but first, lemme ask, would it be your contention that it's fair to place people in the 'frauds' section here solely on the basis that their behaviour is annoying and does not match up to what you require in an Indian spiritual leader?
~ in which case, it doesn't much matter whether the person has actually done anything wrong or deceptive?
As Barnaby already pointed out, it is not just a matter of someone's behaviour tending to be obnoxious (which you seem to have weakened to a mere 'annoying' meanwhile). There are certain values for spiritual leaders in ndn cultures, and N blatantly fails to meet them. It is therefore more than highly improbable he would have been chosen by an elder for the sort of learning he claims.
If you are not prepared to accept that these cultural values do exist, and are different from those in Euro society, then asking the same question several times won't change the situation that N has managed to expose himself sufficiently to rate him 'fraud'.
I take it the following is a quote from one of your posts in the SR forum:
b....
04/05 9:06 am
(3) according to their research in wikipedia, there's something wrong with his claim that he is "Siksika, (Blackfoot)"
Please, do not assume that the ndns at NAFPS have to look up wikipedia to know about their relatives. This is a bit of stereotyping, don't you think so? Like, an ndn does not quote wikipedia as a source for further reading for white readers, but needs basic info in the first place.
But then again, probably you really don't, given some of the remarks made in SR about NAFPS and its members:
kaioatey01
Medicine Man
Posts: 2608
(4/7/07 12:59 am)
Reply
Re: Dishonesty
(...)
I am sure your prudish NAFPS friends will be impressed to find you misappropriated Native American, then Indian and then Amazoniam spirituality.
(...)
I betcha those European twinkies wouldn't have the guts to face others in a forum where they can't edit out the criticisms. imagine, wu, if I went and started a witchhunting BB in which I would go after fraudulent imams. Or Druids. Or sorkos from Niger. But in NAFPS you have Brits, germans and Swedes judging whether Wallace Black Elk was a real Lakota medicine man or not?
heh. These guys have zero credibility.
kaioatey01
(4/6/07 3:45 pm)
Reply Dishonesty
(...)
Dishonesty? u'er prevaricating: I said they were Europeans. Twinkies who have taken upon themselves to lecture the worlld who is a genuine NA and who is not. If you don't see the bizareness here, its because these guys are just like you.
Quote:
They do not slither into sweatlodges etc.
how do you know?
you made a huge deal about Wallace Black Elk supposedly charging $50 per lodge. I toold you this is because whiteys like you, Barnaby and Ingeborg feel ENTITLED to have NAs work for free for days in order to have a sweat lodge experience. Basically, Barnaby has found another way of exploiting NAs - he is a fraud in his own way.
Quote:
must fabricate a negative fictional picture to try to discredit them
wu, there is NO NEED to fabricate anything. these guys are pretending to be more Indian than the Indian themselves. heh... Some NAPFS groupie lecturing Ocelotl, who is a genuine Blackfoot, about Blackfeet (with info gained from wiki).
(...)
hahaha... no you don't. you showed in your posts that you have no idea. you simply have no clue. you are just another Barnaby.
(...)
Don't prevaricate. You expect to be reciprocated for the effort you put into your bodywork. A lodge leader puts much more effort into this (days' worth) yet YOU expect HIM to do it for free. You are a rascal, just another exploiter is what you are. Like your precious Ingeborg and Barnaby, and that 'educatedindian' guy from Sweden. {emphasis mine, I.}
What you all have in common is the need, compulsion, to tear other people down. Other people, like those youngsters in Amazon, who are sincerely trying to understand spirit and themselves. You and the NAFPS people are parasites feeding of other people's passion for life.
You are contemptible!
kaioatey01
Re: re:NAFPS
(...)
ayahuasca would chew you up and spit you out and you'd never want to go near her again.
no, those young people were salt of the earth. sincere seekers, and resepctful. these NAFPS twinkie Injuns are too fanatical, too - undeveloped, to see the real thing.
i mean... what can u expect from Dummkopfs running with the wolves.
i've probably spent 20 min there...and there were a few people i liked. Blue Wolf was one, if memory serves, and there was an 61yr old gramma. it was the 'educatedindian' Admins (Twinkie Injuns) and non-indians (Injun Twinkies) that got my goat.
kaioatey01
Re: sincere and resepctful seekers,
(...)
Many Injuns, for example, be they Navajo or Lakota, certainly prefer to spend it on alcohol, drugs and promiscuity. Forget child support, or such Western a concept as work.
And then these NAFPS pseudo-Injuns have the gall to complain when young people try to take their own lives, and spiritual quests, seriously? Instead of extending a helping hand (provided they know better), they try to kick others down. Pshaw!
kaioatey01
(4/5/07 1:12 am)
NAFPS
Just had a peek at the NAFPS site through the link kindly provided by ra6as.
