'Nahualqo'

[debbieredbear]

 Barbanegra,

How nice. A non-Indian telling us that we have  outdated ideas and beliefs. Just ducky. Here's a thought for you: Native people who live by those outdated ideas do better in life. It's when we embrace the invaders visions/beliefs/ that we get messed up.

And here's another thought: Instead of focusing on the 4 or 5 non-Indian members you are targeting, read what the native people have said.

Oh, and you were on the members list as Blackbeardd. Don't know why you couldn't post under that.

One question I do have for you: Why is it that when (mosttly) white new agers embrace a "guru" they always go after thje one who is self important, arrogant and a braggart? Those of us who are Native and living in our communities etc, know that the guy bragging his arrogant head off generally knows nothing. It's the humble, quiet person, the one who doesn't call attention to himself/herself, that has the power.

[Barbanegra]

How nice. A non-Indian telling us that we have  outdated ideas and beliefs.

I opted it as a possiblity, not as a certainty..

Oh, and you were on the members list as Blackbeardd. Don't know why you couldn't post under that.

I used a Yahoo! email address to register, and never received that email with the validation link. So I tried again, with another name and another email address (Gmail). I read here that there have been problems before with registrations.

One question I do have for you: Why is it that when (mosttly) white new agers embrace a "guru" they always go after thje one who is self important, arrogant and a braggart? Those of us who are Native and living in our communities etc, know that the guy bragging his arrogant head off generally knows nothing. It's the humble, quiet person, the one who doesn't call attention to himself/herself, that has the power.

Good question. Maybe because the alternative would be joining a NA tribe, and they are too lazy or too shy for that? Dunno, really...

Maybe they have to be 'intimidated' first to be willing to listen?

But I am not that convinced only the quiet and humble persons have the power. It's just a psychological thing: some like braggarts, some hate them.
 

[Moma_porcupine]

Ingeborg

Please, do not assume that the ndns at NAFPS have to look up wikipedia to know about their relatives. This is a bit of stereotyping, don't you think so? Like, an ndn does not quote wikipedia as a source for further reading for white readers, but needs basic info in the first place.

As it was me that posted the references to the Wikipedia and other articles explaining the Piegan and Siksika are actually different tribes , I should probaly make it clear I am not personally related to the Blackfeet , though I recall hearing the Blood and Piegan spoken of as if they were distinct tribes and members of the Blackfoot confederacy . The most authoritive source I have, is the information I posted . If someone knows better information they are welcome to post it  , as i am not an authority on this .   

Are people thinking the Piegan Blackfeet aren't really Piegan , or that someone who was a knowledgeable involved member of the Piegan Blackfeet tribe would think the Piegan all went to Canada ? If someone didn't know even basic information about the tribe they claimed to be a member of , why would anyone give that person any credit for being knowledgeable about Native traditions ? Doesn't make sense to me .   

And there is no evidence i am aware of , that any Jaguar lineage exists outside of Nuhualqos imagination .

If I claim to be carrying divine wisdom from the ancient atlantean cherochuckles tribe ,there is no way anyone can disprove it ,and I could accuse anyone who tried , of being a racist genocidal pig. It would be  within the relms of possiblity that I really was who i was claiming to be .

But WHY would anyone believe such a claim when there is absolutely no evidence to support it ? And WHY would anyone think believing in something that there was no evidence to support , was a safe belief system ? Why would anyone think believing something that wasn't true , that was the product of a delusional or psychopathic mind , would work out well for them ? People who lie about who they are OR who don't understand why people need to be able to verify that they have the traditional background and authorization they claim  ,would seem to me to be too self engrossed to be any kind of Spiritual guide . I have never known a verbally abusive or dishonest Elder. What I am saying isn't so much " Native wisdom " about "Native traditions" . It's just common sense .     

ra6as

So are you saying that he probably lied when he said "I am Siksika, (Blackfoot.)"?

There is no proof either way , but why should anyone believe this ? And why would someone who was mentally healthy make grandious public claims they refused to verify, and be insulted when people with common sense thought those claims might not be true?     

Should anyone who wants be able to say they are an Indian and claim to have some traditional knowledge they want people to respect without giving any way of verifying this ? Should anyone who wants be able to claim to be a doctor , or psycholgist or minister or governer but not have to authenticate these claims? Any society that was run on these principals with no respect for the internal organization and respect for the authority to maintain this internal organization would quickly degenerate into chaos . That is what nahualqo is advocting .  Doesn't sound like someone " working for the good of his people " to me.

