Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay

[Moma_porcupine]

Marlon 

Just because a few Elders have occaisionally allowed a picture to be taken in a ceremony or of a ceremonial object, or an Elder has spoken about ceremonies and SOMEONE ELSE has made this information available to the public in an insensitive way ,  dosn't mean this is generally seen as an OK thing to do . There is sometimes exceptional circumstances, unusual personal beliefs , misunderstandings , or even exploitations that happen , but thinking it is OK to causualy talk about Sacred things or take pictures of ceremonies , is not the norm .

It seems to me, the many Native people who don't feel comfortable seeing pictures of ceremonies / ceremonial items or Sacred information  on the internet , have nothing to personally gain from voicing these concerns , except wanting to protect the culture . In fact these people often get attacked for doing this . In my mind , these people are a lot more credible than people using pictures and sensitive information to draw attention to themselves , or to make themselves seem important .

When I choose who to listen to, I choose the people who's behavior isn't going to offend Elders , or possibly damage the culture , and I also choose to listen to the people who aren't going to to personally gain - at the expense of the culture in general , from the position they are defending.

It can easily be proven that Vivien High Elk was expressing a very normal traditional concern , in what she said in that email , about not putting the Sacred on display , and not taking pictures of ceremonies .

So , why are you so quick to dismiss these concerns as irrelevent ?   It makes you sound like one of these people who expects to have access to "real ceremonial knowledge " but you don't expect to have to respect " real traditional protocols " .

I also notice you entirely side steped Taichia Hawk's questions from #4 through to #10 .

I hope you will answer those questions ... And in this thread .

The way you keep posting replys to one issue , in a thread on another isssue , is going to make it really hard for people to read in a months time , when they haven't got a clue what you are refering to , because it is in another thread .

[Marlon]

Hi Moma Porcupine,

Ok, my text is in green

You said "Just because a few Elders have occasionally allowed a picture to be taken in a ceremony or of a ceremonial object, or an Elder has spoken about ceremonies and SOMEONE ELSE has made this information available to the public in an insensitive way , dosn't mean this is generally seen as an OK thing to do "


From what I have gathered these medicine people knew exactly what they were doing when they gave  interviews, participated in writing books and allowed themselves to be photograhed for picitures in these books. That photo is of Old Man Elk with the sacred bundle. The other photos are of Martha Bad Warrior with the Canunpa wakan. See photo here.

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/Martha%20Bad%20Warrior%203rd%20&%20last%20bloodline%20Keeper.jpg


Now this is obvious this was done in a very respectful manor. There was no exploitation, they had no intention other than conveying information about their culture for historical and educational reasons.

Yes I understand this is a very sensitive matter, but so is making accusations and calling someone a fraud on the internet for the entire world to see, based on un substantiated evidence, hearsay, speculation and personal opinions.

I am not questioning Vivian High Elks point of view or her beliefs, or her legitimacy, or credibility. This is also not about my opinions or my views. This is about about www.Newageforum.org  slandering people and making false accusations.

By the way I forwarded Tachias email to Looking Back Woman and will provide the information if she chooses to. I do not have this and quite frankly do not see what this has to do with anything. I do not think anyone is questioning whether she is Lakota or that she is Calvin Duprees daughter?  I do not know her blood quantum or do not know the results of her DNA test if that's what you are looking for. Why don't you ask her your self?

Now you say " So , why are you so quick to dismiss these concerns as irrelevant ? It makes you sound like one of these people who expects to have access to "real ceremonial knowledge " but you don't expect to have to respect " real traditional protocols "

Moma porcupine. Don't waste your time. I am no expert in Lakota culture or have never claimed to be. This is not about me, this is about you and people on this fnewagefraud forum providing evidence, not only to me but to many people who now want to now see your proof that Looking Back Woman is a fraud. Its very simple. Looking Back Woman has made some claims. Now you and anyone else who has made what appears to be libelous and slanderous comments have to disprove her claims. If you cannot do this,
Just in case you do not know, slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community.

