McCarthyism/Extremism/Who Should Intervene

[nahualqo]

If you are going to be active in this area, I suggest that you use the Indian Telegraph and start connecting to people. Here is a website that has a large list of Native American sites! http://www.nativeculturelinks.com/organizations.html  In our culture we ask someone, who knows some else who knows. It works! It sounds to me like you have a real problem in Europe. Any Native American Elder is willing to give you his tribe, clan or society proudly. If any person in question cannot relate to you the lineage of their knowledge from where it derives then it is suspect. There are some secret societies but they are well known secret societies. Anyone's teachings can't be way different or come from a different culture. A plains culture for instance has their own methods that are similar from tribe to tribe with different languages but similar content or styles. The full war bonnet for instance is a plains tradition so someone from an Eastern Woodland culture that wears a war bonnet does not have fidelity to their own culture or doesn't know it. If you really want to you can find plenty of information about people, if they are on tribal roles for instance, all recognized tribes have them. If you don't do the due diligence then you risk mischaracterizing someone and disgracing them. It sounds to me that you are dealing with mostly outright frauds in Europe and if you are continuing to get a certain name as their teacher then you know where the source is. It could be possible that those that get involved are only complicit by wishful thinkiing. Real Native American spiritual knowledge is very hard to come by even for Native Americans who wish to follow their own traditions!

[Ingeborg]

nahualqo, you wrote in another thread:

I was unaware the problem had become so prevelant!

But, as Debbie said, you criticize us for this site, and even call us hard-headed. So here's some more info for you:

When you google for the term sweatlodge in German language, google comes up with 69,900 sites.
When you google 'sweatlodge + date', again in German language, google presents 18,300 hits.

When you google the English term 'sweatlodge', it's 64,100 results, and 15,000 for 'sweatlodge + date'.

Google results for vision quest in German language: 65,000 hits
Google results for 'vision quest' + date: 20,000 hits.

Googling these terms in English language: 771,000 hits for vision quest, 180,000 for vision quest + date.

[nahualqo]

I never said you were hard headed. I believe you are hard hearted. I support this site. I also believe that there is a right way and a wrong way that can disgrace and hurt Native American people before you know all of the facts or before you communicate with their elders. There are people of honor and respect in every Native American tribe who will support your search for the truth. I ask that you make sure they are in the loop and I gave you a web site with many Native American resources. There are Indian Centers in cities all over America that support their Native American populations. Make use of their help. I can't believe that there are 69,000 Native Americans on tribal roles living in Germany! I know there are some because I have met them all over Europe. I haven't been in Europe for 20 years and there were few Native American happenings there. There was an United Nations council for Natives of the Western Hemisphere when I was in Switzerland.

I just did a google of sweat lodge germany and I got a lot of hits but some were like this one http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/index_other_sites.html, here is another one http://www.rachel.org/BULLETIN/bulletin.cfm?Issue_ID=2120.

I also found this one where they were having a sweat lodge for tourists. http://www.worldviewz.net/bavaria_artie_about.html. It advertises that Native Americans are leading the sweat cerimonies and fire cerimonies. Are they getting paid for this? Are they selling sweat lodges? Are they using their own tribal cerimonies or are they giving Disney land cerimonies? Are they being respectful of their traditions. This advertisement does not go into those details. Why would anyone go to Germany for a traditional Native American spiritual sweat lodge if it is spiritual? I don't get it, why would someone seek to go to Germany in order to experience Native American spirituality? It doesn't sound very proper. But at the same time they could just be employees of a Disney land fantasy. The whole thing could just be a feel good fantasy! I can't imagine a tourist going through a real sweat, it's not easy. Are they just having a sauna?

[Moma_porcupine]

There are reasons why exploiters of Native traditions are being posted here ( as has already been explained ) If someone has a website advertising and charging for ceremonies , it isn't a grey area that needs to be researched ,  or gossip , ( which can be incorrect ) Why should we worry about unfairly disgracing someone when we know traditional Elders strongly object to what they are publicly advertising on the internet ? People selling ceremonies have already disgraced themselves . It would be nice if exploiters would notice that they are disgracing themselves , and stop .

If anyone reading this thread isn't sure if people here are acting in support of recognized tribal Elders , the many articles in link posted below might help clarify the situation .

http://web.archive.org/web/20051215184610/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/index.htm

People speaking out against exploitation of traditional ceremonies and fraud . are not "self appointed", though apparently some of our critics are. 

