Louis Owens

[Keely]

Wait a second Rattle... I read over this post earlier in the day, and took your comment about Louis Owens being Cherokee and Choctaw as a challenge... I have now researched this Owens family. His dad's name was Hoey Owens, this is also the name he used in the WWII draft records, his race is listed as WHITE and he was NOT Indian.... Louis birth record out of California shows his mothers maiden name is BROWN, she too is listed as White.

There is some articals about Louis Dean Owens, which are pretty clear that in 1991 he "found out" that he was Indian, and began to "explore" his "heritage"...

I have seen this man's pcitures, he does not look Indian. I have seen his sibblings pictures, they do not look Indian, and I have seen his dad's picture, he is not Indian.

You know, this chalks right up there with the likes of Mary Summer Rain, or Brooke Medicine Eagle...

I am a professional researcher, and this Louis Owens fed people full of hooeyphooey about his heritage, just so he could sell some books.. Please dont use someone like that to try to prove a point in a debate, because there are some of us who are willing to seek out the truth by doing the research.

[Rattlebone]

Wait a second Rattle... I read over this post earlier in the day, and took your comment about Louis Owens being Cherokee and Choctaw as a challenge... I have now researched this Owens family. His dad's name was Hoey Owens, this is also the name he used in the WWII draft records, his race is listed as WHITE and he was NOT Indian.... Louis birth record out of California shows his mothers maiden name is BROWN, she too is listed as White.

There is some articals about Louis Dean Owens, which are pretty clear that in 1991 he "found out" that he was Indian, and began to "explore" his "heritage"...

I have seen this man's pcitures, he does not look Indian. I have seen his sibblings pictures, they do not look Indian, and I have seen his dad's picture, he is not Indian.

You know, this chalks right up there with the likes of Mary Summer Rain, or Brooke Medicine Eagle...

I am a professional researcher, and this Louis Owens fed people full of hooeyphooey about his heritage, just so he could sell some books.. Please dont use someone like that to try to prove a point in a debate, because there are some of us who are willing to seek out the truth by doing the research.

Well you should put that in research needed, and then and prove it. I am the only person here who I have ever seen mention his name.

From what I seen of the only book I have ever seen of his, it was mostly talking about his family, and comparing the writings of a few other authors. It was nothing dramatic, and sounded typical of stories I have heard from people living in places like the south, regardless if they were Indian or not.

If this man is a fraud, then by all means prove that.

[Keely]

I had never heard of the guy until you mentioned him... And everyone knows how profitable it is to write some smoochie oucchie Indian romantic stereotype book, then claim to be Indian and sell it. It make money, we gotta face that fact... money is a driving force for many of these kind of people... Who reads these books? Not Indians... we dont need to read books if we are raised within our people.. there is nothing a book can teach us... so these fakers are only getting away with this as long as non's are reading their fictional (sometimes mixed with factual research) and the non's are giving rave reviews! What would they really know? A good story is a good story... I can read a good book about building a house, but in no way am I able to go out and start to build one... I might think I could... I think you know what I am saying 

[Rattlebone]

I had never heard of the guy until you mentioned him... And everyone knows how profitable it is to write some smoochie oucchie Indian romantic stereotype book, then claim to be Indian and sell it. It make money, we gotta face that fact... money is a driving force for many of these kind of people... Who reads these books? Not Indians... we dont need to read books if we are raised within our people.. there is nothing a book can teach us... so these fakers are only getting away with this as long as non's are reading their fictional (sometimes mixed with factual research) and the non's are giving rave reviews! What would they really know? A good story is a good story... I can read a good book about building a house, but in no way am I able to go out and start to build one... I might think I could... I think you know what I am saying 

Yea true, but I enjoy reading books the same way I like to read decent threads on a message board and get the perspectives of others.

I love to read the works of Vine Deloria Jr,  just like enjoy interacting with people like Steve Russell or Johnnie over on Indianz.

 Most this book I mentioned here the guy was comparing the works of native authors and adding in some of his family stories and experiences. It reminded me sorta of John Steinbeck in a way, but by no means as good as Steinbeck. This particular book was not smouchie at all.

Again by all means, if this guy is a fraud then prove it. I have never seen him mentioned by anyone but me until today. So you should put your research skills to work.

[Keely]

Prove he is a fraud? Did you not read what I wrote? His claims of one parent being 1/2 Choctaw and another 1/2 Cherokee, I have his dads records, his dad was not hard to research at all, I have grandparent names... and no where in any record is this family Indian. If he is willing to lie about one parent, why not lie about them both? And why is it, he had eight other sibblings, and not one of them make the claims he has.

