Author Topic: German Guy  (Read 11631 times)

Offline earthw7

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German Guy
« on: February 12, 2008, 09:55:10 pm »
http://www.geocities.com/lakota_iyapi/index.html
                                                 Hello my friends. I'm glad to meet you.
My name is Martin Krueger. Don't worry, I am not related to Freddy Krueger.:-) I was born and raised in germany, but I have been to the States many times. I am currently living in Berlin, where I am offering Lakota courses for beginners. I've been studying the Lakota dialect for 26 years now. I have written and published three books about this subject. I hope you will enjoy my homepage. Maybe we'll see eachother again in one of my classes???
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Offline earthw7

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Re: German Guy
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2008, 10:00:45 pm »
I found this site about these german teach the language
In Spirit

Laurel

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Re: German Guy
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2008, 11:03:10 pm »
I don't know anything about the source of the below quote; I only know I don't like it.... 

"Being a Lakota is knowing what a War Bonnet is for, what a choker is for, what a breastplate is for, what an eagle feather is for and not wearing them to prove you are Lakota. (...)
If you try hard MAYBE you can be Lakota some day."

Richard Keith Iyotte (Sicangu Lakota)



Offline Ingeborg

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Re: German Guy
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2008, 11:17:32 pm »
I have met Martin Krueger in German language forums and he has also been very helpful in research. From what I know about him, he is serious, he does teach Lakota language - but he does not do ceremonies and he doesn't like Wanabis and twinks. I'll be glad to give you his e-mail address, so you can contact him directly.

Martin's website may be mentioned in dubious ways as he had considerable difficulties with a German person calling herself an 'Indian supporter', and she has done quite a bit to discredit Martin, and quite incidentially, also Richard Iyotte. The lady, however, is having severe mental problems which is why she starts mud-slinging campaigns when she happens to develop bad feelings against a person.

Offline earthw7

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Re: German Guy
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2008, 02:51:25 pm »
There are many nice people in this world, i did not put him in the fraud list I was asking about him.

I don't know about this lady you are talking about i was doing a search on my reservation and came up with this site.

I just said he is teaching my language.

Why teach germans our langauge? It is good to know many languages but are these people planning to come to the reservations to help us?


If he wanted to do some good he should be here on the reservations help the native children relearn their language.

There has to be a point where people stop thinking they are so nice that they have a right to another cultures and language.

I get upset because so many of these nice people come and take our teaching of our people not to help my people but themselves.

We are having trouble with saving our language because Pine Ridge speak different then Standing Rock which is different then Cheyenne River which is different then our relatives in Canada. Then we have the Dakota, Nakota and the DaNakota languages.

Then we have a pperson who learns one dialect and teaches that then we have people come from germany to tell us we speak our language wrong because some white guy taught them.

I am sorry but this is a touchy subject for me. Why teach germans?


In Spirit

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: German Guy
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2008, 06:32:03 pm »
I can't, of course, say anything much regarding Martin's motivation - it would be best to ask him and hear what he has got to say on whom he learned Lakota from, whom he teaches, and what he does for the Lakota people. I will invite him over to this forum.

Offline earthw7

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Re: German Guy
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2008, 08:41:36 pm »
Ok that sound like a good ideal
In Spirit

Offline Cetan

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Re: German Guy
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2008, 04:11:12 am »
This reminds me of a story my aunt told me, she was at a meeting in Twin Buttes where one of the few grandmas left who is fluent in Mandan was present. A man from Gremany, who wanted to be Mandan - they actually have a group called the German Buffalo Mandan Society, and had taught himself Mandan got up and psoke for a good 5 or 10 minutes in Mandan. The grandma said "I dont understand what he said but Im sure it was nice".

Offline Martin Krueger

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Re: German Guy
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2008, 12:46:21 am »
Hello earthw7 and everyone else who is concerned,

 my name is Martin Krueger. I am the person you dedicated a place in this forum.  A good friend of mine told me about this thread and that I am expected to respond.

