Re: The Role of NonNatives in Stopping Exploiters

[A.R.]

Blue Wolf

An Australian Aboriginal leader Charlie Perkins once said that:  "We know we can not live in the past, but the past lives in us".

And if the "Dreaming" you remember, know and recognize within is not reflected in the "Dreaming" of the white man, but is the "Dreaming" of Native American ..... DNA tests do come in handy, eh !


Barnaby McEwan

By the looks of things the white man has a great difficulty in even recognizing his/her own "Dreaming"  .... let alone having a clue about the "Dreamings" of  Aboriginal peoples, a-n-y Aboriginal peoples !  Therefore I personally do take an offence of a white man becoming "The Native Police" in the matters of Aboriginal genuineness.

Call it a deep and honest gut reaction, it gets to me like a "rocket fuel" !
Used to have the same "rocket fuel gut reaction" to the word "assimilation", a white person would only need to mention the word and "sparks would fly" !!!!

Still.
The road any indigenous soul personally needs to take to realign and reconnect and heal the past in efforts to find one's truths or to move forwards; - may not be as straight and narrow as an "onlooker", or white European might wish to dictate.   

I've seen my Aboriginal "brothers" and "sisters" take contradictory paths dividing the previously cohesive tribal unity .... and some of the paths I personally would not take, but knowing where the person is coming from, and what they have been through making their choices puts me in no position to judge.

There is this huge cry from the white Australians for the Aboriginal people to "assimilate", but when these same "criers" meet an "Elder" who is highly educated, (in white man's terms) who speaks several languages, is well versed in "world philosophies", who dresses up smartly and drives a new 4-wheel drive, well, he is not a real tribal "Elder" now is he; - but a mere "fraud".   
But for some communities to have these kind of new "Elders", who are learned in and can juggle both worlds, they present the means for future survival in the very real sense of the word.

For my parents and grandparents survival meant learning the "white ways" and in silence staying in hiding about our culture and identity.
For me survival means revival of the said cultural identity.

I do have some vague idea, that the situation in Americas is quite different than what is down here, and maybe "employing" white people as the "Native Police" hunting down "frauds" is a good idea and a smart move, which shows you to be far more "healed" and "advanced" than my "fly off the handle" methods.    Heh, come to think of it .....

So never mind what I've been saying here Barnaby McEwans from Totnes, Devon, just keep on doing the good work you are doing chasing down "them frauds", you'll catch one one day, "red handed" if you keep at it, might not be at the direction your finger is pointing at though. So think twice before you start calling a person who claims to be indigenous; - "a fraud" until you know them and until you know what they have been through, and where they are at, on their journey.
 


NAFPS

Thank you for letting me come in and have a say.
"Bye" for now.

A.R.

[AndreasWinsnes]

Hi A.R.

I am a Norwegian white man, an aboriginal of Scandinavia.

Interesting reminder of a majority of white men's tendency to police almost everything, but I don't agree with what you write. Natives in other countries than Europe should not forget that the old religious traditions of Europe have also been suppressed by violence and force for many centuries, not by The White Man, but by Christians. These Christians have also destroyed cultures on other continents, because they had the military means to do it.

This is not a question about race. I am proud of being white, and I love my country. But I am not proud of many of the ways Western culture has developed the last 1000 years. 

I am not an onlooker. I experience that new agers take old North-European beliefs, beliefs I am a part of, and turn them into "shamanism", a product to be sold on the spiritual market. I react to this, and I sympathize with other indigenous people who feel the same way.

Your accusation of policing reminds me a bit about other new agers accusations when they say that members of this forum are "fundamentalists", "intolerant" or "extremists". Such negative labels are sometimes used instead of presenting facts and plain arguments against what is written here. 

There is a difference between judging and "policing", however. If many Native Americans, like the Lakota for instance, judge that their religious ceremonies should not be sold, that new agers should not misuse them, then I have no problem with letting people know when I have encountered individuals who seem to be frauds according to the criteria presented by natives of the continent now occupied and called "America". 

There is this huge cry from the white Australians for the Aboriginal people to "assimilate", but when these same "criers" meet an "Elder" who is highly educated, (in white man's terms) who speaks several languages, is well versed in "world philosophies", who dresses up smartly and drives a new 4-wheel drive, well, he is not a real tribal "Elder" now is he; - but a mere "fraud". 

 

Nobody on this forum will call such an Elder a "fraud".

But I agree with you that one should know a person before calling anyone a fraud, but many times people say things on the internet that reveals that they are frauds or something similar. Mr. FBI for example.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Therefore I personally do take an offence of a white man becoming "The Native Police" in the matters of Aboriginal genuineness.

Please refer to my earlier reply.

So never mind what I've been saying here Barnaby McEwans from Totnes, Devon

It's not difficult to find out where I live, since I posted that information here myself. Why mention it again?

So think twice before you start calling a person who claims to be indigenous; - "a fraud" until you know them and until you know what they have been through, and where they are at, on their journey.

