new here

[Moma_porcupine]

Jason

I am nervous about posting on this site as everyone seems really angry all the time with anyone not Native American. It is a bit scarey trying to be friendly

I find most of the people posting here to be issue oriented , and people usually try to be fair and balanced in in their comments . But I gota tell you , anger is fact of life if you spend any time with real Native people ( the ones who have just lived through 500 + years of genocide ) I would suggest watching the movie "Crash" as it does a good job of showing how racism and past trauma and pain can echo down in a community affecting everyone , even the most thoughtful and well meaning . To have any expectation Native people would not feel angry , is very unrealistic , selfserving and ignorant of the real supression and suffering that has gone down.

Jason

Am I right in saying that you do not allow others to enjoy your spirituality too? Do you have to be Native American to understand it or could you learn a bit about it.

One problem for people from different backgrounds wanting to learn "Native Spirituality" , is there is many different Native cultures and a lot of why traditions work for Native people is because these traditions are deeply connected with the land and the thousands of generations of ancestors who have lived on that land . Traditions are traditional because they connect with the many generations who practiced these traditions before us , and the many geneations who will practice these traditions into the future .If it isn't your tradition , it isn't a tradition at all , and as much as people might long for that deep sense of being connected with something much bigger than themselves , if it isn't your tradition, practicing someone elses ancient traditions just isn't going to do it , in a real way .

For example , the Makah on the West Coast traditionally hunted whales for food and ceremonial purposes , and so there are many traditions which include songs , dances , and ceremonies . What would you think if a bunch of Lakota decided , they would adopt the Makah traditions around whale hunting , and while living in Lakota communities , they began using Makah songs , dances and ceremonies ? Do you think that would make anyone happy ? 

I think we can all learn from the core values and morals of all religions , but if people were studying Confucism , it would be silly to try an dress like you were Chinese , take a Chinese name , eat Chinese food and go to Chinese camps and speak English like it is your second language . That would be about escapism and fantasy . Not learning to live in a responsible and harmonious way with reality . There is a big difference .

Just my own understanding of this . I hope it helps .

[Jason]

But I gota tell you , anger is fact of life if you spend any time with real Native people ( the ones who have just lived through 500 + years of genocide )

Anger often does more harm to those who get angry. The Jews, Witches and lots of other groups have had far more than 500 years of genocide by they seem to have moved on.

[Mo]

"moving on" is a whole lot easier once the genocide stops. its hard to forgive and forget with a foot on your throat.

[frederica]

There is more than one form of genocide also. Corruption of the culture by "fakes", pan-Indianism, someone claiming to be a Cherokee Medicine Man, and giving Sun Dances, and using Lakota words. The general public doesn't know the difference, takes it as real, as it is all "Indian" to them. Education is still the key. frederica

[Jason]

I can see how that could be irritating. Someone pretending to be and Indian when they are not and deceiving the public. But what harm do they do to the public exactly? Lots of people pretend to be what they are not, often because they admire the people they try to emulate.

What exactly is the harm? I know that real Indians would not charge for healing but lots of other healers do make a charge. it doesn't alter the healing power. I am not trying to be provocative, I really want to know.

[educatedindian]

Jason, we're doing our best to be patient with you, but some of your questions...really, I have to wonder.

Are you seriously claiming Jews today are not affected by the memory of the Holocaust? I doubt you'd convince anyone in Israel of that.

Do you normally go around lecturing Jews about how you feel they should feel about the Holocaust, or lecture Blacks about how you feel they should feel about slavery?

Yes, there is obvious harm by frauds, much like the harm quacks pretending to be doctors do. Many if the herbs and drugs used in ceremonies are just that, drugs that can kill if you don't know what you're doing. Same with ceremonies like sweatlodges. That's not even counting the people who die from falsely thinking they're healed. One of the frauds calling himself Roy Littlesun (based in England now actually) was claiming he had a cure for AIDS by simpling eating vegetarian and avoiding soft drinks.

We realize you're new here, but could you do a search first to see if the topic has already been covered before you ask your questions?

If you decide to come over to visit Native homelands, many reservations do have tourism information on their websites. Some have tourist bureaus.

If you come, you'll find you'll enjoy yourself more and learn a lot more if you listen more than you give out advice no one asked for. If you do the first, you may make friends among Native people. If you do the second, don't be surprised if people start avoiding you.

Be careful because there are also lots of frauds doing "spiritual tourism". ("Come on over! For only $1999 you too can be part of an Authentic Red Indian Sooper Secret Ritual!") There's quite a few threads in here on that subject too.

[weheli]

 Hi Jason,

Sorry I didn't know who you are before. I am glad you took my invite to come on over. I do hope you are learning here.
                                                                   Weheli

[Jason]

Jason, we're doing our best to be patient with you, but some of your questions...really, I have to wonder.

Everyone else has been patient, I am only asking things I don't understand. Being dyslexic means that I would have to spend hours just to read a couple of articles and I have looked for some of these things but have probably spelled them wrong because I can't find them.

If you come, you'll find you'll enjoy yourself more and learn a lot more if you listen more than you give out advice no one asked for. If you do the first, you may make friends among Native people. If you do the second, don't be surprised if people start avoiding you.