First of all I have to say that I don’t like internet forums at all. I hate them because MOST of these forums are places where people get hurt or lose their reputation just because they do not agree with other people. Also they are places of trouble and fighting. I have been hurt in those forums many times and I hurt other people trying to defend myself.

Therefore I like to tell it right in advance that I will only write to this forum once and I will try to be as polite as possible not to hurt anybody’s feelings. In the same way I hope that any response to my posting will be written with the same kind of respect.

You are right when you criticize the quote from Lakota-musician Richard Iyotte which I put on the first page of my website, sort of out of context, this way it might encourage wannabes and eso-freaks to go on with their wrong-doings. I already thought about removing it from the website and your comment which I can understand from your position encouraged me to actually do it.

So much on your comment about that quote; now some answers to your questions concerning my work as a teacher of the Lakota language, which you refer to as YOUR language.

Well, you are the first Lakota person I’ve met who referred to the Lakota language as “MY language??? all the other people I heard talking about the language preferred the term “OUR language???.  Forgive me, but isn’t the phrase “my language??? a concept taken from the “white man’s world??? that implies we OWN everything?  The question is, can a language, being an instrument of communication between people really be owned by an individual or even a group of people?

Can a man possess the earth or the sky?  So how can we possess a language? I don’t consider German as MY language even if I grew up with it. It is just a means of communication with my fellow German people and I really do not have any problems with Non-Germans teaching German.
Just check the student catalogs of many universities in the US where Non - Germans teach German to American people.

In Germany the children are taught English, French, Spanish and Russian, mostly by Non-native speakers and no one has any objections.

And how many American professors teach other foreign languages and nobody cares.  Just SOME Lakota people not ALL have problems when NON-Lakota people teach their language. Why is this? Are Lakota-people something special?

I do not want to argue on this subject, but could you give me a good reason why I shouldn’t teach very basic Lakota to people who want to visit the reservations?

Let me tell you a little about my motivation and the work I am doing here in Germany, so you might get a little idea who “this German guy??? Martin Krueger really is.

I have always been interested in the way how people communicate and studying languages is one of my major interests since early childhood. Besides English, Spanish, Russian and Romanian I also studied the Lakota language (which I still do). I am far from being an expert and I always mention it in my classes as well as in my publications. I am offering classes for beginners. Let me say, I am teaching “Tourist Lakota???. I teach people how to say “Hello???, “How are you???? “My name is this or that???, “What’s your name???, to make it short: the basics and not more.
And most important, based on my personal experiences I teach people how to behave appropriately when they get to the reservations. I tell them about Lakota etiquette, for example not to take pictures of or during ceremonies, not to touch any sacred items and MOST OF ALL, NEVER NEVER NEVER to correct Lakota when they talk about their own culture, even if they (my students) are fairly sure to have accurate knowledge. I am sorry to hear that some of my students or people who used my Lakota Tourist Guide still are misbehaving on the rez. I always tell people about the different dialects, (Dakota, Lakota and Nakota) I tell them about regional dialects that people from Pine Ridge may speak different from people from Rosebud or CRST.  I ALWAYS tell them that there is not ONE Lakota language but many different dialects and slang. Nevertheless, there are always people who won’t listen, who do not pay much attention in class or just want to hear what they want to hear.
I had students in my class, disrespecting me, by telling me I was teaching wrong Lakota because some guy from Pine Ridge told them another word for “policeman??? or “the month of April???.

You as a Lakota will certainly agree with me, that there are several words for policeman and April depending on the region you live in. And there are many varieties between the different reservations. We also do have many different dialects in Germany, but some hundred years ago the German authorities decided that there will be only ONE German language “the Hochdeutsch??? what they will use as an official language. This language is taught in school and actually German people grow up with two languages, the “Hochdeutsch??? and their regional dialect. This makes them able to communicate with other Germans speaking a different dialect. I have, for example, a hard time to understand a person from Bavaria when he/she speaks his/her dialect. Sometimes I don’t understand this person at all. Anyway, we can switch to the Hochdeutsch and are able to communicate without problems.