Sounds like someone working to open the way for exploiters .

Barbanegra

Just a thought: has any of you thought about the possibility that these socalled elders are stuck in an outdated view on life? And that there are other native Americans , maybe those like Nahualqo , who have moved on despite the recommendations of the socalled elders?

No i don't think the wisdom of traditional Elders is outdated , and if YOU think it is, why don't you enjoy your modren outlook and leave native traditions alone? It's so completely hypocritical to turn to native people and say " feed us", we have trashed our own connection with the Sacred , but then you turn around and expect to do the very same thing to native traditions that trashed your own . Thats sick .
Really Really Sick .

[Barbanegra]

Where did I say the view of the elders is outdated? I said:

has any of you thought about the possibility that...

And there is no evidence i am aware of , that any Jaguar lineage exists outside of Nuhualqos imagination .

True, but he said it's a secret lineage, hence it is to be expected no one knows about it outside that lineage, or else it wouldn't be much of a secret lineage, now would it?


EDIT:

My english apparently isn't good enough (I am Dutch), for I read the next sentence about ten times now, and i still don't understand what you are saying Moma:

It's so completely hypocritical to turn to native people and say " feed us", we have trashed our own connection with the Sacred , but then you turn around and expect to do the very same thing to native traditions that trashed your own.

[debbieredbear]

Barbanegra,

A person who was SINCERE wouldn't have to join a tribe to learn things. They probably are too lazy to want to learn anything correctly. That actually would take time and effort. I have found that most new age types want everything right this instant. So when some bragging lying scum ball comes along and says "I have all the answers, give me money and I will teach you" they jump at it. But when they find out it's all fake, instead of getting angry at first themselves for being stupid and second at the exploiter who took them for a merry dance to fantasy island, they get angry with Indians.

AS for your backing off on saying our ways are outdated, quit being coy. You worded it in such a way that most people reading it would see what moma and I saw.

As for your remark about being intimidated into it. Maybe they do believe that. Creator knows that the white scumbag, Lynn Andrewes has gotten very wealthy writing about just such a scenario. Except that what she  writes is as phoney as it gets. Heck, her ex-lover, David Carson, even admitted that he co-wrote her first 3 o 4 books and the characters were based on his two Choctaw aunts. He was about to expose more of her doings when she paid him a handsome sum of money to shut up.

[Barbanegra]

OK, I hope I can make myself clear enough without making a wrong impression.

There are maybe 2 reasons why someone asks money from people who want to be taught:

-1- They want to get rich quick and easy;
-2- They assume that they should ask for money because they think that those willing to pay are more sincere in their quest than those who refuse to pay a dime.

But when they find out it's all fake, instead of getting angry at first themselves for being stupid and second at the exploiter who took them for a merry dance to fantasy island, they get angry with Indians.

If you have ever visited the Sustained Reaction site, you'd know that's not true: as far as I remember no one there who felt cheated by Carlos Castaneda ever got angry with Indians. And on SR they talk about others being frauds, and still they don't jump on Indians out of some kind of revenge.

[Moma_porcupine]

What i'm saying is  ;
It's completely hypocritical to turn to native people and say , "we need your traditions to help us , we have ruined our own connection with the Sacred " , but then you turn around , and expect to have the right to do the very same thing , to native traditions , that diminished the Sacredness of your own . 

Information about a secret lineage would not be posted on the internet  . I am sure people who want to believe this, will imagine some way it might be true .

Considering all the frauds out there , and the very real damage they do to peoples lives  ( read the thread " whats the harm ?"to get a glimpes of this ) it would seem if Nahualqo had any concern for  peoples safety ,  he would not be offended when people felt a need to verify that he is of the lineage he claims . Obviously other peoples safety is not his concern .

It isn't reasonable to position oneself, as nahualqo has , to recieve the attention of non native people and then turn around and insist you expect non native people to mind their own business . You can't have it both ways .

All the Native Elders i have known are practical , moral and reasonable people . It is just non natiive thrill seekers that put all that woo woo stuff ahead of basic common sense and moral values . Nahualqo does not act like a reasonable or moral person . 

Maybe i'm wrong . I'm not an authority on anything . I support the Elders and traditions that i love , and that have supported me . Use your common sense .