[nahualqo]

We act the way we do because we are not because of what another does. If you want respect then  behave beyond reproach. the criticism I bring up is about style your bringing up others under the light of your scrutiny with a far brighter blazing light. You should always be concerned about disgracing someone unfairly. That is why elders discipline others. They have a wiser manner about them.

[Al's note: Edited out yet more rudeness and personal attacks. What will it take for you to start acting like an adult?]

There are reasons why exploiters of Native traditions are being posted here ( as has already been explained ) If someone has a website advertising and charging for ceremonies , it isn't a grey area that needs to be researched ,  or gossip , ( which can be incorrect ) Why should we worry about unfairly disgracing someone when we know traditional Elders strongly object to what they are publicly advertising on the internet ? People selling ceremonies have already disgraced themselves . It would be nice if exploiters would notice that they are disgracing themselves , and stop .

If anyone reading this thread isn't sure if people here are acting in support of recognized tribal Elders , the many articles in link posted below might help clarify the situation .

http://web.archive.org/web/20051215184610/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/index.htm

People speaking out against exploitation of traditional ceremonies and fraud . are not "self appointed", though apparently some of our critics are. 

[Freija]

If you are going to be active in this area, I suggest that you use the Indian Telegraph and start connecting to people.

The full war bonnet for instance is a plains tradition so someone from an Eastern Woodland culture that wears a war bonnet does not have fidelity to their own culture or doesn't know it. If you really want to you can find plenty of information about people, if they are on tribal roles for instance, all recognized tribes have them. 

Real Native American spiritual knowledge is very hard to come by even for Native Americans who wish to follow their own traditions!

Thank you for your reply, Nahualqo. Although most of my questions didn´t get replied.

I am not "going to be active in this area...", I have been active for seven years. But I am still listening and learning. And you seemed to have all the answers. I am fully aware of the things you informed me about. You know, even "nons" might actually know something about Native cultures, like the fact that the Plains cultures use full war bonnet and other cultures don´t.... Or that Native spiritual knowledge is hard to come by. The nice thing with this board is that nons have always been welcomed and the same rule goes for nons and Ndn:s alike: as long as you´re respectful it is perfectly OK to ask questions and share your point of views.

So, anyway, I take it you want us over here in Europe to phone elders in USA every time we see a pay-to-pray ceremony? That, in itself, would mean most people over here who are against the abuse would just not bother. Many of them are not even comfortabe with speaking English. So if we cannot contact elders each time, I take it your basic advice is to just ignore the abuse? Does that also mean that we should stay away from informing other Europeans or even - in some cases - warning them?

[nahualqo]

I am known as a plain speaking person. For all of the misphrasing of my meanings on this board leads me to believe that you are also disrespectful to others. Please show me where I have condoned the sellng of cerimonies, I haven't and yet you paraphrase my meanings to infer something that is not there. Should I think that you are dishonest? If you misparaphrase my simple words then indeed you are unreliable and I don't trust your intent. If you don't choose to get in touch with elders then I know that you have another agenda and I will spread the word to your deceit and hidden agendas.

Native people selling cerimonies is an issue for Native Elders to address. If they authorize you to act in their behalf on a case by case basis then I will believe you are in it for the good. If you don't choose or desire to include the elders of tribes of Native Americans that are suspect of selling cerimonies then I don't believe you have any authority whatsover to address Native Americans selling cerimonies. The responsibility falls on you to behave in accordance tribal elders specific issues and permissions. The only way you can address selling of cerimonies is on a case by case basis anyways. How else are you going to make your accusations, blame everybody?

[Freija]

If you don't choose to get in touch with elders then I know that you have another agenda and I will spread the word to your deceit and hidden agendas.

WOW, is that a threat?     I had the honour of spending time with lovely Lakota traditionalists. They tought me that women are sacred. You do not threaten women. They also said that it is OK to give advice in a respectful way, then pull back because spirit will take care of it. So I do not go round and threaten people. I educate Europeans in an attempt to reduce the ongoing exploitation which quite often includes rapes, molestation, assults. I was trying to ask relevant questions. Obviously, we cannot phone elders each and every time we do something over here.

