Heyoka Magazine & John Lekay

[Marlon]

Ok, next part.

I said " She answered most of my questions. I think her position is crystal clear. My intention was to find out exactly what this is, who she is and what this issue is about. This is impossible to know from just an interview. I still don't know the answers and much of this is still surrounded in mystery"

You said

i would agree that she has made her position “crystal clear??? .. it is exceedingly clear to myself as well as a great many others that she intends to set herself up as the 'new leading plastic-shame-on' for the lost wonder bread children .. with no thought to the ndn peoples themselves whatsoever

Are you [childish insult] by the way. You seem to be [childish insult]. Now why do you think "she is intends to set her self up as a new age plastic shame-on for the lost wonder bread children "

Does wonder bread mean Caucasian "white" people. Does that mean you are [childish insult] Meaning [childish insult] is good and wonder bread and white mean something less wholesome.
Now on your who we are page it says.

If anything we are an ANTI-hate group...

[Note: It's not Tachia's page. No idea why Marlon sees a vast conspiracy.]

If referring to Caucasian as "lost wonder bread children" is not prejudicial to be polite, then why don't you enlighten me on what this  phrase means to you?

Are you also inferring she has "lost wonder bread" followers?

[Dupree actually does, at least over in Europe. And I have no idea why Marlon imagines wonder bread to refer to race instead a culture.]

[Marlon]

NEXT.

I said "As far as Rolling Thunder is concerned I have read all the negative commentary about him. I never net him but know others that knew him very well and lived with him.
I still find him interesting for many reasons.  That's why I posted the old interview from the 70s.


You said
so all of the “negative commentary about him??? is "negated by “third party information??? ..?? .. do you not think that those who were so obviously his followers, “knew him and lived with him??? would have other than negative opinions of him? .. or perhaps not, you don’t exactly say what these 'others??? who knew him, think of him .. i am merely left to assume that they spoke highly enough of him to negate all the negative you read and you still “find him interesting enough??? to promote him in your magazine ..again, where is the objectivity, the other side? .. 

I gave this more thought and deleted his post. Not worth the argument  at this point and will put this in the "under investigation" category on my list.

I said : As far as plastic medicine men and shamans and wanna be new medicine men or new age white guys doing sweat lodges, what else is new. Freud runs in every culture. The world is riddled with cults and all this nonsense and con artists.

you said
the fact that this sort of thing exists, makes it alright??? .. this sort of thing is acceptable? .. we should all just accept this and do nothing to try to stop it? .. .. “what else is new??? .. ?? .. i find that attitude extremely flippant, as if you simply do not care .. which might explain why you promote these 'plastic shame-ons' and do absolutely nothing to even attempt to give another view of them ..

Rebuttell.

I was not promoting him, just posting an interview because I liked what he said about finding the herbs he would use in his healing methods. As far as my attitude and  how it appears to you and how much I care is not important.  This is a question of perception and a futile argument.

I have asked you to do an interview about this. I have also asked Al  Carroll .  I will give you the same space, energy and time. I can also cut and past this entire discussion and add photos to it, unedited if you like. Maybe just do a quick spell check. Would that suffice?  the only thing I would need from you is a disclaimer in terms of anyone suing for slander or defamation of character.  You  have named a lot of people here.

[Marlon]

I said "From what I have been told by various medicine people and elders, Lakota, Cree, Navajo, Apache, Cherekee, all canupa are sacred. I don't think that is the question"


You said " indeed it is my understanding as well that all Canupa are Sacred when they are used in a sacred manner .. i am not of the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota etc (sioux) peoples, so it is not my place to speak of these things .. yet i will say that the Sacred Canupa is of the Lakota, etc. peoples .. and i can tell you for a fact that the Canupa is NOT Cree, Dine’ (navajo), Apache, nor Tsalagi (cherokee) .. individuals of these nations/tribes/bands might now possess a Canupa, yet it is not of their peoples .. we all had 'pipes', only the Lakota etc. had the Sacred Canupa .. your correct, all Canupas are sacred when used in a sacred manner, and whether or not the woman is in possession of her fathers Canupa, is not the question, yet there are many other questions that center around her possession and usage of her fathers Canupa .. ..

