Scarlet Kinney's Allegedly Native Teacher

[TrishaRoseJacobs]

What I find interesting is that whenever Native people say someone or something is full of bs (and, sorry - but you'd think we'd know what we're talking about on somethings) - we're being "judgemental."

Why is that do you suppose?

Actually Ms. Kinney the idea that being "judgemental" is reserved for a few or even one, is quite a Christian ideal. Native socities aren't really the "anything goes" freewheeling hippy communes you seem to think they are, and they never were. Sure, everyone had personal freedom - within the bounds of the community norms. The people we're talking about, yourself included, aren't acting within community norms for those peoples they claim taught them. And yeah - that's going to cause you catch flak. If you don't like it, it's quite simple - don't claim to have anything to do with Native people. If your teacher was Ms. Okhy - just because you got Native ancestry does not make you a Native healer. And dancing with people for two years (whose names you later can't even remember) also doesn't make you a Native healer. That's not judgemental - that's common sense.

[Scarlet Kinney]

In response to Walking Soft's comment:
"So did Scarlet read some books, listen to a few lectures and than begin her cultic teachings?"

I will say this only once, and will not discuss it further. Whether you choose to believe it or not, it happened.

No, I did not "read some books, listen to a few lectures and then begin my 'cultic' teachings."

Here's what actually happened to me:

In 1988 I moved into a new home/studio/art gallery in the little village I live in. A serviceman who was installing a propane furnace left a pipe uncapped. When another serviceman came to light the stove pilot, and turned on the gas, it poured into the space from the uncapped pipe, and the whole place filled with it. Neither of us could smell it because all the piping was new and absorbed the odorant used in the propane to alert people to leaks. He then lit a match.

The concussive force of the explosion that resulted was so violent it blew skylights 40 feet out into the back yard. I was thrown about the room, and horribly burned in the fire that followed the explosion. I had an out-of-body experience during this event. I knew I was dying, and somehow felt very serene about it. I moved towards a light at the end of a cavernous, tunnel-like space.

I was unable to complete my journey, however, because my way was blocked by several large bear spirits, grizzlies. One of them, who later identified himself to me as Standing Bear, asked me to return to "the body", as there was a work his clan, the Bear Spirit Clan, wanted me to do for them. I agreed, and he transmitted to me an enormous amount of what I could only perceive at the time as densely compressed images. He then asked me to look down at the body. As I did so, I felt an enormous compassion for its suffering, and that compassion somehow propelled me back into it.

I got myself out of the fire. The grizzly spirits stayed with me, and are still with me. They facilitiated my physical healing, and began teaching me. I could see them, hear them, smell them.

I was raised Catholic, and had no prior knowledge of Native American ways or of shamanism. I went to a therapist who looked at the paintings I was making of the constant visions the bear spirits were inducing, and was told that they looked shamanic. My response was, "What's that?"

Then I did read a few books. I did research on the subject, and found many examples of shamanic initiation in the literature that mirrored what had happened to me.

I didn't know what to do, because there wasn't anybody in my culture who knew anything about what I was going through.

At around that time, I began to hear a drumbeat that contained an invitation to travel to the Southwest. After two months, I did so, and within a few days, met my teacher.

She guided me through what had up until then been a terrifying experience of spontaneous ecstatic visions and dreams. She taught me how to handle the energies that had come to me, and how to communicate with the five bear spirits who were constantly with me. I will always honor her for being willing to help me. Yes, she was Native American, and she helped me when nobody in my own culture could. For this reason, I have always had a great respect for Native American people, and have hoped to develop some relationships within that culture.

Over the years, the compressed images transmitted to me by Standing Bear have gradually unfolded, and I have gradually integrated their meanings. The work I'm doing now is a way of honoring the committment I made to Standing Bear, when he asked me to share my experience "with all who have the heart to hear."  