Here is the way it is, if a person CANT prove they are what they claim, then they are NOT what they claim. How about, instead of people saying "Prove they arent" how about "Prove they are" This guy's dad is in the 1930 US Census, born in Mississippi, two parents who clearly state they are WHITE, and going back every census to 1900 they are WHITE. Remember, this Lewis claimed his dad was 1/2 blood, and if that is so, then why is this family never refered to as Indian in any of the records? Do you seriously think two full bloods could hid and blend in with whites??

Hell, I am not going to argue this with you, the guy, Lewis is a fake and a fraud, during a interview with Lewis he states "He learned he was Indian in 1991"... what? He claims each parent has a full blood parent and some how he never learned this until 1991? You gotta be kidding! Ranks right up there with "grandma told me we were Indian"

I was born into a Indian family... I didnt just "learn" it one day...

[BlackWolf]

http://faculty.wwu.edu/purdy/

LO: I guess I didn’t impress them. (Laughter.) Seriously, though, I don’t know what they really want. Does anybody? Filmmakers or publishers? Trying to figure them out would probably drive you crazy, or make you write what they want instead of what you want. That’s probably one of the few benefits of having a job, to have the luxury of writing what I want to write.

Nightland was written in large part for my Aunt Betty, to whom it is dedicated. I'd written about my father's people, who are Choctaw, and drawn on our family's experiences living in Mississippi and California, but I hadn't written anything about my mother's Cherokee roots. My aunt, who is the last surviving member of my mother's family, called one day to ask if I'd do some research for her on her Cherokee family. That made me realize that I should write a story about Cherokee mixedbloods like my aunt. Perhaps my mother's death about ten years ago had made that kind of writing too difficult until now.

At any rate, the mythology that structures the foundation for Nightland is Cherokee, not pan-Indian or anything like that, but Cherokee. And I knew my aunt would recognize a lot that most readers of the novel will miss. I never believe in explaining my own writing, though I happily explain other people's, but I will say that the Thunder Twins, or Sons of Thunder, are very important mythic figures in Nightland.

JP: Those are the things that weave their ways through the narrative.

LO: Sort of. Anyway, I did some research, for her, so she told me what her grandfather’s name was and her grandmother’s, which she thought since she had no written record. Actually, only half the family’s on the Dawes roles, and they’re all on the 1910 Oklahoma Indian census. It occurred to me that I really should have written a book about my mother’s family, too. The Cherokee side. And that’s how a body came to be falling from the sky.

I thought this was interesting.  In an interview he does with John Purdy, he speaks about his book Nightland that was written for his Aunt Betty, and then he says, “Actually, only half the family’s on the Dawes roles, and they’re all on the 1910 Oklahoma Indian census.”  Even if one lineal ancestor of his is on the Dawes Roll then he is eligible for Cherokee Nation citizenship.  So either he’s enrolled, he’s eligible to enroll but never bothered to, is misrepresenting the facts, or are one of the ones that has family that shows up as rejected.  

[MikePutfus]

This reminds me of back in the late 50's when it became cool to be "Indian" for a while.  A young man came on the reservation with paperwork showing his Grand Mother had been born there. He showed it to my Grand Father, and said that makes me Indian right? My Grand Father said sure if your willing to give up everything you own, and live here. Learn our langauge, and be one of the people. He looked around for a while, and left. Never seen him again. Called them shake and bakes back then. They come out of the woodwork when they think there is a profit to be made out of it or there is something cool about it.

[educatedindian]

His dad's name was Hoey Owens, this is also the name he used in the WWII draft records, his race is listed as WHITE and he was NOT Indian.... Louis birth record out of California shows his mothers maiden name is BROWN, she too is listed as White.

There is some articals about Louis Dean Owens, which are pretty clear that in 1991 he "found out" that he was Indian, and began to "explore" his "heritage"...

I have seen this man's pcitures, he does not look Indian. I have seen his sibblings pictures, they do not look Indian, and I have seen his dad's picture, he is not Indian.

You know, this chalks right up there with the likes of Mary Summer Rain, or Brooke Medicine Eagle...

I am a professional researcher, and this Louis Owens fed people full of hooeyphooey about his heritage, just so he could sell some books...

I've written on vets quite as bit. Draft records are notoriously unreliable. Native vets routinely listed as white, black, even "Mongolian." Same with birth records. It's quite common for the person making the records to just make their own guesses.

Did you read the Native wiki article? That was the first one I found, and that interview says the interviewer first realized he was Indians in that year, when he'd known him for some years in the grad program.