I ask

What are the questions.  as far as the canunpa is concerned read this interview about it from the president of pipe makers and what he says about it.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.BudJOHNSTON.htm

[Marlon]

Hi said
Anyone who claims they are enlightened in my book they are not. Anyone who calls them selves holy they are not. As far as being sacred, we all are. Everything is. At a subatomic level feces and a diamond is the same thing. That makes you or I or anyone else no better than feces on that level including all these so called holy people.

You said"  perhaps you hold this opinion, because you have not ever met a truly 'enlightened' person'

I said. 
Yes you are absolutely right. 

Go to a library or try and get to a friends house and see the UG khrishnamurti  Videos  he is not new age by the age, India has been around a long time.

You said.
.. .. my opinion of the frauds you promote, by giving them center stage in your magazine, would most definitely be “feces??? . ..

So who are you calling feces? 

Remember I was talking about sub atomic particles and making the comparison with a diamond. meaning we are all the same on that level and on every other level in my opinion.  I also said as far as being sacred, we all are.

Now you have taken this word and applied it to people I have interviewed. im sure people would like to know exactly who you are calling feces and what is your criteria for doing so?

Just in case this is another question of semantics or Navajo understanding of the word feces.

[More condescending material removed.]

Is your understanding of this word feces any other than excrement, fouls smelling stool , if so please explain why.

I am trying to bend over backwards to understand your use of language like you requested earlier when you said fraud to an ndn is not the same as to a white person.
What about feces. is an ndns feces any different than a lost wonderbreads feces?

[More condescending...]

That's just an example by the way. So what do you mean by feces?

[This is getting unintentionally comical.]

[Freija]

SPIRITS FOR SALE

presenting
Chief Arvol Looking Horse, Al Carroll, Vic Camp, Andrew Thomas, Gayle Ross
Sales and info:  levande.bilder@swipnet.se   tel. + 46 31 410110


You see, I can say you making a movie about exploitation about native causes being exploited and then selling this film or a book about this can also be interpreted as doing the exact same thing in another way.

Marlon, hi, pleased to meet you. I am one of the producers of the film "Spirits for Sale".
I understand your concern since we, non-Natives, have used and abused American Indians for our own gain for centuries! The people in the film contributed for free. None of them would ever ask for anything in return - I am honoured to say that they are friends of mine, they know why I am making this film, they are concerned about the ongoing exploitation. It is all about trust...

Why don't you tell that to the people that are living in poverty on in Pine Ridge. I have asked these people that question about people who makes films about them .They so far have all told me they never get to see any of the profits or any of the money. They don't even get paid to do the interviews in most cases.

I am certainly aware of the above and it is tragic. The budget for the film is 100.000 dollars. We have no fundings, noone in Europe wanted to sponsor us. I used my lifesavings and I might loose it all. In which case it has still been worth it! On the other hand, I could break even and I could even make a profit. This profit will go back to, above all, the Lakota people who were so generous and helpful when we visited SD.  They gave us a priceless gift when they shared. There is no way I would betray their trust.

So the same way as Mr. Carroll gave most of his money from the European tour to Native causes, and the same way he and another 10 Native writers contributed for free to the bookproject - which raised 8000 dollars to Albuquerque Indian Center - the same way it is my deepest hope that this film will bring money to Native people on Pine Ridge and other places. It might take some years before we break even, though. IF we do.

Should you have any more queries regarding the film, I´d be pleased to provide you with information.

Let me quote one of the lovely Indian ladies in the film, Gayle Ross:
"They (non-Natives) cannot just take and take and take and take....some day they have to learn to give back. And one way of giving back is to acknowledge the fact that everything is not there for them to take."

[Marlon]

 You said

" I simply cannot condone, nor approve of, any publication that promotes frauds, no matter how good it may be in other content .. .. it simply seems 'two faced' to me .. on the one hand you support and promote 'plastic shame-ons' who dupe innocent people and cause great harm to all ndn peoples .. and on the other hand you support and promote several ndn environmental issues .. a contradiction which i cannot condone .. “with friends like you, who needs enemies??? .. shrug .. any good that you do is negated with the harm that you perpetuate in your support and promotion of the frauds .. ..


I said. " I have never asked you to condone or support, approval, validate, or accept my magazine. I have also not asked you to be my friend or need you as a friend or my enemy. to me it makes no defense. are you under some kind of impression that i am looking fron support from native peoples. Becus ew have mutual friends like  Harold does automatically mean you become my best bubby.

you  said.  perhaps you simply do not know that this too, is an ndn issue of grave importance with devastating consequences? .. the proliferation of 'plastic shame-ons' IS a very crucial issue! ..

