A Long Introduction/ Requesting a traditional perspective

[pesaro]

Hello. I have joined this forum to explore some issues that weigh heavily on my heart.
 
I am white. For the past ten years I have been involved in ceremony.  My primary teacher (a mostly white mixed-blood) can verbalize from whom his permission to do ceremony comes from and that lineage is respectful, but there are some elements that are questionable. A respected full-blood elder (that has now passed on) visited our community a few years back and knew what ceremonies we do and his son continues to visit us, from time to time, but I am not sure that his father sanctioned his son's practice of ceremony before he died.  The people I pray with are respectful and genuine and trying to do things right, but we are mostly white and a very long way from the reservation where our teachings come from, we do not interact with native people on a regular basis or are part of the culture of where our teachings come from.  One of the ceremonies we go to yearly is run by a man that is heavily criticized on this forum.  We have also suffered through some extremely damaging experiences from one native teacher, whom our community was involved with, who was angry and bitter and used his position in an unbalanced negative way.

So this all leaves me feeling doubtful and confused about things.  I do not wish to dishonor my teacher even by asking these questions.  I love him dearly.  But I also never want to dishonor a sacred way or anger the people whom that way belongs to.  It grieves me greatly that I may be doing this in any way, shape or form.  It would also grieve me greatly to turn away from the way I now pray.  I would feel turned out into the stormy sea with no raft, yet I keep coming back to these questions of the integrity of my path.

Do all well respected traditionalists say no white people practicing ceremony, at all? Do you feel if white people are sincere and seek to follow a path in a traditional way, that is still a violation?  Do you feel it is a violation to want to pray with traditional people and learn more from them, as a white person?  As a traditionalist, would you welcome a sincere white person? My family is a mix of atheists and barely practicing Catholics.  I feel no ownership or connection with either of these paths.  I am wondering if it is considered by traditional people better to go without than follow the path of another?  Do you feel it is wrong for Indians to follow a Christian, Buddhist, etc. path?

Please know that I ask these questions with sincerity.  Please do not answer in a mean-spirited way, if you can help it.  Any sincere feed back would be greatly appreciated.

[educatedindian]

It doesn't dishonor a teacher to ask questions. It's normal, expected, and necessary. Only someone with a cultlike mindset that demands total obedience would be offended by your questions. If you feel reluctant to bring all these questions up with your teacher, there's something wrong in this teacher student relation.

It's also not a matter of if someone is white or not. Race is such a dominant idea in American culture that many jump to that false conclusion that this is supposedly where the divide comes down. It's a matter of if they are an outsider to that community. IMO trying to teach a group of outsiders (who you describe as all or mostly white) is a recipe for disaster. Were he to get abusive they have no way of knowing what is customary or not, unless the abuse were obvious and severe. Now if an individual who is an outsider were part of a group learning with others who are part of that community it's a different matter. As soon as you saw the reactions of people within the community signaling something isn't right, you'd know it's time to go.

My suggestion is you rethink your learning from him, and also that you cease hiding who that person is. No genuine teacher would fear having his name known, only someone up to no good.

[naparyaq]

I'm butting in on someone else's thoughts - I'll ask for your forgiveness if I intrude.
I'm not a leader, not a shaman, I'm nothing, no magic here. But I'll offer a few things, because this is just the right time to read this, for me.

I think it's great that you're asking. It shows some kind of true awareness of cultural identification, differences, ownership. Most people don't ask; I think they're afraid of the answer.
It isn't just the trappings and feathers in hair, putting on a costume.

Get two books by Gavin De Becker: "The Gift of Fear" and "Fear Less." These books and the author have nothing to do with nativeness. It's about feelings, intuition, gut, listening to one's self, knowing what you know and being confident in that knowledge.

If you feel something missing, a need to seek something out, you're off-balance, in need of direction - look to yourself. You're a Human Being; we all have an internal compass and barometer. Find it. Use it. Others will be happy to give you direction if you want them to.

I feel no desire to take on others' spirituality and ritual. It holds no special meaning or significance for me. Even when something is appealing to me in flavor, sound, sight, rhythm, I admire it from a distance. I have many diverse friends. They offer up blessings and good thoughts in all different kinds of ways, some more serious than others, and I am pleased to be the beneficiary of good stuff. I feel granted a favor. I feel no compulsion to adopt it as my own. The same goes for my bible-believin', Prayer Warrior Christian friends and family. It's theirs. They feel strongly. I don't. But I take it seriously and catch every good thought coming my way and appreciate it, no matter from where.

I've participated in some ceremonies and rituals along the way, in other cultures. I was purposefully invited for very specific reasons and there was a place for me. I participated as an outsider. I behaved as an outsider; that was my appropriate place. Even though we were all Native. Never did it again, didn't seek it out, didn't want to. I have my own.
See, each Native culture has its own thing. It doesn't belong to all Natives, simply by virtue of being Native. Some things and some ways are going to be more easily and appropriately adopted; perhaps if you marry into a group. Others, not at all.
There have been 20th-century changes from within, greater inclusion, in large part for preservation of culture. I carefully say that this is okay (generally), but it has to come from inside and cannot be unilateral. There has to be some consensus and caution. There must be an understanding that it's a deviation - a New Way - with the risk that something could be irretrievably lost. And it has to be identified properly as such - it must not be out there as an Old Way. That's just wrong.