It seems very few people on this site have the heart to hear, as everything I say is either misinterpreted or twisted to mean something other than what I'm communicating, and thrown back at me in attempts at character assassination.

To those who can hear what I'm saying, I would very much like to reach some understanding with you. I am not your enemy. Nor am I creating a cult.

I am a white woman who experienced a genuine shamanic, not Native American, intiation. I don't know, and may never know, why this happened to me. But I did experience it, and I will honor both my experience and the woman who helped me get through it, whatever others may think of her or of me, and in spite of any difficulties we may have had.  

I am working with the teachings I received from Standing Bear and from my physical world teacher, combined with my graduate studies in mythology and depth psychology, to create a psychology of wholeness that honors the feminine, and to contribute to raising earth consciousness in my own culture.

If you can't or won't understand me or my work, there's nothing I can do about that. But I'm going to continue doing it.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

I will say this only once, and will not discuss it further.

I imagine many of us will be relieved to hear that. I was tempted to delete that post but then decided it should stay as a monument to your folly. I can't imagine any legitimate spiritual teacher, Indian or not, talking about such a profoundly life-changing experience on a message board. Egotism is the only word for it.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

What stands out for me is this: I think Forest's sincerity speaks for itself in the copy of her letter Al published. It was clear that what she had to say was honestly presented; that  her attitude was conciliatory and geared towards achieving understanding and harmony; and that  her approach was respectful.

That letter was intented for public consumption. Forest evidently wished to appear conciliatory, respectful, etc to her intended audience which was not Indian people, but non-Indians desperate for "Indian spirituality". She clearly doesn't respect Indians enought to stop pretending to be one. Take a look at the responses to it on indianz.com: everyone there saw through it immediately.

All of this stands in stark contrast to the comments of those on this site who think they have the authority to sit in judgment on her or anybody else.

Oh, enough talk about judgment. You're not the first newager who's thrown a towering hissy-fit on learning what we think of you and I'm sure you won't be the last.

[180IQ]

"towering hissy-fit"

Barnaby.... that's a scream!

Ms. Kinney's tale reminds me of the one RLS has published except Kinney is more concise and readable, as well as more plausible. Disregarding the arrogance she displays elsewhere in her posts, she is also more honest than RLS. For instance, he never mentions in his account the fact that he was under the influence of hallucinogenic mushrooms at the time of his "vision".

Maybe we ought to create a sort of informal grading system for "fraudism", where different scores are applied on various traits such as arrogance, dishonesty, etc.

[Virginia Carper]

I agree with the rating system.

As an ordinary white person, I have been reading this exchange.  My family is from Maine, although we never encountered this person.  Our neighbors, who are Indians, were people who we met at the post office, bought gas from Clifton's, had gardens as we did....  However, none of us would say that they taught us 'Indian ways' or such stuff.  It is absurd to say the least.

The Indians in the part of Maine that my family lives are Abenaki.  So it seems very strange to me that this woman would not have any connection with them.  It isn't like they are hiding some place.

Her shattering experience that she writes about is not that uncommon.  A lot of people have shattering experiences.  In Wash. D.C., where I live now, we had 9/11 when the plane crashed into the Pentagon.  Several people in my neighborhood worked at the Pentagon when the planes hit.  None of them had shaman guides come to them nor  did they change their religion from Christianity. They changed jobs or moved out or went back to work. So, I think that shattering experiences are whatever you make of them.

[plz]

author=Scarlet Kinney

the compressed images transmitted to me by Standing Bear have gradually unfolded, and I have gradually integrated their meanings. The work I'm doing now is a way of honoring the committment I made to Standing Bear, when he asked me to share my experience "with all who have the heart to hear."

Perhaps this is the crux of the problem.  Your interpretation has been skewed.  In life changing, challanging or threatening situations (ie. health concerns) it is always advisable to get a second or third opinion.  

Maybe your first 'opinion' was not from the best source,  There are inumarable people who have experienced near-death.  I bet if it were googled right, there would be forums loaded with good input.  Even 'experts'.