What I think is much more devastating than a wana be medicine white man dressed up as Pocahontas is  poverty, see here.

http://heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.2.Q&A.BRENDA%20APLIN.htm

the violation of broken treaties,

http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.DefendersVideo.htm

the environment,
www.silkwwoodproject.com

 human rights abuse,
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.6.GarvardGoodPlume.Interview.htm

alcoholism  drug abuse
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.MelanieMcbee.htm

and  rape of Indian woman.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.7.HUMAN-RIGHTS.Rape.htm

prejudiem, hatred. and so on.

You said. "perhaps you simply do not realize that this Issue is nothing less than Genocide for all indigenous peoples .. why bother to help the Paha Sapa groups save their lands and save lives,  when you advocate their genocide by supporting these frauds? ..

Being a plastic shaman in any strecth of the imagination is genocide. this is genocide.
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.8.NewWorldHolocaust.htm

[Marlon]

Hi Freija,

Very nice to meet you too. Thats great news.  Congratualtions on your film and look forward to seeing it.

That is highly commendable of you for doing such a thing. Im also glad to hear about the book and where the money has gone. Also good to know Al Carroll gave most of his money from his European tour to native causes and also contributed to the book.

You are a great example in my opinion with what this world needs. Do you know Kevin Annett by the way.  He also made a great film called "unrepentant."  its now on google. Worth seeing.

[Marlon]

Tachia,
Noticed links were broken.

broken treaties.
http://www.defendblackhills.org/

environment.
www.silkwoodproject.com

Now do you mean that just because i interviewed a couple of people who don't personally  like negates al the positive attention I have brought around world to these issues . I thought [childish insult]. You sound like [childish insult].

Are you [childish insult]

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Do you know Kevin Annett by the way.  He also made a great film called "unrepentant."

Please stop promoting Kevin Annett. It's extremely ironic that he called his film "Unrepentant", since he's still leeching off the pain of residential school survivors after abusing their trust to such an extent that one group, - Circle of Justice - publicly dissociated themselves from him eight years ago. It's hard to imagine a more despicable occupation.

That you appear not to know this speaks volumes about your credulity. Don't tell me you're not promoting him: as with the other frauds you promote, you either have not bothered to do any research or are blithely unconcerned about those who contradict what you want to hear. After reading these pages, perhaps you'll have some idea why I found the PR photo of Annett on your site so revolting.

http://sisis.nativeweb.org/resschool/main.html

http://sisis.nativeweb.org/resschool/sep2898coj.html

[Marlon]

Hi Barnaby,

 I have to ask you this on the record.  Are you in the FBI?

[ROFL! Anyone whose met Barnaby or seen a photo of him would find this pretty funny. He's a longhaired Englishman and animal rights activist with back problems, all four of which would keep him out of the FBI.] 

Anyway, heres an update on whats going on.

Kevin Annett / Eagle Strong Voice
Secretary, The Truth Commission into Genocide in Canada
hiddenfromhistory@yahoo.ca
pager: 1-888-265-1007
(h) 250-753-3345
www.hiddenfromhistory.org

[I deleted yet again more off topic material, but left up the link for anone interested.]

[tachia]

john .. ..

to clarify quite a few of your misconceptions concerning me ..

1) as i have already stated: i am no one special .. i am just an old woman with opinions and concerns .. nothing more .. i am entitled to my opinions and concerns and  i have a right to speak openly about them  ..

2) i am not, nor do i claim to be, an expert nor an authority on anything or anyone .. in fact i very clearly state that i am just an old woman and nothing more ..

3) this forum is: “newage fraud.org??? .. not “newage.org??? or “newage forum??? as you repeatedly insist on referring to it .. (that is why the link “newage.org???, as you have posted it, will not work, that is not a valid link to anything)

4).. i do not “work??? for this forum in any way, shape, or form ..also this is not “my??? forum .. i am not even a long time member, i am a relatively new member of this forum

5) to my knowledge this is just a forum, one of several forums and groups on the internet that i am a member of .. to my knowledge this is nothing more than a place to come and talk with others who have similar opinions and concerns ..