So where is your evidence that Looking Back Woman is a fraud. So far all you have provided me with is opinions about protocol, personal feelings and discussing the canunpa on the internet. That she may have offended some elders feelings with posting photographs of holding a canunpa her father gave her. Also for posting photographic evidence that her father was given this canunpa at a Sundance by Fools Crow in 1971.

A. These photos were posted by Looking Back Woman as photographic evidence and documentation about her family and her story. They were not posted to sell.  www.lookingbackwoman.com  See for yourself.

B. She has said she has not asked anyone to send her money based on these pictures or her canunpa. If you can prove she has set up a foundation based on this and is canvassing money. Show me the canceled checks and the evidence.

C. She has not sold Sundance ceremony, Inipi or anything else. If you can prove she has, show me the canceled checks and evidence. 


So far you have shown me is one email. I have that same email from last year and more from this same woman Vivian High Elk and many others. 

This email does not prove she is a fraud.

Now again for the third time, where is your evidence that Looking Back Woman is a fraud?

Just in case you are not aware of this book about Looking Back Woman's family and the history and the keepers of the canunpa wakan. Read this. You will see photos that are also documented in the Smithsonian institute with field notes by a man named Demalle. Check it out online. if you need more info on this please let me know.

Quest for the pipe - as viewed from Wounded Knee by Wilbur Riegert ,Chippewa


http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.MARTHA.PAGES.9.htm

[Moma_porcupine]

Now you and anyone else who has made what appears to be libelous and slanderous comments have to disprove her claims. If you cannot do this, Just in case you do not know, slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community.

Marlon
Are you saying LBW , who is claiming to be a very important Spiritual person , is going to sue me , or the other people in NAFPS , for trying to educate people on what is generally considered to be disrespectful or outright exploitation of traditional ways and ceremonies ?

At least it is clear what values and priorities are being promoted .

I am not Lakota and I am not in contact with people in the Lakota community , but there are people posting here who are.

By the way I forwarded Tachias email to Looking Back Woman and will provide the information if she chooses to. I do not have this and quite frankly do not see what this has to do with anything.

Taichia Hawks questions about what recognized Lakota Spiritual leaders within the Lakota community ,  recognize LBW's claims , and what Native organizations she serves,  have everything to do with verifying the legitimacy of her claims .  Not everybody born in Rome has the right to declare themselves the Pope .

As for "me' ,  it is not my business to comment on which Pipe LBW has , or how it came to her , and I have never done so . These are very sensitive internal matters . Which is part of my point .

If LBW is telling the truth , this would be an internal matter of grave importance to the Lakota community and such close to the heart matters do not belong all over the internet . That she has put it there , looks much more like grandstanding for a non native audience than any real concern for the wellbeing of the Lakota community .

My initial comments in the thread on the Thomas Lightening Bolt interview , were intended only as a general comment on people publishing information about Sacred things , and it is you who keeps trying to make this exclusively about LBW .

As it was LBW who put these sensitve issues in the public arena for consideration , neither you or LBW , has a right to complain or play the victim , because it is being publicly considered . Get real . 

If what you say really represents LBW's point of view , it sounds like this woman wants to go to a non native court to try and get the non native court to agree she is an is an important Lakota Spiritual leader . Such a desicion should be made by recognized lakota Elders within the Lakota community , not by non Lakota people on line,  or in a non native court .

I'd laugh out loud except I feel nauseated ...

I apologise to the Lakota people for having posted so much on this . It is an internal matter and really isn't any of my business. Which has been the point I have been trying to make all along .

[frederica]

I've been watching this, and I agree with Moma Porcupine this is a internal Lakota affair. And they should be allowed to settle this. I can recall when a non-NDN snatched a Hopi ceremonial mask from a Kiva and the Tribe had to go to court to retrieve this. Some of the Religious leaders had to testify in a non-Tribal court and were most unhappy as they had to reveal certain things that had never been revealed before. I don't know what anyone's motives are in this, but I see nothing good coming of it. frederica

[Marlon]

Hi  Moma Porcupine. Frederke, Tachia Since you have raised Vivian High Elk, and have floated a round a piece of her email to discredit Looking Back Woman repeatdly, discussed internet protocols, culture and the rest, maybe you should you see some more.