My word, what a bunch of angry paranoiacs and self-congratulatory holier-than-thous.
Nothing sadder than an Indian blaming the white man for his alcoholism, promiscuity and inability to get a proper education. And the NAFPS 'Indians' seem to be led by a Brit guy and a German woman.
heh
seriously, if this is not pathetic, i don't know what is.
kaioatey01
(4/5/07 10:25 am)
Re: re: NAFPS
(...)
the Administrator of the site is a Brit, who 'runs with the wolves'. And they are others, Ingeborgs, Fredericas... whose holier than thou sycophancy is sickening.
and the second administrator is a guy who calls himself 'educatedindian'. Probably finished high school, learnt to use Internet, maybe even has a job. Now this guy has no problem living in the white man's world, using white man's culture etc... but when sincere young people try to learn about indigenous life, suddenly he becomes holier than thou
i don';t care what they say about Ocelotl. They've pegged him down pretty well. What got my goat was how they treated a couple of sincere young people who went to Peru and tried to incorporate what they've learnt into a new way of life. A bit idealistic, but beautiful. These NAFPS twerps just couldn't see that these people were MORE of the earth than they themselves.
In other words, when one or two drops of native blood becomes your only criteria, you are pretty dead already.
kaioatey01
(4/5/07 10:28 am)
Re: NAFPS
(...)
I was trying to have a look at the 'native blood' hypocrisy, where folks who are nobodys try to be somebodys simply because they (may) have a drop of Injun blood.
but when you look at their resentment and paranoia... makes you wonder.
they are basically Injun twinkies.
kaioatey01
(4/5/07 1:04 am)
Reply hmmm
(...)
This NAFPS site looks kind of loony and pathetic, paranoia everywhere. Some Indians get drunk on alcohol, others on Indianesness, whatever that is.
kaioatey01
(4/5/07 10:39 am)
Re: NAFPS
(...)
hahaha... yeah... you mean the NAFPS Swedes and germans, and the Brit administrator. well, ok, maybe they do have someone who is a 1/32 micmac. And there is the 'educatedindian' guy.
a bunch of 'running with the wolves' wannabes.
(...)
kaioatey01
(4/5/07 6:04 pm)
Re: Truthfullness and NAFPS
(...)
these guys don't like anybody.
they criticize Ed McGaa, Leonard Crow Dog, Wallace Black Elk, Bobby Lake (whose sin is apparently that they talk to white people) and are congenitally unable to distinguish between decent folks like Jamie Sams and outright fraudsters and conmen like Swift Deer.
in other words, while well-intentioned, NAFPS is not run by Indians themselves but by assorted Swedes, Germans and Brits who parade in their fake headdresses while pretending to speak for the NAs. Assorted Barnabies and Ingeborgs, heh. Real full bloods at NAFPS are mainly for decoration. They
know no one can steal your family, your community away from you.
It is the greedy who get upset by greed in others.
It is the spiritually empty ones who are upset by genuine idealistic seekers.
(...)
kaioatey01
(4/5/07 9:21 pm)
Re: not much backbone.
Quote:
Criticising Indians for alcoholism and a lack of character as a way to try to discredit NAFPS.
well, i was suggesting these guys have much larger problems than plastic shamans. not that they would acknowledge these problems on their board. But these criticisms were before i realized NAFPS is just a bunch of Brits, Swedes, Germans and Italians playing at running with the wolves.
NAFPS is not about helping Indians- it is about another way for wasichus to assuage their guilt and play at being holier than thou. Just look at that barnaby McEwen (is that a Lakota name, or what?) personality.
Quote:
If you have a criticism of NAFPS why are you too much of a coward to do so over at their site?
what's the point? why talk to twinkies with a pet peeve? they don;t care to step out of their little holy cocoons. they're not interested in real stuff, like we are here.i haven't seen a single interesting post there...
... certainly not posts in which a NAFPS honcho shows generosity of spirit or an open heart. The way they treated those young people sez it all. Sanctimonious European twinkies!
(...)
kaioatey01
(4/6/07 12:23 am)
Re: Religion or culture.
Quote:
I think you could consider going over to NAFPS and posting your opinions about that there.
wuwei, those people are not Indians. They are a bunch of conceited Europeans who have gotten into their heads that the purity of the ceremony is much more important than fighting alcoholism, drug abuse and crime on the rez. or providing jobs.
Do you think Barnaby invested any of his money into the rez? Ha! Think again.
It's not like the Indians are frozen in time. Many have been in the Army. Others (not enough) went to college. Yuroks, Pomo and Tewas are doing Lakota ceremonies; Lakotas are doing the intertribal NAC thing and powwows with everyone else. If you knew anything about NAs you'd know things have never
been pure. they've always been fluid. The whole point is that the medicine man learns from the spirits. If they tell him to wear skirts or to do everything backwards, he's gonna do it.