Last, be careful what you do. Rituals and spirituality is not innocuous and benign. You can really have some hardship if you do the wrong thing. It's correct to be scared of it and cautious.
If you're feeling tentative and uncomfortable, maybe it's already coming back to you. Pay attention.

You might admire someone else's beautiful shoes and want a pair for yourself. You might really covet them. The shoes are not your size, but they're offered to you and you borrow them with great excitement and enthusiasm, because it's just too good to pass on and wear them proudly.
A half a day later, you've been slopping around and had to retie the laces a bunch of times, but it's okay. The next day, you've got to run to catch the bus and you trip and fall. But it's still okay; they are great shoes and people are stopping to look and admire. Oh yeah.
A week later you've got some blisters, kind of a drag and uncomfortable, but still enthusiastic. You stop frequently to fix them. You stuff paper into the toes. You try new laces. You're solution-oriented and want to do whatever it takes because you like these shoes.
A month later, jeez, the wonderful shoes are just not working out. They're still wonderful. People are more admiring than ever. But it's just not happening. No matter what you do, you can't fix it, can't make 'em fit you.
Then they start to look a little strange because you've made modifications to adapt the shoes to fit you better. Then they start to wear out the wrong way and in unexpected places. The color fades. They are not the same shoes anymore. But you are committed and the guy that gave them to you tells you that it's not that they don't fit, it's that you are setting a new fashion trend and how cool are you?
Then it turns out that your feet have changed, too, very very gradually without noticing and you end up with chronic feet problems. That you didn't have before.
Now your old shoes don't fit either. And you have a hard time finding some that do. You've missed the bus a bunch of times and were late for work and there's gonna be consequences. Now you don't care about the shoes, it's a huge disappointment, and on top of that, it's become a real distraction that you've got to do something about. Now you would just be grateful for shoes that do fit and are functional with no drama.
The end.

[earthw7]

You might admire someone else's beautiful shoes and want a pair for yourself. You might really covet them. The shoes are not your size, but they're offered to you and you borrow them with great excitement and enthusiasm, because it's just too good to pass on and wear them proudly.
A half a day later, you've been slopping around and had to retie the laces a bunch of times, but it's okay. The next day, you've got to run to catch the bus and you trip and fall. But it's still okay; they are great shoes and people are stopping to look and admire. Oh yeah.  A week later you've got some blisters, kind of a drag and uncomfortable, but still enthusiastic. You stop frequently to fix them. You stuff paper into the toes. You try new laces. You're solution-oriented and want to do whatever it takes because you like these shoes. A month later, jeez, the wonderful shoes are just not working out. They're still wonderful. People are more admiring than ever. But it's just not happening. No matter what you do, you can't fix it, can't make 'em fit you.
Then they start to look a little strange because you've made modifications to adapt the shoes to fit you better. Then they start to wear out the wrong way and in unexpected places. The color fades. They are not the same shoes anymore. But you are committed and the guy that gave them to you tells you that it's not that they don't fit, it's that you are setting a new fashion trend and how cool are you? Then it turns out that your feet have changed, too, very very gradually without noticing and you end up with chronic feet problems. That you didn't have before.  Now your old shoes don't fit either. And you have a hard time finding some that do. You've missed the bus a bunch of times and were late for work and there's gonna be consequences. Now you don't care about the shoes, it's a huge disappointment, and on top of that, it's become a real distraction that you've got to do something about. Now you would just be grateful for shoes that do fit and are functional with no drama.
The end.
Read more: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3230.0#ixzz1Fdygx7AP

As a native person who live on my reservation i finally see someone someone put this in a way other people can understand. I have a lot of problem with people who claim our traditional ways because they change them to make things easier for themself then one day we don't even recongize our own ceremonies. It hurts me to see this happen our ways take a life time to learn and we have people who come out and teach a couple time year and people run with it. My ceremonies are closed because non Native make to many mistakes and always use short cuts instead of following the correct way and don't understand the reason why things are done nor do they know the stories for each event that happens at a ceremony because there are reason for each step and story that goes with it. We have always welcome guest and made them apart of our lives but that did not give anyone the rights to run with our ceremonies to make them theirs because there is so much that goes into them and there are ceremonies to ask for these ceremonies and this has never been done, they think one man can have the say over our ceremonies and he does not he is just a man it is the people. I know you believe with all your heart this is YOUR WAY but it is not, you are a guest that means we welcome you but that does not give you the rights to steal our culture. because that is how i see it. I know that prayer no  matter how you say it is prayer and everyone can pray you don't need other cultures to do that.