"Sharing" your story sounds a bit different to me than "make up stuff to interpret it and then teach a bunch of 'bs'.  But that is totally my opinion.

pattyz

[educatedindian]

Yeah, Ms. Kinney, yeah right.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Nuagers in Europe who told me about their alleged "profound experience" that convinced them they were NDNs in a past life or whatever.

I had dreams when I was a kid about Robin Hood, but you don't see me running around in green tights, do you?

Sorry, but vivid experiences don't count for much. People have vivid experiences when the dentist gives them novocaine, while high on various illegal stuff, etc.

And does anyone remember a Star Trek episode (new one, not the original) where an injured alien thought Capt Pickard was God? He came back and just had to tell everyone that the real name for God was "THE PICKARD!"

The point is, like others told you, it's best to get other opinions about alleged "visions". Anyone Native having these opinions wouldn't sound off on a public board. They'd talk to their elders and think deeply about it for a long time. Then they'd do their best to carry out some kind of good with that vision.

But they would not tell the whole world "Look at me! I'm so spirchul cuz I had a near death experience! Come pay me big bucks! I can heal you! Even though I don't know much...."

The biggest tipoff is that you choose the name Standing Bear for your alleged spirit that you allegedly met. But none of what he told you sounds a thing like the famous Standing Bear. It's like saying you met Napoleon and he told you a secret recipe for French Fries.

[raven]

ROF!!!! Sorry that is so funny!!!!!!!!!!  

[AndreasWinsnes]

Much of it seems strangely fundamentalist, somehow, like the thinking of right-wing Christians

You don't talk like this to Native Americans. That comment is like saying to an Oorthodox Jew: much of what you say seems like the thinking of right-wing Nazis. Christians are occupiers of Native's land. Their genocide is just as unforgivable as the Holocaust. ?

Let me clarify that I don't consider Native Americans as "victims". My Norse forefathers was also conquered by Christians. They are just some mean fighters because of technology, cowardly weapons and a taste for genocide. In the 1950's the Norwegian Church tried to exterminate the Romani people in Norway by lobotomy, sterilization, stealing their children, shooting their horses and destroying their language. This went on until the late 1970's. It was not until 1998 that the government asked for forgiveness. And they did something similiar to the Sami people. ? ?

Fundamentalism? Everyone has the right to believe in syncretism, but their belief system becomes militant if they don't allow others to keep their faith pure if they want to. Traditionalists have the right to protest if New Agers or others incorporate sacred symbols, objects and practices from other religions in their syncretic worldview. That is syncretic parasitism.

There is one problem with telling the whole world about your most sacred and intimate experiences: it looks suspiciously like spiritual pornography. I am not saying that your story is that, but I don't even want to read it, because I am a stranger and it is none of my business to know your innermost feelings. I would remove it, if I was you, but I am not.

This web page would not have existed if non-Natives did not steal or impose as something they are not. The conflict will be over once New Agers leave Native religions alone. It is they who are the intruders, and they should therefore back off. It is as simple as that. ?  

 

 ?  ?  ?  ?

[walking_soft]

Scarlet, I haven't posted in a while just reading and listening. It seem to me you are playing the victim role and martyr. Yes you have had a terribel experience however your costant repeating of this tells me you have much healing in yourself that needs to take place. Often time broken souls search for something to fill it, drugs, alcohol,sex,religion ect. The problem arises when it is done to the extreme without regard for self or damage to others. To even speak to people on this path is useless because of the denial.

Have you ever given it any thought that during this time of vulnerability you may have been taken advantage of, after all you have called your teacher a fraud and we have more than presented facts to that effect. You reached out and tried to fill that painful area with false teachings and began to help others with these false teachings, after all it does distract our own pain if only we can grasp on to "something."Even more so if we can focus on others.

Just my perception of all I read.                Wado.