I agree Lekay doesn't seem to have a clue who or what he is promoting . That's assuming Lekay has the good intentions he claims .
I see Lekay has published another article attempting to discredit the information posted in NAFPS . Sorry if this seems like I am beating a dead horse . I just can't resist poking at misleading arguements that don't even fit together .
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:BfaEazpNtTgJ:www.heyokamagazine.com/MUSIC.Tommy.2.htm+Heyoka+NAFPS&hl=en&ct
=clnk&cd=3&gl=caLekay
A part of It appears its based on this Green Grass proclamation Why would anyone want the Bush Cheney administration telling people how to pray. That's bizarre.
Thomas Lightening bolt
Thank you for sending me a copy of that "Green Grass Proclamation" by Arvol Looking Horse. You are right, that is BIZZAR!
What seems bizzar to me is that Lekay and TLB would try and discredit the many recognized Elders who are listed with this proclamation , who are trying to protect their culture , by attributing this proclamation to the Bush Cheney administration .
Lekay - refering to Al
He does comes across as if he wants to start another Helta skelta. A race war.
Lekay has already seen that people posting in NAFPS generally challenge anyone being dishonest , deceptive , disrepectful or exploitive , in their use of Native culture , regardless of their race . People post here generally do this purely on principal and Lekay has seen this in our concens about some of the people of Native descent Lekay has promoted.
If Lekay sees this conflict as based on race, as he says , that would be non natives against Indians . As Lekay has said the Indians who are trying to protect their culture are "bizzar" , it would seem to follow that Lekay must be thinking it is the group of mainly non native people , and the Native people who serve non native intrests , who arn't bizzar . Presumably Lekay is supporting the people he thinks aren't bizzar which is by his own addmission would seem to be the group which is primarily non native.
I guess it is good to know what side he is on , even if he hasn't consciously figured this out yet , himself ... Hopefully when he does, he might rethink his position .
TLB
The old smear campaign against medicine people, divide and conquer concept
It looks to me like the divisions that exist would be between a group of Native people wanting to keep the traditional ways healthy by retaining them in a correct cultural context , and another group of mainly non native people , who are creating divisions and conquering Indian people and intrests , through diverting Native people to serve their own interests .
As the only people with any legitimate claim to authority in Native matters would be Native people recognized as authoritive by their tribe , if anyone is getting smeared , it would have to be the true tribal Spiritual leaders .
TLB
That proclamation is ALL politics and my teacher said that politics is not Native American, it is a "white thing".
The proclomation refered to is NOT all about politics - though this attempt to discredit it might be . Undermining the authority of the Native leaders who serve the long term health and well being of their people and culture also undermines the survival of Native people and culture. Hmmm .... Who would want to do something like that ? As I understand it that proclamation is all about preserving these traditions for future generations and the importance of maintaining these traditions within the balance only a deeply rooted knowledgeable traditional community can provide .
Lekay
What I do see is a pattern that Al Carroll/educated Indian attacks anyone who seems to not to fit into his compartment of what he believes an authentic medicine man should be.
TLB
Who made these people God? How are they qualified to sit on judgment on anyone? Who qualified them, the evil spirits, powers, and forces...or the Government?
I am always puzzled how it can be, that people who want to gain credibility by claiming to be practicing some sort of Native traditions , also want to be able to contradict themselves by claiming they have a right to " do their own thing" , and these people will say no one has a right to judge if this is being done correctly . Sorry , but it can't be both ways . Native traditions have a structure, and protocols and if these are lost , what is being done cannot rightly be claimed to be Native traditions . If people want to invent things they should just call it that . Not "traditional " or Indian .
When people start insisting no one should judge , this implies there is no correct way to do these things . This attidude seems to rely upon the very racist assupmtion that presumes that there is no reason for how things are done, beyond superstision ,and no matter how people do things , the consequences will be the same . This disrespectful attitude seem to presume that if people just want to make something up or are delusional that is just as valuable as the years of training and traditional protocols Elders say must be respected for these things to work properly . Which doesn't say much for the opinion these people have of the traditional knowledge of indiginous peoples .
This attituded of disrespect for traditional authorities and protocols gets repeated throughout this interview .
TLB
And who the heck is Arvol to say anything about people selling the "sacred" when he himself was (or still is) selling copies
of the sacred "Star Book" ON LINE!
Who the heck is TLB
? Why would Lekay even imagine that TLB , who , as I understand it , claims his teacher is someone called Coyote , who TLB claims is really Fools Crow , who now exists in another dimension , is an authoritive person to ask about anything?
Any allegations coming from these two have almost no credibility as far as I am concerned . but if this alleged sale of the "Star book" occured, and was not the best thing to do , I am sure the Lakota community would be able to address this . This is one of the reasons it is so crucial that Spiritual traditions exist within a community which has enough knowledge to make sure things stay on track , because no individual has enough personal strength and knowledge to able to do this on their own .
And there is still more no brainers ...
TLB
How ever just because someone may sell ceremony does not necessarily make them phony, it throws into question their ethics.
TLB:
I WANT a medicine man that has made mistakes, someone who has been there, who has had life experiences. Someone that I can relate to. Someone I can respect. To me, a flawless medicine man is phony.
Apparently it hasn't occured to him , that there is a connection between Spirituality and ethical behavior , or that people trusted as healers and guides who haven't got strong moral backbone can be as dangerous as medicine swallowed with the help of dirty water. Having learned from past mistakes and having humility is completely different than being untrustworthy . And if people have committed serious crimes, I don't think these people can reasonably expect to keep this secret and have access to people of the same description as their previous victims .
Lekay to TLB
Yes. So you never have done any of the things these newagefraud people have accused you off. Sold ceremony, healings etc.
Lekay doesn't even keep his basic facts straight . Nobody ever accused TLB of selling ceremonies healings ect .The concern was his obvious self promotion and immodest public claims to be carrying medicine .
TLB
as for claiming to be a medicine man ect... didn't Black Elk say he was a medicine man and talk about medicine in a public forum, along with many other "Untouchables" (people beyond reproach) Fools Crow, Geronimo, Lame Deer ect... ?
As I understand it , this information was shared at a time before there was wide spread exploitation of information belonging to Native communities , and it was shared out of a concern the information could be lost . A person doing what they thought best to preserve cultural information is different , than talking about these things in conjunction with promoting the sale of a CD .
TLB
The part that concerns me the most is that some one who may need help AND IS WORTHY OF HELP may take these evil lies to heart and not ask the one person at the right time, at the right place, who could of helped them and not receive the healing that they DESERVED,
People deserve to be able to choose who they get involved with based on correct information about who this person is and what this person actually knows .
Lekay
In my opinion Kevin Annett deserves a Nobel peace prize and his film unrepentant an Academy award for best new documentary and not this newagefraud nonsense.
At first glance any critism of Kevin Annett might appear to be unfounded and unfair , but a closer look reveals some serious ethical concerns . It is a lot to read through , and unfortunantly , it is so much easier to just do a quick glance and look at how things appear on the surface . Which is how people who are exploiters manage to get away with what they do . For people who want more information on the contraversy surounding Annett , it can be found in this thread .
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1231.0Gotta wonder what really motivates some people .