I have never heard of any Native Spiritual tradition that involves intimidation or domination . As far as i know domination as a way to Spiritual harmony and strength is a totally non native behavior / belief system .  I think that is one of the reasons most Native people find Lynn Andrews and Carlos Casteneda so offensive . If there was anything "real " in those books , it is about "bad medicine' . There is a book called "the grass dancer" by Susan Power . It is a good story by a Lakota woman and it shows what happens when ' medicine " gets used by people who don't respect the traditional moral guidelines that keep people from getting hurt . You folks might enjoy that book . Lots of wooo wooo stuff there ...

As I say  , I am not an authority and if anyone has better information than this ,or feels what I am saying is incorrect I hope they will correct me .

( edited to add ; the book "The Grass Dancer " is a work of fiction , but I think it is generally a more accurate reflection of Native beliefs about " bad medicine" than Lynn Andrews and Carlos Casteneda's works of fiction  )

[Barnaby_McEwan]

True, but he said it's a secret lineage, hence it is to be expected no one knows about it outside that lineage, or else it wouldn't be much of a secret lineage, now would it?

I suggest you stop patronising people if you want to be taken seriously.

nahualqo has been advertising his secret tradition on the web since 2003. Around the end of last year, he emailed Al (Educated_Indian) here, saying that lives would be in danger if Al revealed what was in their correspondence, most of which Al has confirmed was already on the web. I don't know when this correspondence took place but by January 11th this year, nahualqo had announced on your forum that Al was not racially pure enough to judge what he was saying:

I did make contact with someone that runs the board. He is of Apache, Irish and other extraction but is not even enrolled in his tribe. He has no tribal authority whatsoever to judge anyone.

.

If people want to believe that someone who writes things like that, endorses Castaneda's fraudulent writings, insults women, and generally behaves like a pompous idiot is a spiritual teacher then that's fine, but they can't complain they weren't warned.

And by the way I've just perfected cold fusion and can let you in on the secrets if you agree to let me and my secret tradition of physics professors spend twenty years teaching you physics. You must never speak of what I teach you or people's very lives will be in danger!

[ra6as]

You and others at SR are apparently not able to accept that it is rated a lie when N makes a contact by private mail claiming that all he writes in that mail is secret and may endanger his life and the lives of others when published, and then all he has written has been published in various forums by N himself, years prior to that contact.

You are saying ~ I think ~ that

(1) Nagualqo wrote an email message to Al, asking Al to keep the details confidential since his (Nagualqo's) life would be endangered if they were revealed;

(2) it turns out that Nagualqo had actually already revealed the details, years previously, on the internet;

(3) therefore Nagualqo is lying in saying that the details should be kept confidential.

But that doesn't make sense.

How would Nagualqo ever know that his life would be endangered, if he *hadn't* already tried revealing the details on the internet and found that his life *was* thereby endangered?

If Nagualqo revealed the details years ago, and found that his life was thereby endangered, then he is telling the truth when he says to Al "Please don't reveal these details, it would endanger my life."

You may think this is sophistry, or splitting hairs.

Well, that's not a problem.

If you can accuse Nagualqo of an honest-to-goodness lie, then by all means go ahead and do it.  But what you've accused him of so far is ridiculous.  Maybe because he *is* ridiculous.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

If Nagualqo revealed the details years ago, and found that his life was thereby endangered, then he is telling the truth when he says to Al "Please don't reveal these details, it would endanger my life."

nahualqo has said he was planning to go public. An alternative and more likely explanation is that nahaualqo, overestimating his own intelligence and underestimating other people's, thought he could dupe Al into giving  some academic respectability to nahaulqo's planned public emergence of his supposedly secret tradition. Little did he suspect that history professors generally know how to use search engines.

[ra6as]

Well, fine.  These are all insinuations, and they might well have solid reasons behind them.

But unless and until you can substantiate them, you surely should not put Nagualqo in the 'frauds' section.

You could well start a new section for the ridiculous and the evasive, and put Nagualqo in that.

Why do I say this?

Well, for one thing, your putting Nagualqo in 'frauds' on the basis of what you've come up with so far, undermines your categorization of all the other people you've put in 'frauds'.

For example, what about the other two Native Americans on whose behalf Nagualqo is complaining here?

As things stand, you have accused Nagualqo of lying.

There could well be some solid lies yet to come out of this thing;  discussion on this very point is ongoing at Sustained Reaction, in case you are interested.