6) i do not know “Dr. Al???, i have never met him, never had a conversation with him, nor do i “work??? for him .. i am not associated with him in any form other than  being a member of this forum ..

7) i am not Lakota/Dakota/Nakota etc .. therefore i am not Heyoka either .. (and that remark was petty and snide)

8} this, and all other “posts??? of mine in this forum, are just that .. posts in a forum .. they are not emails to you .. they are merely posts expressing my opinions and concerns on an open public forum .. a post in a public forum cannot be considered an email ..

9) you are confusing me with someone else in this forum .. i have not shown you: “1 email and a feed in which Carter Camp expresses his opinions??? .. i have not directed you to any web sites, emails, feeds, etc ..  i have not “shown??? you anything .. i have merely expressed  my own personal opinions based on my own personal research of this subject .. and again my public posts in this forum are not “emails??? to you and cannot be considered as such ..

10) i never even intimated that my definition of the word “fraud??? is something different than the accepted dictionary definition .. i merely intimated that your far too hung up on the semantics of the word to see the complexities within it ..

11) “having your friends jump in feeds and say they agree??? .. this is petty and irrelevant .. you have brought people into other threads to express their views .. a few members of this forum have entered into this conversation to express their views .. we are all adults, and i do not think any of us are playing a playground game of ‘having our friends come back us up??? .. do you seriously believe this to be the case? .. if so then you are also guilty of such behavior .. shrug .. personally, i do not subscribe to such childish behavior .. i will only comment and/or join a conversation, if i wish to .. definitely not to ‘back up a anyone else’ ..

12) i am not “linked??? in any way whatsoever to any of dupree’s detractors, supporters, nor to anyone here in this forum .. my opinions and concerns about Dupree and others like her are my own, they are not dependent nor attached to any ‘agenda’ .. therefore, my opinions cannot be construed as a “conflict of interest??? ..

13) as i am not affiliated in any way whatsoever with al carrol, arvol looking horse, or any of the other people you mention as being a part of “spirits for sale??? .. and indeed have no knowledge of this .. how can i possibly be “making a movie about exploitation .. .. “
you continually and consistently attribute things specifically to me which have absolutely nothing to do with me  .. i would have thought that a “reporter??? would be much more careful with what he presents as “fact??? .. .. by your own  definition “slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. .. with this definition and all the things you are erroneously attributing to me .. should i interpret these erroneous statements that you are making  about me as being slanderous? ..

14) “Your who we are page says this is who you are. What We Do & How We Differ From Nuage Frauds???  .. again, this is not my forum, i am not employed by this forum, etc .. the “who we are page??? is not mine, i did not write it, etc .. that page does say who i am .. you have repeated this unfounded allegation several times, attempting to somehow intimate that this is my forum or that i am some sort of administrator ..  when it is very apparent that i am merely a member (1 of 348) and a new one at that .. ..  please get your facts straight and stop erroneously attributing such things to me ..

15) “I have asked you to do an interview about this. I have also asked Al  Carroll .  I will give you the same space, energy and time. I can also cut and past this entire discussion and add photos to it, unedited if you like. Maybe just do a quick spell check. Would that suffice?  the only thing I would need from you is a disclaimer in terms of anyone suing for slander or defamation of character.  You  have named a lot of people here.. ..
a) you have never directly asked me to do an  interview ..
b) i have already stated that you do NOT have my permission to print any of my words in your magazine or anywhere else .. nor will i likely ever give that permission under the present circumstances ..
 c) i have not named anyone, i merely referred to suzanne dupree in my responses to you and others about her, this reference is merely denoting who i am speaking of .. again you are confusing me with others ..

16) your apparently under the mistaken impression that i am Dine’ (navajo) .. i have not claimed to be of Dine’ linage nor in other way intimated that i am .. how did you come to this conclusion? .. i am not Dine’, i do not have any Dine’ lineage whatsoever .. ..