So GD is right on the money.
It is amazing what an amount of racism one person can come up with, and this speaks for itself. BTW, Al, do take due note that Monsieur le medicine man already got you 'exposed' for a Swede ....
Anyways, I won't engage in dispute with so knowing a person who calls Jamie Samms 'genuine' and apparently is able to see who's ndn and who's not just by looking at the nicks people use. And who obviously is so well informed as to not know the difference between ceremonies and powwows. But as Monsieur said in another posting: he is not Indian, but he knows a few.... Comment: raspberry {and see whether the system lets that pass or detects an indecency}
But there are more stereotyping comments to be found:
Aesop
SR Veteran
Posts: 655
(4/6/07 2:03 am)
Reply
Re: The Hacker Aesop ~ another Sil episode.
Thanks Booth,
I didn't have Nal in mind, but an "elder".
I'm with Mr K on that Twinkie site.
As far as I can tell, they just condemned Nal coz he spelled Adolf wrong. And he has some wrong-headed ideas. Much like themselves.
Yet he authenticated himself (but not his "tradition") to their admin. Who doesn't have gonads to put that one to bed with a simple confirmation. Choosing instead to publish the IP location of one of the site contributers
as a way of debunking him…
Something like "you're Australian so you must be wrong". Critical thinking apparently not being their forte.
custodian
SR Veteran
Posts: 1562
(4/6/07 7:38 am)
Reply
Re: New Age Toltec games.
Quote:
Of course it is true that he tried to buffalo the people at NAFPS at first. And it is also true that it didn't take them long to see the chinks in his personality.
I supect that if anyone cares to ask and has the time to pressure the troll wu into answering, it will be confirmed that wu has been actively persecuting Nagualgo and others under one or more of his other alias(s) at the NAFPS website, and that what we are seeing here is just another false consensual agreement between wu's SR alias and wu's NAFPS alias.
...another sock-puppet type agreement where wu is just quoting his own material.
There is no reasonable alternative yet offered as to why wu is so well informed about how Nagualgo first introduced himself at the NAFPS website and the intimate details of how the situation degraded from there. Obviously wu was there, and a participant.
Yeah, what a great piece of white superiority - of course the 'Injuns' (cf above) here don't have the intelligence to research N, and also us Brits, Swedes, and Germans need a bit of help on the way (we probably don't speak the language well enough, especially the Brits..) - so it MUST have been the poster wu wei wu to jump into the breach and do a bit of prompting.
But one of the best gems is from Mr Blackbeard, not an infrequent poster at SR plus the admin of the Twilight Zone, and apparently our latest addition here at NAFPS. He seems to be into necrophilia, excuse the pun:
Blackbeardd
Trustee
Posts: 289
(4/6/07 7:06 pm)
Reply Nagualqo
Nagualqo is considered a fraud by the Church of the Politically Correct.
Nagualqo is considered a fraud, because no one knows about his 'secret' Toltec Tradition (maybe that's why it's called secret..)
They say it's not really a secret tradition, for he posted lots of it on the internet. If my memory serves me right, Nahualqo said he was only allowed to tell about certain things, and he posts about what's allowed quite a lot. But, as I've noticed, he leaves out a lot too.
The Elders think not much of Nahualqo: I'd say: f*ck the Elders, they fossilized long time ago. Who needs their outdated views? Only the Politically Correct NewAge followers of an OldAge Tradition.
I have quoted this lengthy to give proof that there is an attitude of both open and covert racism to be found at SR, and the posts quoted include about every racist stereotype there is and was.
Given this way of thinking, ra6as, just what do you expect NAFPS to tell you about N in the way of the various reasons why he has been rated a fraud? Taking into consideration that we have been written off as 'twinkie Injuns' and 'Injun twinkies' who apparently don't know body orifices from holes in the ground in just about every respect - would you and the others at SR be prepared to accept these reasons? I have severe doubts. The atmosphere at SR apparently is marked by presenting the full bandwidth of racist stereotypes to be able to dismiss everything we say, and by a wholehearted 'f*ck the elders' which is not exactly suited to grant a cordial exchange of points of view.
For one, you and others at SR are apparently not able to accept that it is rated a lie when N makes a contact by private mail claiming that all he writes
in that mail is secret and may endanger his life and the lives of others when published, and then all he has written has been published in various forums by N himself, years prior to that contact. Just as a hint: if N grew up in Siksika traditions as he put forward when he joined NAFPS, shouldn't he be somewhat more reluctant about telling lies and about misrepresenting himself?