I notice that anytime someone asks a question they seem to be met by anger and that they become frightened to ask. I do not want people to be angry with me and so I wont ask any more questions.

If there is anyone on here who I could ask privately perhaps they would email me as there is a lot I want to understand.

Do you normally go around lecturing Jews about how you feel they should feel about the Holocaust, or lecture Blacks about how you feel they should feel about slavery?

I did not lecture anyone. I just said the others had moved on. As a Jew I and my people embrace the goods things in life and accept that not everyone will treat us fairly. If you are short, bald, stammer, fat, dyslexic, gay or even just plain stupid, life is often unfair, it affects us all. I am not lecturing you, just saying how I feel about my life and I accept the way you feel too, if it makes you happy.

Hi Jason,

Sorry I didn't know who you are before. I am glad you took my invite to come on over. I do hope you are learning here.
                                                                   Weheli

Hi Weheli, yes I have learned a lot of things here and a great deal about the people on here too

[educatedindian]

"Everyone else has been patient"

Really, come on. *Everyone* has been patient.

"Being dyslexic means that I would have to spend hours just to read a couple of articles and I have looked for some of these things but have probably spelled them wrong because I can't find them."

And that's something we're all keeping in mind.

"I notice that anytime someone asks a question they seem to be met by anger and that they become frightened to ask."

Come on. Where has that ever happened in here? Don't make things up.
And yet before, you claimed you couldn't make your way around the site.
Don't confuse my slight annoyance with "anger" or imagine yourself and anyone else curious to be facing persecution.

"I did not lecture anyone. I just said" etc, followed by more lecturing"
"I am not lecturing you, just saying" etc, followed by more lecturing"

A fine art, lecturing by saying you're not lecturing, then followed by more lecturing.
I don't presume to tell you how to feel about the Holocaust, you don't presume to tell us how to feel about Native issues. Deal?
And that's not "anger", that's a discussion between us with me asking for you to be more polite.

[Ingeborg]

Everyone else has been patient, I am only asking things I don't understand. [...]

I notice that anytime someone asks a question they seem to be met by anger and that they become frightened to ask. I do not want people to be angry with me and so I wont ask any more questions.

I'd have to agree to educatedindian there: everyone has been patient with you.
As my partner suffers from a form of dyslexia, too, let me tell you as much as that: using dyslexia as an excuse for asking out of the way questions and coming up with wrong accusations won't work, neither here nor in real life. We explained before that it isn't just 'anytime someone asks a question' people are flying off the handle here, and you're the only one claiming (pretending?) they're too frightened to ask.

If you really do want to learn more, please do some reading, and thinking. After that, you'll probably realize that it's adding insult to injury to go and tell people that all of us do have their behinds kicked once in a while, and the best bet for anyone whose turn it is to have their behinds kicked was to get over it and not bother the world with complaints about any bruises the boot might have caused. Do some reading on prejudice, stereotypes, and white privilege, I'm confident that should answer quite a few of your questions. At least the ones about what harm plastic shamans do and why we're working at this issue.

[Jason]

As I said, i wont trouble you with any more questions so there is no point in replying to this thread unless you are being angry becuase you like fighting (?). I am told a few people here just argue with everyone because they have nothing else to do.

I have had 2 private emails and those people have told me they don't have an anger problem. But as they said, they are naturally happy people with careers etc and they see the world in a constructive way. One of them explained your position to me and the sort of lives you lead so I will not trouble any of you any more.

It is good to know that that some people are not racist and dont fight everyone who is not Indian.

[weheli]

Jason,
First I am going to ask you outright if you are Jervis aka firewalker?
A lot of what you are talking about sounds like him, but than I could be wrong.

What percisley do you want to know?? Ask your questions (1, (2 ect.
I notice you keep misinterpeting percise answers to your questions as "people" being angry at you for asking! And than you play the victim and blame it on the posters in here. If some one disagrees with you, do you interpret that as being angry at you? I DO NOT[b believe much of what you say. You say you know little about new age in the UK, but go on to tell all about them, reread the threads.

SO WHAT DO YOU WANT TO ASK?
                                                                    Weheli

[Freija]

As I said, i wont trouble you with any more questions so there is no point in replying to this thread unless you are being angry becuase you like fighting (?). I am told a few people here just argue with everyone because they have nothing else to do.

I have had 2 private emails and those people have told me they don't have an anger problem. But as they said, they are naturally happy people with careers etc and they see the world in a constructive way. One of them explained your position to me and the sort of lives you lead so I will not trouble any of you any more.

It is good to know that that some people are not racist and dont fight everyone who is not Indian.

Hi Jason, I am Swedish - not a single drop of Indian blood here  I have been on NAFPS for several years and have had the honour of meeting some of the people posting. I have not even once experienced any kind of "racism against non-Indians" on this board, rather the opposite! Nor have I "been frightened of asking questions", like you put it. I have always been met with respect and thanks to all the support and ínformation I´ve received I have been able to inform others about the exploitation.

You seem to blame Indians for coming down hard on you since you´re non-Indian, but there are also non-Indians questioning your motives. So could it rather have something to do with the way you ask the questions? Or the way you receive the replies? Communication goes two ways, you know...