[Keely]

My conclusion to this family being non Indian comes from many records, I went back to the 1880 census with this family and all records are consistant with them being white, never has any other race been suggested.

Birth records are different, one parent must read over the record and sign it stating the information given is factual.

Death records... if a autopsy is done, it is the coroner puts down a race, but the death record information comes from the family.

WWI and WWII records are taken from the person who is signing up for the draft, or enlisting.... I am sure today there are thousands of records misidentifying people as Indian, but one can only guess at what the doctor wrote on the exam papers 

You cant take just one record for proof, it takes many records with a consistancy of what is listed. I like to use my own family as examples... My grandmother is listed as 1/4 Cherokee in the 1910 census, but when you read the Dawes testimony given by her mother, her mother states she is full blood Absentee Shawnee, her husband was Shawnee and Cherokee. Some how, someone decided this was her husband was half and half, and some how my grandmother on the census was listed as 1/4 Cherokee... If you read my grandfathers Dawes statement, it becomes quite clear that he states his dad was a full blood Shawnee, his mother was Shawnee, Cherokee, a sister to Jack Girty. If you read the Girty statements, you will find consistant statements about their blood even though some never mention Shawnee blood, only Cherokee blood, but they are full bloods... My dad's enrollment shows him as 4/4

[BlackWolf]

I agree with EducatedIndian and Keely in the fact that military records are unreliable. There also are people without a drop of Indian blood how may have “Indian” or “Native American” listed on some official document that identifies them as such.  In the Southeast, do to the racism of the time, “Indian” may have been used to conceal someone’s African American ancestry.  This is especially true where the information on these records is determined by the person themselves or the person’s family: For example, when the information on an official government document about “John Smith” is determined by either “John Smith” or someone in his family.  The US census are official records also, yet as we all know, anyone can “self identity” however they want.  

I agree with Keely.  All the evidence I’ve seen so far suggest this man is non Cherokee and probably “non Indian”.  My guess is that he is basing his alleged Cherokee heritage on family legends, and stories that may have been passed down to him by a parent or grandparent.  Which makes him no different than people all over America who were told by someone in their family that they were “part Cherokee”.  The majority of people don’t incorporate this vague family story as part of their identity, and will just mention it if it comes up in casual conversation about their heritage.  The problem is when people take it a bit further and reinvent their identity later in life (that in most cases was never part of their identity growing up).  Then they attempt to make themselves an authority on the Cherokee people and Cherokee Culture by doing things such as writing books on Cherokee or “Indian People”, giving lectures, getting grants intended for Indian people, etc, etc.  Also, some people then take this family legend and exaggerate the facts, and misrepresent the facts to try to make them appear as if they are an “Authentic Indian”.   It is mentioned in an interview that he is Oklahoma Cherokee. It would be interesting if one could find out if any of his ancestors were either on the  “White Intruder” list in Indian Territory or maybe one of the “Dawees Rejectees”?  If one of his ancestors  on the Rejectee list, you can usually find out the reason for this.  

[BlackWolf]

The alleged Choctaw side of his family seems just as elusive as his alleged “Cherokee” side.  

I'd written about my father's people, who are Choctaw, and drawn on our family's experiences living in Mississippi and California, but I hadn't written anything about my mother's Cherokee roots.

There’s no evidence that he was enrolled with any of the 3 Federally Recognized Choctaw Tribes being the Choctaw Nation, Oklahoma, the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians, nor the Jena Band of Choctaw Indians, Louisiana.  According to the Choctaw Nation based in Oklahoma, this is what is needed to qualify for enrollment. (listed below)
At best he may be someone who has a Choctaw ancestor on one of the other Choctaw Rolls.  But if he's claiming to be Choctaw, and is writing all these books, and speaking as a "Choctaw", then there should be at least some evidence to substantiate his claims.  Otherwise, he has no right to do this.
Also the Choctaws by blood can be searched pretty easy on the Dawes Rolls.  
 http://www.okhistory.org/research/dawes/index.php

http://s3.amazonaws.com/choctaw-msldigital/assets/287/choctawresearch_original.pdf

 To apply for a CDIB (Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood) and tribal membership with the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma, you must be a direct descendant of someone listed as Choctaw – by blood or Mississippi Choctaw – by blood on the Final Rolls of Citizens and Freedmen of the Five Civilized Tribes in Indian Territory (commonly called the Dawes Commission Roll). That ancestor must have been living in Indian Territory during the 1898 to 1906 enrollment period

[educatedindian]

Sharpest Sight is his best known book, the only one I've read. He didn't ever present himself or his characters as any kind of authority on either Cherokee or Choctaw ways. Far from it, his characters were all mixedbloods out of touch with their communities trying to find their way back. His characters are Mississipi Choctaw, just like Owens said about himself.

