I am an admirer not exploiter of native spirituality

[Defend the Sacred]

With or without disclaimers, I'm not comfortable with people giving out psychiatric or psychological advice here. I realize we all did some of that earlier, re- basic psychology and getting a checkup with a doctor and therapist, but this is not the place to dispense medical advice.

Manicman, you said you were going to drop the attempt to learn NDN ways, and now you're asking people to message you and advise you about it. I am really uncomfortable with where this seems to be going.

[Defend the Sacred]

I would also like to say that there are reasons I feel drawn to Native spirituality that go beyond the kundalini aspect I already mentioned. I would really like to private message with someone who knows these things, if possible.

Being drawn to these things doesn't give you a right to them. You have some white people in this thread who are engaging with you (and I am one of them) but what is more important is what the NDN people here have said - it's not yours to take.

[Manicman]

Ok got it.

[Defend the Sacred]

Obviously, you didn't get it at all: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4262.msg36907#msg36907

[Manicman]

I've read the Raven Kaldera thread as well as the core shamanism thread. I've also read and re-read God is Red by Vine Delorias Jr. I think I have some understanding of the point of view that you are coming at this with.
As for the word itself... The thing in and of itself is beyond words. There are followers of Eastern religions who use the word God to describe the creative principle, even though it has little to do with the monotheistic conception of God.
As for the idea that this simply couldn't happen to white people because it belongs to native people... sorry this thing belongs to the other side. If you believe in the reality of these spiritual forces, then you are forced to accept that it is possible (not likely but possible) for a white person to become a shaman. Yes, the people I have mentioned on this board that I believe to be authentic shamans are not serving tribes in a hut on the edge of the village, and they do sometimes accept money for their work. But the world is simply a vastly different place than it used to be.
As for the idea that I am defending them just because these exploiters "made me feel good": Eliot Cowan refused to continue working with me because I went against the advice he gave me about how to deal with the spiritual opening I was having. And yet here I am backing him, because I can have an honest disagreement with someone without feeling the need to entirely discredit them. The work he did give me showed obvious integrity.
Raven Kaldera gave me highly accurate readings that often turned up difficult and challenging information that I sometimes was reluctant to hear. It wasn't just "You are a great guy who will get rich and marry a hot chick." I mean I do believe all that to be true but the reading pointed out things I was doing wrong in life that I was embarrassed to admit, and yet it fit and made sense in the context of my experiences. And the information he puts out on transgender issues was helpful to me dealing with my gender bending tendencies.
As for Wintersong Tashlin, does it sound like I am defending him? I said I believe him to be an authentic shaman, but I think he is a bad one and I would recommend against anyone going to work with him.
Which brings me to my last point: What do I do if going to some of these people this board labels as fraudulent, they show signs of actual shamanic power? What if they can do things that people who haven't been touched by the other side can't do?

Obviously I can't prove any of this over the internet, but you can in fact go see these people yourselves. I don't say all this to insult your point of view, and I do have sympathy for the history of cultural genocide. But having gone through a Kundalini awakening where I interacted with spiritual forces that don't fit my ethnic background, I was forced to conclude that such a thing is at least possible. Raven Kaldera does some justice to the ambiguous territory that is implicit in this issue in this article:
http://www.northernshamanism.org/general/shamanism/shaman-and-scholar.html
He talks about the debate of "This is traditional and therefore sacred and to change it would be blasphemous" versus "This should evolve to fit a modern context." And he mentions that there is a third party that differs wildly from the former two which says "Well I talked to the other side, and the other side said (xyz)."

[Laurel]

I've read the Raven Kaldera thread as well as the core shamanism thread. I've also read and re-read God is Red by Vine Delorias Jr. I think I have some understanding of the point of view that you are coming at this with.

You just don't care.

As for the word itself... The thing in and of itself is beyond words. There are followers of Eastern religions who use the word God to describe the creative principle, even though it has little to do with the monotheistic conception of God.

Then it would be no trouble to use a different word, when you know this one offends so many people, wouldn't it? Nope: You wanted to be healed by a "shaman," one who looks badass, not a "possibly unlicensed medical/pyschology practitioner." "Shaman" is awesome-sounding!!