[naparyaq]

Here's the end of the story -

The next time you're on the way to the bus, you notice that there are other people struggling along in great shoes but the wrong size, just like yourself. You also notice that there are others sharing the sidewalk with you, wearing beautiful shoes of many different styles and colors. But they all look terrific, well-fitting, and the people are wearing them comfortably and moving freely and gracefully. They're all different and all special. And they all match the variety of outfits that everyone is wearing, exactly right. You say to yourself, "Man, where are they getting the magic shoes?"
At the bus stop you see the same. You just never noticed because you were so focused looking down at the beautiful gift shoes, that you never looked up. You overhear somebody say quietly, sadly shaking their head, "Oh dear, Jack's been giving the free shoes away again."
You feel embarrassed, you didn't realize you looked so awkward and that people could see you. You thought you looked really really amazing and impressive. You didn't know you looked foolish.

There's a group that rides the same bus as you. They all have shoes just like yours, but different colors and a variety of really beautiful trim, laces, materials. All gorgeous, all perfect, all beautiful.
On the bus, you ask in frustration: "Where do you guys get these magic shoes that are so beautiful and fit you so well?"
One of them leans forward and hands you a pair of plain brown shoes. You're not sure what to do and you don't really want them. You hesitate and take them cautiously. You're thinking you'll just be polite and stick 'em in your pack. The group urges you to try them on. You really don't want to, but you'll go along with it just to be polite. Your stop is coming up and you can get off.
They really insist. Reluctantly, you take off the now-unrecognizable shoes that were once so beautiful and now are just simply ridiculous and stupid-looking. You put on the plain brown shoes and your arm hairs tingle with goose bumps. They are amazing! They might look like nothing, but wow, the fit is amazing! It's like they were made for you. Not only that, they make you feel energized and happy. They make you want to click your heels like Fred Astaire, run through the streets like a 4th-grader and find a tree to climb. Oh, such a relief. Ohmigod, these guys have done you a favor.
You don't even remember the once-beautiful borrowed shoes and abandon them on the floor of the bus. They are so funky and worn, big holes, held together with duct-tape and superglue, that they aren't even gonna fit the guy you got them from anymore. And really, he's not going to want them back.
So you look up with gratitude, a smile on your face, but sadness too, and ask the beautiful shoe people: "Tell me, how come I can't have beautiful shoes like yours? How is it that you guys are lucky enough to have such wonderful shoes?"
They tell you:
"But you do. You have the same magic shoes we do. All of our shoes are exactly the same. Here's the secret of the magic. The beautiful colors and wonderful trim come from the wearer. The magic is that the longer you wear them, the more fabulous and special they become.
But you have to actually walk around in them. The longer you keep them, the more you walk, the better they fit and feel. And each pair of magic shoes will never look the same as the others, but each pair will be uniquely beautiful. You also have to care for them. You can walk through mud, but you can't leave them soiled. You must brush and clean them everyday. When they are frayed, you must repair them. You can't loan them out, as they'll come back to you a different color and a different fit.
See, the reason ours look like this is that we've been wearing them for 10,000 years. You just took yours out of the box. You've been borrowing, trading, discarding shoes for so long, so they've never looked like this."

One of the guys pats you on the back. "Hey man, don't worry. It's not as painful as you think." He holds up his beautiful shoe for you to see. "I threw mine away and borrowed yours for a couple hundred years, but they fit so badly and got so ugly that I ended up barefoot in a snowstorm with no shoes at all. I had nothing else, so I got my own back."
"These are brand new and I'm still breaking them in. I'll run with you for awhile, if you want, and we'll put some miles on our shoes together."
"But please don't steal my shoes when I'm not watching," he says, holding out his hand with a friendly welcoming smile.

[ValSu]

Hello pesaro

Just from my own personal perspective, I think it is best to stay away from things Native American Indian if you are not one of them. These things of Native American Indian, well, each tribe has their way and traditions so many differences so could and have been misunderstood over years even by well meaning sincere non natives; and these are simply things most non-Native American Indians could not even begin to understand even with years of reading and study.

I do think that to try and get involved in something not of one's race/culture/heritage a big mistake. For many reasons I feel this, also some people have shared information about their tribe, culture, race, traditions/customs and then have had people take advantage and use the information for money or simply think what they learn from one person of Indian or tribe that the information is for all Indian tribes and then in sharing what they learn with others which can only spread misinformation.
What earthw7 said too,
Quote,

I know you believe with all your heart this is YOUR WAY but it is not, you are a guest that means we welcome you but that does not give you the rights to steal our culture. because that is how i see it. I know that prayer no  matter how you say it is prayer and everyone can pray you don't need other cultures to do that.

As to what others also shared, If you question something in your heart, or have feelings that leave you wondering if right for you, then likely not right.

Wish you the best in your spiritual peace seeking. Perhaps go back to your family roots, heritage, customs for perhaps in your seeking something else, outside of yourself you missed something in your own history.