Notice I'm speaking in the past tense. He's passed on. I'm wondering whether this thread should be moved into Archives like we do with others we discuss who are now gone. Really, the only effect this discussion would have now is whether his books should be taught in schools.

As far as I know, there was never any question of his authenticity while he was alive. He won awards from or worked with one set of Indian scholars after another, Southwest Indian Polytech, Woodcraft Circle, etc. And he taught at UC Davis, the same university that has respected Powhattan scholar Jack Forbes, who has never been shy about speaking up on any issue. With frauds in academia like Castaneda and Churchill, the alarm was sounded on them from the start. I have a hard time believing Owens was anything but what he always said he was, a Mississippi Choctaw who for whatever reason was unenrolled.

[BlackWolf]

If thats the case with his books,  then I agree EducatedIndian.  And I do agree that if this man is who he says he is, then that would be his right to claim his heritage whether or not he's enrolled. 

[Keely]

Sharpest Sight is his best known book, the only one I've read. He didn't ever present himself or his characters as any kind of authority on either Cherokee or Choctaw ways. Far from it, his characters were all mixedbloods out of touch with their communities trying to find their way back. His characters are Mississipi Choctaw, just like Owens said about himself.

Notice I'm speaking in the past tense. He's passed on. I'm wondering whether this thread should be moved into Archives like we do with others we discuss who are now gone. Really, the only effect this discussion would have now is whether his books should be taught in schools.

As far as I know, there was never any question of his authenticity while he was alive. He won awards from or worked with one set of Indian scholars after another, Southwest Indian Polytech, Woodcraft Circle, etc. And he taught at UC Davis, the same university that has respected Powhattan scholar Jack Forbes, who has never been shy about speaking up on any issue. With frauds in academia like Castaneda and Churchill, the alarm was sounded on them from the start. I have a hard time believing Owens was anything but what he always said he was, a Mississippi Choctaw who for whatever reason was unenrolled.

Since he was teaching and claiming to be Choctaw and Cherokee, and if he were still living, he would have eventually caught the attention of others and called out on his claims.

There are many writers who write great books about Indians, and people, there are people who know Indian traditions very well, but it does not make them Indian, and many of those who are honest about who and what they are gain my respect much faster than someone who claims they are but cant prove it. There are just too many records for the time period, I have been into a lot of those records, and no where is this family of Owens Choctaw or Cherokee, more so, neither tribe even makes a claim these people.

Barbara Woods was a good friend of mine, she waw the first wife of Earl Woods, as many people do not know, Earl made claim to being Shawnee,not just any Shawnee tribe, but to my Shawnee tribe, Earl wanted him and hsi son to have tribal ID cards, and thought that I would be able to get the cards for them... he had no proof of what he claimed, but was upset with me because I would not bow down and help him and Tiger their ID cards... as famous as they became, they are still no better than anyone else and they have to prove it just like anyone else. I had to prove it even though my family is well known, I still had to provide birth records, death records, and my genealogy to the tribe to be enrolled... It is no different than anyone else.

[Rattlebone]

My conclusion to this family being non Indian comes from many records, I went back to the 1880 census with this family and all records are consistant with them being white, never has any other race been suggested.

Birth records are different, one parent must read over the record and sign it stating the information given is factual.

Death records... if a autopsy is done, it is the coroner puts down a race, but the death record information comes from the family.

WWI and WWII records are taken from the person who is signing up for the draft, or enlisting.... I am sure today there are thousands of records misidentifying people as Indian, but one can only guess at what the doctor wrote on the exam papers 

You cant take just one record for proof, it takes many records with a consistancy of what is listed. I like to use my own family as examples... My grandmother is listed as 1/4 Cherokee in the 1910 census, but when you read the Dawes testimony given by her mother, her mother states she is full blood Absentee Shawnee, her husband was Shawnee and Cherokee. Some how, someone decided this was her husband was half and half, and some how my grandmother on the census was listed as 1/4 Cherokee... If you read my grandfathers Dawes statement, it becomes quite clear that he states his dad was a full blood Shawnee, his mother was Shawnee, Cherokee, a sister to Jack Girty. If you read the Girty statements, you will find consistant statements about their blood even though some never mention Shawnee blood, only Cherokee blood, but they are full bloods... My dad's enrollment shows him as 4/4

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