I am not here to argue about it, just wanted to ask some relevant questions. I wanted to know if you think there is an alternative for us? Or if we should just "close down"? But never mind. With the risk of having my very hidden agenda exposed (where is it??? It must be extremely hidden) I will carry on educating Europeans.

[educatedindian]

Sheesh, will you please bother to do some reading before doing yet more ridiculous blanket accusations? You obviously haven't followed this issue at all.

One resolution by elders after another has asked for help from EVERYONE, including nonNatives, in ending frauds and ceremony selling. The first resolution was way back in the late 70s.

I've had about enough of your rudeness. You've been warned by private email and in public, and yet you can't even show basic common courtesy. You're obnoxious and talk down to people, yet you claimed in your first emails to me to be the keeper of a spiritual tradition. That can't be true, because you simply don't have the maturity or humility. Good bye.

[Moma_porcupine]

Of course , people who critize people who expose frauds and exploiters usually have "personal" reasons
that are interesting . People who haven't read all the threads in this forum , might want to check out who nahualqo is , through the link below . You will see why he is so strenuously objecting to what we do here .

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1097.0

Nahualqo seems to be in the habit of getting attention , by presenting himself on line , as a person carrying traditional Spiritual knowledge , who is looking for worthy students . It turns out he claims to be a Spiritual leader of a secret traditional Toltec lineage .

When a poster in the sustained reaction forum asked nahualqo what his tribe was , and who his elders were , all they got was evasion and verbal abuse and basicly they were told it was none of their buisness because they aren't an Indian .

On the other hand,  nahualqo dosn't seem to have any problem basking in the non native attention he gets by claiming to be a Toltec nagual - just- he doesn't think it is any non natives business to verify if he really deserves this attention or not .

Now he is telling Weheli he can't give any information about the Toltec elders because the FBI might assasinate them .

Re: Respect is earned mutually, listening to the concerns of others is wisdom
Reply #11
nahualqo

"Our tradition has been attacked by the Federal Government three times. Originally we were situatated near New Orleans. The last big military move by the Federal Government pushed us north  from New Orleans to Baton Rouge, Lafayette and Lake Charles. The last leader of our tradition and my teacher was assassinated in 1987 after the FBI failed to convict him on trumped up Federal Charges. I would have no know and trust you very well before I would entrust you with my responsibilities  towards the elders in our tradition. "

So apparently if we accept nahualqo's insistance that we find tribal elders before confronting frauds , he will be safe from any confrontations .

Seems all of nahualqo's eloquent "moral" concerns were nothing more than a self serving stratagy to make it more difficult for us to discredit frauds  . 

YUCK

[debbieredbear]

Hmmm. If the FBI is after him, they could it be for fraud?? Oh, wait, did he mean FBI as in Full Blood Indians?? (Saw it on a T-shirt. )

[frederica]

If the FBI is after them why are they advertised on the Internet. frederica

[weheli]

Frederica,
You sure have that right, This persons name is so easy to track down so it appears that all this drama about the FBI is just that. This elder he spoke of, in one of the many links on this forum, crossed over of natural causes and thats the truth of it.
I believe he is using this forum as a platform for his own personal aganda and is contradicting much of the time. With all these different threads he is posting on reminds me of the Cherokee story of the Rabbits and the coyote.
As far as I am concerned I have nothing further to speak to this person. We Cherokee do more than turn our backs but for this Nahualgo he is not even worth that energy.
                                                           Weheli

[frederica]

I agree, I think the contridictions in all his treads are interesting.  Coyote is always a trickster, but he can be pretty evil also. Makes you wonder. frederica

[nahualqo]

If you wish to see evil, then look to your own selves. You have at least 3 real Native American spiritual people in your frauds section. You discuss Nahualism as fraud, without discussing Nahualism itself. If you do have knowledge of Nahualism then you will know the answer to the question I posed. What methodology did the Mexica use to dominate the Snake tradition. Instead of answering that question which most Nahual Traditionalists would know. You pass it up . you stand as judge and juror of other Native Americans. Your list of OK Native Americans is a thin list of books and few writings. You misjudge Nahualism without knowing a seminal event in our long historical presence in North America, Mexico and Central America. By the way, you won't find the Mexica methodology in any text book. When I describe it to you then you will understand certain well known Mexican iconographies. So either answer the question I posed or stop your posing as if you have a clue about Nahualism.