As far as I know the Lakota people never created such an artificial language as the Hochdeutsch. They still use their different dialects taught by their grandfathers many years ago. Some Germans who come to your reservations with my book may not recognize the fact that Lakota people are individuals and that they don’t need to create such a language as the “Hochdeutsch???. The common language to all Native Americans is English nowadays.

 It makes me feel sad to learn that people are misunderstanding the message of my books and my classes. This is not what I intended. My original intention was to encourage Lakota people to use their own language instead of English when dealing with foreigners.

I am familiar with Lakota history especially with what happened to your people in the boarding schools.  When I visited the US and found out that the young Lakota children and teenagers spoke less Lakota than I did, I wanted to something about the language loss. I am aware about the problems of language loss and I have experienced how other countries dealt with that problem. History has shown that many languages with a small amount of speakers already disappeared from the linguistic pool of the world.  Others, including the Lakota language are endangered. Studying the history of languages I realized that all languages which were just spoken in their immediate area were sooner or later undergoing the process of distinction. The boarding schools were a major but not the only reason for the fatal loss of indigenous languages. Another reason is definitely that many Native people do not want to share their language with non-native people.  But, a language which does not become INTERNATIONAL, which is only spoken in remote areas of the world, is going to die. Scientist estimate that only a few number of the world’s languages will survive the next 20 years.  English became an international language which is spoken by millions and millions of people. Russian, Chinese, French, Spanish, German and a few other world languages are going to survive the language loss. What about Native American languages? There are supposed to have been more than 600 languages on the US territory when Columbus arrived in America. Less than 150 of these languages are still spoken.  The languages with a high amount of speakers are Navaho, Ojibwa, and Cree. Others like Pawnee, Mandan, Hidatsa are already dead or only have less than 5 fluent speakers.  The amount of fluent Lakota speakers is estimated somewhere between 3000 – 8000 speakers. Therefore it is categorized as an endangered language. When I talked to Lakota kids on the rez about the problems of language loss they didn’t really care. Our culture is going to die anyway, so why should I learn my language. It’s dead; we gotta live in this white man’s world, is what many of them said. The only words and phrases which seemed to have survived were “winkte??? meant as an insult or a joke towards each other and “hau kola??? or “pilamaya???.

The idea instructing Lakota children already crossed my mind but you know the Lakota way of approach. “Don’t go there unless you are invited???. Nobody seriously invited me to teach Lakota children. Some people mentioned that idea to me (including you) but there was no serious talk about that subject.

Besides, as a German I would feel kind of funny to teach Lakota children THEIR own language; and what about the children? Will they accept a white person from overseas as a teacher of their own culture? What about jealousy and mobbing?  You know that Non-Natives have a hard time on the rez when they live there permanently.

Excuse me, but I am kind of too sensitive to deal with that jealousy.  Also I am a handicapped person who is not able to travel long distances anymore. 

Yes, I am teaching basic Lakota here in Germany, but nobody needs to worry about it. I don’t get rich giving my classes. In fact, sometimes I am living on welfare because my income is far below average. I know what it means when you cannot pay your phone or electricity bill and when you have to eat junk food because there is no money for fresh vegetables and fruits. I also suffer from diabetes; can hardly move without a cane and already got problems with my hearing and memory.

I don’t want to complain about my situation since it’s partly my fault as I am overweight.  I do not want any compassion. I just want to let you know that I am not a threat to you or your people.  I am not a self-proclaimed Shaman, and I do not conduct any ceremonies for money. All I do is teaching Germans how to order a Coke or ask for directions when they come to Lakota country. And I really do not have many students. So please, don’t pick on me and don’t compare me with those who do harm to your people by giving themselves Indian names and calling themselves medicine people.
My name is Martin Krueger and this name sounds more than German, ennit?  :)

I’d like to add that this will be the first and the last message on this forum as I am not an exhibitionist.  I feel kind of embarrassed to expose myself or my feelings in front of thousands of other people, I don’t even know. This is the reason I don’t like internet forums at all. Sorry, but I don’t see much difference between a discussion in such a forum and running naked through the Broadway in New York.