[Al's note: The emails were already in another thread. Marlon was going way off topic yet again. This thread is about his magazine, period. Sorry not telling him earlier to quit rambling and trying to dominate every last thread.]

[Marlon]

Hi Moma Porcupine,

IYou have still not provided me with any evidence to substantiate your claims. I have just provided you with another one of Vivian's emails since it looks like this is all you have to validate your claims. Looking Back Woman asked me to do this for her since she is having problems with accessing her password and entry to newgageforum

Looking Back Woman will provide Tachia with her registration any moment now.

PS. I have asked Barnaby  3 times to take my personal info off your site. Please do me a favor and ask AL Carroll or someone to take it off immediatly. 

[Al's note: Once again, his rambling off topic was deleted.]

[Marlon]

Hi Moma Porcupine,

Here is more evidence on the Martha Bad Warriors cununpa from the Simthsonian institute that Looing Back Woman has asked me to post.

[Al's note: Yet again off topic, rambling, and posted elsewhere. Not only that, posting on behalf of someone is a typical exploiter's habit.]

[tachia]

tachia,
Thank you for your posting yesterday, it could have not been said any better than that.
If Harold One Feather is in need of supporters up around the rap city area, could you let me know so I can get the word out on what he needs. Thanks

coffee drinker ..
wado equa ..
i have not received any updates on the situation with Harold .. i will keep you posted as i receive new info . thank you so much for your offer! .. i will indeed let you know as news comes to me on it .. ..
tachia

[tachia]

john ..
you do realize that you are doing nothing more than  regurgitating the same stuff, over and over .. to what point? .. none of the real issues are even being addressed .. your sidestepping everything valid with just more “opinion??? etc .. ..

the issue is NOT about a pipe ..
the issue is NOT about this woman’s father nor her family ..

and yet you keep going on and on about the pipe and her father etc .. as does she .. her entire site is dedicated to “proving??? that she is in possession of a pipe as well as “proving??? that she is calvin dupree’s daughter .. .. and yet none of this information even matters .. i for one could care less if she has a pipe and is calvin’s daughter .. good for her .. i am not questioning either of these things, nor is anyone else that i can see .. so .. why do you keep going on and on about these two things? .. and why does she? .. .. her entire web site is dedicated to these two things .. been  there, read it all, don’t care ..

as has already been stated .. whether or not she is calvin’s daughter and possesses his pipe is none of our concern .. that would be an internal matter for the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota etc Nations .. and anyone outside those Nations would be foolish indeed to interfere in that .. .. no one is going to be able to prove “who and what they are??? by spouting genealogy and claiming to be in possession of something that belonged to their father .. .. shrug .. most people have a genealogy and most people have things that were given to them by their parents .. no one really cares about these things .. these things do not make a person “who and what??? they are .. suzanne dupree cares about them and has made these two things paramount in her quest .. if these two things are even debatable, they are not going to be debated by me .. i will state again that these two things are an issue for the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota etc Nations .. .. ..

my concerns about suzanne’s claims lie in another direction completely .. now if you would like to discuss those concerns .. i will continue to participate in this thread .. if you are going to insist on simply regurgitating the same old stuff about the woman’s pipe and her genealogy .. and threatening all of us  .. then i have nothing more to say ..

this is a forum to which people come to discuss concerns about people who are causing all Indigenous peoples harm .. no one here claims to be an authority on anyone or anything .. we are all simply seeking information from each other .. and for you to come here threatening people with a slander or libel lawsuit is reprehensible and quite honestly, in my opinion, a bully tactic .. shrug .. i for one, am no one special, just an old woman with concerns and opinions .. and there are laws that protect my right to speak of my concerns and opinions with others, especially in a public forum .. now we can play power games, or we can have a dialogue .. your choice .. ..   

if you choose to converse further on this, choose to address the real issues on this topic that concern us .. your going to have to drop the BS and threats and realize that it is just a discussion, a dialogue of concerns and opinions .. if you wish to continue this conversation in an appropriate vein it would also behoove you to re-read my posting to you, which was merely a reversal of your posting to me .. (asking for incontrovertible evidence) .. as well as re-reading the posts of others .. .. there is a lot being said which you obviously do not understand .. ..