As for the idea that this simply couldn't happen to white people because it belongs to native people... sorry this thing belongs to the other side.

Listen up, Natives! A white person is going to tell you allll about your religions, almost certainly using ideas he got from other white people. Won't that be refreshing and enlightening for you?

If you believe in the reality of these spiritual forces, then you are forced to accept that it is possible (not likely but possible) for a white person to become a shaman.

(Annnnnnd so what if they charge, I steal from India, too, so I can be a shaman, your genocide is sad but my spiritual experiences are much more important, these shamans are real, I know it because of my wisdom and my empty wallet, go pay them for yourself, blah blah blah.)

All very enlightening and new, I'm sure.

[milehighsalute]

am i missing something here? does he claim to be native? does he claim to do native ceremonies? does he claim to have learned his hocus pocus bullshit from a native? i looked at his site and he seems like just another new-age whack job to me......but as long as he doesnt say it has anything to do with native ways i personally dont care

[earthw7]

Oh No another privileged white man tells us who we are,
This is what i see with these fraud s that they take make people believe that
they are something that should be worshipped and defended, something is wrong
with that picture.
 "be authentic shamans are not serving tribes in a hut on the edge of the village",
what does that mean? Who lives in a hut at the end of the village?
You dont know nothing about my people.

[Manicman]

Ok instead of shaman I will say spirit worker/magician/healer. Enjoy the extra syllables.
And I am not "telling Native people about their religions", because this isn't a religion in the first place. It is a calling or a particular relationship with the other side. It may be associated with a tribal religion, but it doesn't have to be. Wintersong Tashlin told me that his tradition is a recently invented one, and works with the dead and the land, rather than primarily with the living. So how can you accuse him of appropriating anything?
Raven Kaldera actually does have some of the blood of the tradition he claims to be doing. Is it still cultural appropriation because he is modern rather than tribal? He also doesn't charge money for the divination he does. If you do give him money he has to donate it because apparently the spiritual forces he works for say so. He can accept gift cards, but if you give him nothing at all, he literally still has to serve you. How does that fit into the stereotypes you were quick to jump to?
And you still haven't responded to the other points I made. You assumed I am backing these guys because they "made me feel good." One of them actively refused to work with me further, one of them I thought was a tool and wanted to punch in the face, and one of them gave me challenging albeit rewarding information that fit what I was dealing with at the time. I'm not buddy buddy with any of them. I put this information out here because they showed signs of well, being able to do stuff.

[earthw7]

I never said anything about religion
I was talking about your description of my people.

I like the being able to do stuff lol

Since Native people dont believe in magic'''''''''

Fraud is anyone who get paid for their services, they usually have website,
They sell themselves, they make claims that are just not true.

spiritual force are everywhere

[Defend the Sacred]

Noah/"manicman" you are being combative and insulting. Once again, you say you've read the threads, but apparently you did not understand them. Or, as Laurel pointed out so clearly, You. Just. Don't. Care.

People have tried to educate you, and you still don't seem to understand the most basic principles of why this site exists and what we do here. I am moving your tangent to your intro thread.

Note: Tangent started here: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4363

You have been warned before. Apologize or you are banned. This is your last warning.

[Defend the Sacred]

Actually, I'm sick of your shit. I think you're just trolling now. If you'd read even the most basic information here, you wouldn't be asking these basic questions and saying these insulting things. You can email your apologies if you want to return. For now, anyway, out of the pool.

[Sturmboe]

Overall in the word are people with spiritual power, some are able to heal - or other people believe they can heal.... If someone find in a foreign nation a form of spirituality or healing as he knowes it on his own, it doesn´t mean, it is the same or he can take it over "just for the reason he knowes the same in his life".  It can never be the same, but consentaneity or dis -  consentaneity could be a basic to understand other people or to find a way to look in other ways. It is something about understanding, respect, etc. but no "transforming", no masquerade. There is nothing you can fetch like from a clay pit and form it as you want.

I got the feeling manicman is missiing his way to walk on his own, he  is looking for help and for me it seems he leaves a mark to be vulnerabel for fraudulant practice.