But what one sees so far is that Nagualqo has insulted several of you, and you have put him in 'frauds' because you find his behaviour obnoxious and not matching up to what one would reasonably require in an Indian spiritual leader.

[Falsehoods and personal attacks removed.]

[Barnaby_McEwan]

We've been over this enough times now. If you like, you can go back over everything nahualqo's written here, every response, everything he's written elsewhere, and rehash it. I have better things to do on this sunny day.

[educatedindian]

"would it be your contention that it's fair to place people in the 'frauds' section here solely on the basis that their behaviour is annoying and does not match up to what you require in an Indian spiritual leader?"

Rasas, it's very condescending of you to reduce what we're saying to a caricature, and bordering on racism to for you to assume that you (as a European, judging by your British spelling) know better than NDNs do what should be the qualities of a Native spiritual leader.

Since you're having trouble getting the obvious, let me make it clear yet again.

He explicitly told me his alleged lineage was *secret*. Secret means no one else knows.

He's not just "annoying". (Well, many would disagree with me, including on the SR board.)

He's a bully.

He's a liar, and a pretty obvious one.

He's very disrespectful in the way he treats women. No Native leader would do that, outside of some of the more self aggrandizing Russell Means types who mostly have nonNative followers.

He's sanctimonious, with no humility whatsoever.

Obviously you don't have much contact with NDNs, except for types like him. On the rez or in an urban NDN community, people whould immediately avoid him for his behavior, perhaps even shun him. Any followers of his would be pitied for being so out of touch as to somehow still believe in him.

And most Native spiritual traditions say that a lack of humility or abusive behavior to others would drive away the spirits and power behind them that would make someone a spiritual leader.

Obviously, since SR is made up in large part of survivors of the Cleargreen cult, you are far more familiar with the caricature of Native beliefs by the likes of Castaneda than with actual Native beliefs.

Since many of you are cult survivors, you have my sympathy, and I also know from speaking with many in Cult Studies that many survivors repeat their mistakes, fall for other cult leaders or emulate the patterns of behavior they learned in cults, often without realizing it.

Blackbeardd claims that Castaneda followers don't take out their anger on being abused and lied to on Natives, yet that is clearly exactly what s/he is doing.

And s/he is repeating almost word for word much of the racism that is throughout Castaneda's works and public statements, that NDNs "live in the past" and that whites are superior, racially and mentally "more advanced" than Natives.

It's also interesting that Blackbeardd calls him/herself "us Native American".

Yet his/her IPS shows s/he's posting from the Netherlands. S/he also uses an email with the address CastanedaContinues@gmail.com. While others on SR might be survivors from Cleargreen trying to recover from
cult experience, s/he likely remains a True Believer of the most notorious Nuage exploiter of all.

Both Rasas and N also keep repeating the lie that the "genuine" Natives are somehow being falsely accused.

Both of you continue to refuse to do something as simple as use the Search button for this site (or even use google), where you'd see that virtually all NDNs see "genuine" types like Andrews, Samms, Carson, WBE, and Archie Lame Deer as pretty obvious and notorious frauds.

It's also pretty revealing that N feels the need to resort to racism against mixedbloods. My being mixedblood didn't matter to him before though, when he hoped to use my academic credentials to get legitimacy for his group.

If he consents, I'll gladly post the half a dozen emails where he repeatedly begged me to be a consultant for his group.

You or others at SR may continue to believe in N if you wish. Some of the more racist among seem to like that he fulfills your stereotypes of what you expect NDNs to be.

But don't claim you haven't been warned. He's no spiritual leader. He's actually a cook living in a small town in Texas. His father was an actor, not a spiritual leader among his people. Among most Plains tribes, medicine traditions are passed down in the family.

If you want to believe he could be the sooper-secret leader of that sooper-secret tradition that's been sooper-secret for over 500 years, well, stranger things have been believed. You all believed Castaneda, didn't you?

[Barbanegra]

educatedindian said:

Blackbeardd claims that Castaneda followers don't take out their anger on being abused and lied to on Natives, yet that is clearly exactly what s/he is doing.

And s/he is repeating almost word for word much of the racism that is throughout Castaneda's works and public statements, that NDNs "live in the past".

I say that to other people too, now and then ("live in the past"). It has nothing to do with being racist.

Consider this my last post.

Goodbye.

[Insults removed. I doubt anyone will miss a racist troll and Castaneda wannabe.]