If someone feels a need for follow up questions I would appreciate if you sent me a PM.

Respectfully

Martin Krueger
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 01:01:07 am by Martin Krueger »

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: German Guy
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2008, 03:39:35 pm »
What I wonder is why people who don't live in a Lakota community would want to learn a bit of Lakota. Why not Tuareg, Gilyak, or Kombai?

I would guess almost all Lakota people speak English much more fluently than any German will ever learn to speak Lakota.  As English is closely related to German, and other European languages, any European simply wanting to communicate with Lakota people will be able to learn much more of the common language English, much more quickly. So efficient communication would not seem to be the motivation for a German wanting to learn Lakota.   

 If it was an anthropologist wanting to make sure they understood something properly, or someone going to teach little kids in a Lakota community, there might be a good reason for wanting to learn some words, but otherwise it seems like teaching this language would mostly attract  hobbyists and wannabes who want to learn because they were inspired by the imaginary Indians written about by Karl May. Why do you think any real Indians welcome this type of silly people further intruding into their culture and privacy?

I think it is these questions of what people intend to do with the language that raises concerns. If people what to learn, because they hope if they do so they will be in a better position to infiltrate and take over Lakota culture of course that is offensive.

Language is an important part of indigenous traditions, but actually having a life long relationship with the culture and community at least as important, probably more.

Offline Freija

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Re: German Guy
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2008, 05:36:33 pm »
I know of a woman over here who dreamt about marrying an Indian, so she studied Cree for a couple of years, went over to Canada, married an alcoholic who abused her badly, got back home again and started learning Dinéh instead. Oh Gawd!

I am not saying anything about Mr. German guy,  who I am sure have good intentions. But I have to agree with Moma Porcupine.  I´ve spent quite a lot of time in Native communities, especially with the Lakotas while making the film. I think I´ve learned just about five words - and I am pretty sure those words didn´t mean what I was told they meant, since the guys on the rez got themselves some good laughs! Oh well, that´s what we do with foreigners here, too! Ha ha!

We sure didn´t have any problems with not knowing Lakota. And it didn´t stop us from getting to talk to the traditionalists. Everyone spoke English. And when they moved over to speaking Lakota, usually among the elders and spiritual leaders, it was a private conversation that was not my business anyway. So, I don´t quite understand the purpose of learning Lakota?


Offline Martin Krueger

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Re: German Guy
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2008, 06:38:28 pm »
Of course there are people here in Germany who are studying Tuareg, Gilyak or Kombai. There are many "exotic" languages taught at our universities. I am aware about the problem of hobbyist Indians, and wannabes but each indivudual has it's own story and motivation.

In fact, there is a number of hobbyist, wannabes and "pipe cariers" visiting my classes. Many of them never heard about this website. The majority don't even know any Native person. All they know they read in books or learned from movies. They have a very romantic view about your people because they are living in a cruel world. Every day we hear about wars, nuclear waste, enivironmental destruction and economical problems in our country. There is a high level of unemployment. People are trying to escape into a dream world using Native American philosophy as a common remedy for everything.

Many of these people went thru a hard childhood, sexually exploited by a parent, or abused physically or emotionally. These people actually need a psychatrist not a new kind of philosophy.

But tell me one thing, how many mentally or emotionally disturbed people actually will admit to themselves or to others that they are having mental problems? Which alcoholic or drug addict will admit that he is addicted?

My Lakota classes are not only language classes but a place where wannabes and plastic shamans can learn to be themselves and that it is not necessary to be someon else. Sometimes I have a hard time to convince these people that what they are doing is wrong. Anyway, I can't use harsh words and this has to be done patiently and with love and respect.