it has become very apparent to me that you have come here with a very specific agenda in mind .. i am refusing to participate in such an agenda  .. i am not qualified to do so .. and i do not really expect you to wish to continue the dialogue in the spirit of a friendly debate without the power trips and threats of legal ramifications .. i will not speak openly of my concerns and opinions with a threat hanging over every word i utter .. ..  .. shrug ..  .. ..

in the spirit of my ancestors ..
tachia

[tachia]

john ..
i have a request ..
can we please keep this discussion in this one thread and not all over  the board .. .. i have only a very slow dial up connection to the internet .. i am simply not able to bounce around from thread to thread  in order to see your posts to me and others on this .. ..

i was able to read the other threads  .. and i did notice that your friend, and mine, Harold One Feather has stated that his opinion of Dupree is that she is a fraud .. shrug ..
after reading the other threads .. i am sure that you simply do not. nor can you even conceive of, what the word “fraud??? articulates for  us .. you are viewing this issue, understandably,  from a white perspective of what is ndn .. while we are viewing it from the ndn perspective of what is ndn .. .. in my many years of dialogue with non-ndn’s this has quite often proved to be problematic in attempting to understand one another .. we (ndn’s) have the advantage of being educated in the ways of whites (through forced assimilation practices) and thereby know how to ‘switch’ to that mode of thinking as a basis for conversing with whites .. you do not have the same advantage .. you were not educated in the ways of ndn’s and therefore have no understanding of the complexities of our ways and how we converse .. .. we ‘bend’ to attempt to understand whites .. and yet whites have a very difficult, if not impossible, time ‘bending’ to attempt to understand us .. one first has to take the time to learn how very different we view the world .. are you willing to take the time to learn in order to continue this dialogue? .. so far as i have seen, you are not even making an attempt .. you simply belittle everything we say as if you alone were the authority .. you are speaking to us from a position of white privilege and assumed superiority .. and in doing so this dialogue will go absolutely nowhere .. again, the choice is yours .. ..
sincerely
tachia

[Marlon]

So what does this word fraud mean to you and why does it mean anything other than Dr Als meaning of "fraud" listed on www.newage.org forum about us page?

ABOUT US


What We Do & How We Differ From Nuage Frauds


Now this is the word that has been applied to Looking Back Woman over and over again. This is the context it was applied in. Newage fraud,org  web site. Now read again how your site defines fraud.

Are you saying that when you called her a fraud. you did not mean any of the above. You are not heyoka by the way are you?  Meaning that when you call some one a fraud you really mean the exact opposite. meaning sincere, honest, trustworthy, authentic?

[Al's note: Unnecessary duplicate material removed. Just the links are fine, thanks. We generally only reproduce all the material from a link when it's a fraud site that might remove the material to hide evidence when they've been caught doing wrong.]

[Marlon]

Hi Tachia,

This is what you just said.

"if you choose to converse further on this, choose to address the real issues on this topic that concern us .. your going to have to drop the BS and threats and realize that it is just a discussion, a dialogue of concerns and opinions .. if you wish to continue this conversation in an appropriate vein it would also behoove you to re-read my posting to you, which was merely a reversal of your posting to me .. (asking for incontrovertible evidence) .. as well as re-reading the posts of others .. .. there is a lot being said which you obviously do not understand"

What are the real issues here?

[More off topic rambling deleted.]

So why don't you enlighten me on what I don't understand and on what is being said. What have I missed out on?

That's interesting. What BS. Are you now questioning my honesty?  What do you mean by BS?

What threats? You mean the slander word. Im sure you must know the meaning of this word by now. Who threatened suing anyone. Why do you think I would waste my time and money on something as silly as that. Or even play those childish games.

[Al's note: See earlier. Marlon threatened lawsuits repeatedly, as has Dupree.]

[More off topic rambling deleted.]

[Marlon]

Hi Al,

You deleted a very important point there.

[Al's note: Actually I deleted a rmabling off topic point which Marlon has said repeatedly on several threads. It's no my fault if he's slow to cathc on.]

Tachia raised the issue of what fraud means to her and how I have a misunderstanding of the word in her culture. Now she works for new age forum.

