about astronomy, stone workings and all else they learned during this time, does not imply.. to me anyway.., that the "god" was an inanimate rock that fell from the sky, but was an actual walking, teaching entity of some kind!  And a fallen rock need not promise to return one day in the future, since it is already here.

So, something out of the ordinary life experience was occurring with these people.

And with the Sumerians, the Egyptians, etc.

It would seem that blood letting sacrifices, of any kind, to any god, is a sure sign of the impotence and the true "negative" nature of the god, the ultimate slavery of the people to the god... and the failure of the people to understand that.

This is evident even today with the present gods of "religion" such as it is. 

Does it seem that on the other hand, gods of "creation" would teach nurturing, compassion and the ability to obtain from natures bounty without ripping your neighbors heart out and "glutting heavily" in the destruction of other people, or the world?

These "new age" people of the coming "new age" are simply seeking a god of their own, sadly... any god...to attached themselves to, and who might give them power over others.

Over Nature. 

And it seems to me that they are spiritually "about the same" as those later cultures who fell for the power, or the gods ...outside...of themselves, who eat the world alive. 

All this has nothing to do with taking a piece of "indigenous ceremony" and adding some Celtic ritual, while throwing in some Asian theology.

I really think it has to do with being a "new" kind of people who have not learned the lessons of the past and are destined to repeat those mistakes all over again in the coming ( new age ) or long cycle.

Sorry for the long winded essay here, but the point is that, I don`t see that there is anything a person could do to change their minds or set them on a better path.

They have their destiny and they are following their "hearts" to it, for all intents and purposes.