I am trying to help both sites, Indians and Non-Indians as well.

I also forgot to mention something in my first posting. Studying the Lakota language made me to reflect "my own" language and to appreciate my own culture. When I came to America for the first time about 30 years ago, I had a hard time to accept that I was German. I felt so guilty because of what Germany had done to the Jews and other people in World War II. Can  you imagine how it feels when you are a little child of 8 or 10 years  and every day in school the American influenced teacher shows you documentaries about the holocaust, telling you that your parents and grandparents did that.
When I grew up back in the early 60 ties it was no fun to be a child. Everytime and everywhere you heard the same words: YOU ARE GUILTY!!!

I also used to live in a dream world and hated myself for being German. Your people taught me to be proud of myself. Your people made me feel to respect myself as a human being. But they did it with LOVE, RESPECT and UNDERSTANDING and not harsh criticism. I am thankful for what your people did to me and all I am asking for is: Please be a little bit patient with those German wannabes. Tell them your opinion, but always keep in mind that they have phsychological problems partly caused by the same system which was supressing your people for a long time.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 10:39:14 pm by Martin Krueger »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: German Guy
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2008, 12:14:22 am »
In fact, there is a number of hobbyist, wannabes and "pipe cariers" visiting my classes.

Well, whatever style of communication you use with them, I would hope that you can use their attraction to your classes as an opportunity to educate them about the real views and opinions of Lakota people, so they stop fantasizing about finding some sort of spiritual salvation in a culture that is not theirs. And the best way to do that, would be to show them the words of actual Lakota people, such as the statement on Protection of Ceremonies: http://www.123hjemmeside.dk/indianerforedrag/5945831

A warning sign I've found among those who want to learn bits of a language of a culture they have spiritual fantasies about is: Do they want to learn to speak with normal people of that culture? Do they want to learn to listen, and to better understand the actual views and opinions of the people of that culture? Or are they more drawn to only learning "spiritual" terms they can then take out of context, or even redefine and apply these terms to newage actions that have nothing to do with the culture they "admire"?

If they are mentally ill, I think helping them find resources for their mental illness will help them more than allowing them to continue their delusions. I have known people like this, as well. For myself, I found that many of them do not want to get better, and do not want to change. In those cases I have found that sharing genuine information with them usually winds up with that information being abused.

Quote
Tell them your opinion, but always keep in mind that they have phsychological problems partly caused by the same system which was supressing your people for a long time.

The US government, and the non-Indigenous people of many ethnicities, are still harming Indigenous peoples, the world over. I don't see how this is analagous to the life of a German or German-American child. I also grew up in the sixties and seventies. My father served in World War Two. I grew up with some German neighbors in my community, as well as Jews. Though it's not my family culture, I have German Jews among my ancestors. I'm not trying to be harsh here, but the fact that you have felt personal shame for what the people of your parents' and grandparents' generation did to the Jews, and other minorities, is really not the same thing as growing up as an oppressed minority.

There is a Newage idea that all feelings of "shame" are bad, and that no one deserves to feel them. I disagree with this. Some actions are shameful.

It is healthy to feel ashamed of what one's people have done, especially if that shame then motivates you to feel "wise remorse" and to make amends for what your people did. It does not mean you are personally, as an individual, responsible for the exact actions perpetrated by your people. However, it does mean that, as their descendant, you have a responsibility for making sure that genocide does not happen again. If that means you sometimes feel upset by the history (the "grandfatherhistorydilemma"), so be it. That's better, and more spiritual, than pretending that those who remind us of history are somehow oppressing us.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 12:24:19 am by Kathryn NicDh? na »

Offline Ganieda

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Re: German Guy
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2008, 06:18:28 am »
As a side note to the comments on language... here is what Robert Mirabal has to say.... kinda humurous.... but sadly true

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=25040816
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