[Actually, no she doesn't. No one "works for" us. No one makes a penny. We're all volunteers. Many of us take money out of our own pocket for this cause we believe in deeply.]

You have spelled out what this means on your "who we are page".  Which is exactly the same meaning that I apply to this word. Now why would Tachia  all of a sudden have another understanding of this word?

Why would she ask me to bend backwards to understand what fraud means to her?  As if she meant something else by calling Looking Back Woman a plastic "sham on" yesterday. I don't think there are many other ways to see this, or I don't think this is a question of semantics, or deep philosophical truths.

That has got to be the most [childish insult] anyone has ever presented to me yet on your forum. As far as [childish insults] goes .That's [childish insult].

The tactic of having your friends jump in feeds and say they agree with you is not make it truth.

[Al's note: It's no "tactic." No one is receiving any orders. And Tachia is actually fairly new here.]

In fact its transparant is very telling about certain people on your forum. I could easily send out a 1,000 person group email tonight and ask all my friends around the world to join in. What would that prove.

Her last email looked to me like pure evasiveness and if she was just trying to change the subject and turn this into a "you dont understand my culture routine"  I dont need to understand the navaho culture to know thie meaning of fraud. I will ask about this.

[More rambling deleted, this time so condescending it borders on being racist, "Let me school those dumb Indians."]

I do not think deleting that makes any sense at all?

[When you ramble, waste people's time, and come in as a white man feeling obviosly superior to the Dumb Indians trying to dominate a Native forum, yes it makes perfect sense. Stay on topic and learn to be more respectful and listen more than talk.]
 
The issue here is fraud, decption. misrepresentation etc ?  and whether this has been commited by Looking Back Woman .

Whether it has been addressed a million times on other feeds about other people is irrelevant. It has never been addressed in reference to Looking Back Woman and your websites claims by me.

[It's not our fault if you decide not to read what's right in front of you, or call what everyone else says "gossip" and decide this woman is beyond criticism.]

[Marlon]

Hi Tachia,

I still did not get a chance to address much of what you have said and in no way avoiding any of you comments or questions . In fact I just saved it all onto my hard drive. Its easier for me to go through this one piece at a time. I would like to start at the beginning  of why you found my site disturbing. I will high light my text in green.

You said " i spend very long hours researching a person as thoroughly as i can before forming an opinion of them .. this whole group does this .. i do not go around “trashing??? people based on “conjecture, intuition, speculation, hearsay, gossip and third party information??? .. i do not 'trash' people period .. i will, and do, form an educated opinion and speak to others about the person/s in question .. as well as attempting to warn others of the persons motives if they are nefarious ..
you are giving people, like dupree, maximum exposure .. you do not question the credibility of these frauds and therefore your readers do not question it either .. your articles/interviews come across to the reader as FACT .. come across to the reader as if these frauds truly were what they all claim to be .. this is misleading to say the very least .. and in my opinion it IS promotion of the frauds .. there is not a hint of any of the frauds being other than that which they claim to be .. you are portraying the frauds solely as they claim to be without question of their validity, credentials or their standing in the ndn nations/communities, without any reference to the opinions of what the ndn peoples themselves think of these individuals .. .. your promoting them to the 'millions' of readers you have, thus garnering for them many more 'followers' .. which is exactly what all charlatans want .. are your articles/interviews of these frauds, like dupree, based on “fact, logic, reason or truth??? or based solely on what the frauds themselves are telling you is fact, logic, reason and truth? .. where is the objective reporting? .. where is the other side of the coin? .. where is the ndn perspective on these frauds?