so .. i will reiterate and hope that this time you "get it" ..  .. i am just an old woman with opinions and concerns .. period .. i have no agenda, hidden or otherwise .. i joined this forum to voice some of those opinions and concerns, nothing more ..
i have only posted in this forum a few times .. i am not a regular contributing member per se .. i am still quite new to this forum ..i have no friends in here, indeed i do not even know anyone in here other than Harold .. and i only know Harold from another forum ..  .. in all actuality, i probably would not have joined in this particular discussion at all had you not sent me a personal message alerting me to your re-opening of this topic and asking for my input .. i am the OP of this thread, yet it would behoove you to notice where i placed my query about your magazine .. within “needs research??? .. meaning that i simply thought your magazine and its content might just possibly warrant some research .. i have made absolutely no accusations whatsoever .. i have merely expressed my own opinions .. .. .. a total of 4 posts, including my OP, were posted on this on January 30th, 2006 .. this thread has remained dormant since that date .. until you re-opened it .. the only reason i re-entered this thread was at your behest .. and quite honestly, if i had had any inkling of your intent, i would have declined your invitation to participate in this discussion ..

i have dealt with a great number of people like you .. it is rarely a pleasant experience and is certainly not one i wish to repeat, given a choice .. in my opinion, attempting to talk with someone such as yourself, is futile and quite simply a waste of everyone’s time .. yours as well as mine .. your  obviously deeply imbedded preconceived notions of ndn, as well as your argumentative demeanor,  preclude any fruitful dialogue between us .. this is not intended to be in any way a condemnation of your character .. it is merely my own personal opinion .. an in no way reflects anything but my own personal opinion .. ..

to be quite honest, i do not feel as if i am educated enough nor articulate enough to have this dialogue with you .. i am simply not able to keep up with your many vagaries, the twists and turns of your way of conversing is foreign to my understanding and comprehension .. although apparently quite acceptable in your world ..  your antagonism, sarcasm, innuendo, disrespect, and blatant mockery of others is an unacceptable form of communication to me .. and as i feel completely unqualified to respond in kind .. i must decline to participate .. it appears to merely be an exercise in futility to me .. i see no point .. based on what i have seen so far .. your prefer conflict to actual conversation .. .. all i have seen is that you bait and you goad all who will not acquiesce to your self-proclaimed  superior knowledge ..  .. “bad form, chap??? ..   

therefore .. i am respectfully withdrawing from further discourse with you ..
wado equa ..
tachia

[Moma_porcupine]

Marlon
The country of Tibet has been brutally occupied by China and the traditions of the Tibetian people have been brutally repressed . If someone born in Tibet but living in China declared they were the real Dali Lama , and they tried to say the other one was an imposter , and people who were knowledgeable Tibetian Buddists said they thought this person was confused , it would not be appropriate for a Chinese person to argue that point , or to insist the Buddist community in Tibet produce indesputable proof of this . It is for the Tibetians to say who the real Dali Lama is .

Not the Chinese .

Period .

[frederica]

I will call you John, as Marlon is inappropiate. You said Ms. Dupree came to you. She knows who she has to go to establish her claim. Otherwise this is all games. Enough said. I'm through with it. frederica

[Marlon]

Hi Fredereke, yes please call me tomorrow.

Hi Moma,

Yes that's is correct and I also believe this is a private matter.  But when I was accused of "propagating genocide" for deliberately supporting a fraud (s) you left me no other option than to explain to you my reasoning and logic for doing so. 
 
I will say one last thing. This is not a threat of any kind, just what I see If this continues and you do not settle this, meaning the two parties concerned, this is what you will be stepping into, this abyss. Then guess who will be rejoicing.  These vultures below.

US TELEVISION NETWORKS
MEDIA SYNDICATES
COMPREHENSIVE U.S. MEDIA REPORTERS (TV/NEWSPAPERS)
UNITED STATES NEWSPAPERS
NEW YORK MEDIA (TV - RADIO - NEWSPAPERS NYC & State)
UNIVERSITY JOURNALISM DEPARTMENTS
SALON.COM
US RADIO NETWORKS
NY RADIO STATIONS
FIREFIGHTERS UNIONS

[Huge amounts of off topic material deleted. This is bordering on spamming.

And I have no idea why you smear a firefighters' union as "vulture" or even what the list had to do with anything.

At this I'm starting to doubt your sanity.

This will be your last warning. We've been more than patient:

QUIT FLOODING US WITH OFF TOPIC MATERIAL.]

[weheli]

It is obvious the agenda all along was about Dupree, I for one am seeing this as continued spam by John/marlon, maybe a "covert interview for the magazine?" It is very obvious this is going nowhere and this issue should and will be taken care of by the Lakota,Dakota ect. I do know they are investigating her claims. PERIOD. Enough said. Eh?
                                                                             Weheli