As far as Looking Back Woman is concerned, she contacted me and left a link to her site.  I then asked her for an interview when I saw photos of her with John Fire Lame Deer and Black Elk and Fools Crow . I understand you are not Lakota, so you may not know who some of these people are. She also told and showed me much more off the record. Photos, emails, letters, that only a few others have access to. This was enough evidence for me to see that she is worth interviewing and asking further questions. Then others also validated her claims with more emails.
There are many other issues you may not be aware of since you are not Lakota which I will not go into on your forum.
I did question her on the reasons behind all her allegations. The pipe, how she came by this, how she uses it. 
Maybe you should read it again and get back to me on what exact parts concern you.  Other wise your comments like "fraud" are too vague and slanderous.   That's like calling someone a rapist. Anyone can do that.  What I am saying is lets do a metaphorical "rape test"  Lets forensically examine the evidence or lack of it that you have presented to substantiate your claims. so far you have shown me 1 email and a feed in which Carter Camp expresses his opinions. I read of about him by the way in Steve Hendricks book of the murder of Ana Mae.
 I think this need to be dissected as if you were searching for a microbe under microscope. Please see here. http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.FEATURES.%20LBW.PART.1.htm
She then provided me with photographic documents about her father, her canunpa, her birth certificate, her registration in South Dakota and much much more.  I included some of these photos in the interview .. also some of the newspaper clippings.
Now what exactly is it about what she has said you take issue. with, This sound more personal to me than anything else. Are you related to any of the people they has mentioned. Or are any of the people she has mentioned ar linked to people on the new age forum Like Al Carol in nay way. if so, isn't that a conflict of interest? 

SPIRITS FOR SALE

presenting
Chief Arvol Looking Horse, Al Carroll, Vic Camp, Andrew Thomas, Gayle Ross
Sales and info:  levande.bilder@swipnet.se   tel. + 46 31 410110


You see, I can say you making a movie about exploitation about native causes being exploited and then selling this film or a book about this can also be interpreted as doing the exact same thing in another way. Now your argument is but I need to make a living, im just doing this to raise awareness, im not in this for the money and so on and so on. Why don't you tell that to the people that are living in poverty on in Pine Ridge. I have asked these people that question about people who makes films about them .They so far have all told me they never get to see any of the profits or any of the money. They don't even get paid to do the interviews in most cases.

the fact is Al Carroll is selling books, making films and giving seminars in Europe on his own people being exploited by what he refers to as "frauds and plastic shamans" and then questions the motivations of others like Thomas mails or others who write books about his own people could easily be perceived as hypocritical. You can not have one standard for your self and another for everyone else.

[Marlon]

Hi Tachia,

REBUTTEL

next part of your first email.

This may take a few days to a week . I get a deluge of emails on have to daily basis. Just want you to understand this takes time.


You said,   The interview with Looking Back Woman is about her claims about the Canupa her father Calvin Dupree gave her. There is no doubt this is Fools Crows ceremonial Sundance Canunpa. No one disputes this. Even the people you cited. I know since I as privy to this feed you posted and much much more for many months.
i am sorry, but for you to state: “There is no doubt this is Fools Crows ceremonial Sundance Canunpa. is simply erroneous .. Fools Crow gave many pipes to many people .. perhaps there is little doubt that this is one of those pipes, one given to dupree’s father by Fools Crow .. yet is it THE Sacred Canupa, is it Fool Crows Personal ceremonial Canupa? .. no! .. .. it is a pipe, perhaps sacred, perhaps not, i would think that would depend on how it is now being used .. my personal opinion of how dupree is ‘attempting’ to use this pipe, is that she is profaning the sacred .. ..

Now can you please provide me the since of the names of who was given what here and when and why my comments were "simply erroneous"  That what she has was not fools crow canupa. Why don't you ask Vivian High Elk who's cannupa it was?
Now for your personal opinion of "what dupree is attempting to use this pipe is that she is profaning the sacred"
Why don't you tell us all exactly why you think this is and why exactly you mean by this?
Your who we are page says this is who you are.
What We Do & How We Differ From Nuage Frauds

[Duplicate material removed. Just a link is fine.]

Are you claming that looking  back woman has  done any of these things?  If so, once again why don't you prove how so to your audience? 

I have a question for you. Why is it that today is Saturday and this dialogue began last Tuesday and you still have not answered a very simple question?

Show me she has sold ceremonies, workshops, seminars, healings, readings, "asteroid avoidance courses" (yes, some frauds actually do), or anything else like that.

I will go on to the next question and will do it in segments if you dont mind. Maybe Al /Educated Indian would be so kind to insert your comments for teh record. Or I can do and post it back.



[Note: Members are responsible for their own comments.]