Over the years, tribal governments and intertribal groups of elders have released statements on this subject many times. Dozens of articles have been written by respected native activists and writers. They say things like 'to evaluate a person's claims, call their tribal government', 'ask who their teachers are', 'ask them their home address', and so on. To my knowledge, not a single one says 'find out what they have been through', 'understand their journey', or anything similar. That kind of thing is, however, routinely said by frauds and their dupes. I think I'll take the elders' advice over yours.

[A.R.]

Andreas Winsnes

Ok.   
Barnaby McEwans asked me about Australia.
But by all means let's look at the Scandinavian region. 
 
I think the Vikings are well known for their "glory days", for their murdering and thieving raids in the world.    When the Vikings pushed into Eurasia, the local, I mean the indigenous tribes on the land called them Rus.   To cut the story short, Prince Ruric and other Viking aristocrats established power places on the land that we now call Rus'sia.

Between the "Vikings" in the West and the "Rus" in the East .... have the Native tribes of that land area been treated, are they being treated well ?   
 
I can answer this to you squarely and from a direct personal experience  .... NO !    
Therefore please do not talk about the valour of the white Scandinavians or that of the white Rus towards  Indigenous populations.

So what makes you now "The White Knight" looking after "Indians" .... I wonder.

A.R.

[debbieredbear]

AR,

I am not meaning to speak for Barnaby, however, I do not believe he is thinking of himself as a "white knight" out protecting Indians. To me, he seems more like a man who is tired of the frauds that prey on gullible English people. And no, I am no knight, being an Indian gramma married to an Indian grandpa and living on a reservation.  I am just sick of the freaks and frauds who prey on the gullible. Then instead of being angry at the fraud, they hate all Indians when they realize they have been had.

[educatedindian]

AR,
Note that this topic was split, since you were sidetracking the main topic by trying to make Barnaby and/or nonNatives the issue, and doing so with your very first post.

So I have to wonder if you joined the forum just to go after Barnaby, which would seem like a very petty thing to do.

Pretty ironic. We don't know if you are Native or not. I didn't see you introduce yourself in the Welcome section, and most Native people would immediately do that when they join a forum. Traditional politeness and all.

Barnaby was a great help to me on a speaking tour in Europe (just the British leg of it) when I spoke against exploiters and to raise money for two charities for Native children. I've never seen him presume to speak for Native people. I *have* seen him go out of his way and give of his time and energy selflessly to help out when asked. White knight? No. Friend and activist? Yes.

When I hear someone say that nonNatives should not play any role in rooting out expoiters, I like to ask: Shouldn't whites speak out against racism as much as nonwhites? Should only Jews care about remembering the Holocaust or fighting anti Semitism?

In my experience the ones saying nonNatives should not speak out against exploiters tend to be exploiters or followers of exploiters trying to sidetrack the main issue, which is (surprise) exploiters and their exploitation.

I don't know if you're one of them. I'll wait at least until I see you introduce yourself.

[AndreasWinsnes]

A.R

You are really into skin colour, but forgot to mention Genghis Kahn and his immediate successors, those nice yellow chaps who went camping in Europe for a while. You know, people have always fought and conquered land, and North-Europeans are no exception. Such conquests are nothing to be proud of, but bringing the "Vikings" into this discussion is so far out that I have difficulty taking you seriously.

[A.R.]

Thank you Educatedindian for moving the posts and giving the thread it's proper name.


"Fraud" name calling cuts deep and makes me very angry when I hear it time and time again from non-Natives, who do not know what they are talking about.

F.e.x.
The earlier British lawmakers in this country saw it fit to forcibly remove thousands of Australian Aboriginal children from their parents and their communities to be brought up in institutions or white foster homes in order to "civilize" and to "train" them.   
These children lost their language and most often their tribal origins were concealed from them.   Some 1/4 Aboriginal children were even told that they were Greek, Italian, Asian or descendants of some other culture.   Not to mention all the drama of physical and sexual abuse in these institutions ...... the pain and suffering of the families from whom these children were taken away  ..... the list goes on and on ....
 
Then to add an insult to the injury; - when these "Stolen Generation" people now are seen by some Britts, they are judged as not being "real" Aborigines for not speaking their own language nor knowing the details of their own specific culture.
And that to me is just the "cherry on the top of the cake" !
     
I have heard many, many stories from people who have been in "Missions", listened to the stories by the "Stolen Generation" people telling me what they have gone through, and about their difficult journey back finding their long lost relatives, reconnecting with the culture etc. etc.

Even though I am not an Australian Aboriginal nor a "Stolen Generation" child,  still in many ways I can identify with the situation having gone through a similar kind of "mill". 
I know exactly what it is like, to be a "lost soul" in the world, because your Native identity was concealed from you.   And no, the skin colour is not an issue, unless of course the skin colour of your mother and especially your grandmothers happens to be the "wrong" one.  And even though the danger for safety, because of the skin colour and Native looks passes, the silent fear still lingers on, and the concealment for the grand kids "own good".    Well, it wasn't, but I cannot judge them for thinking for our future survival.   
I do not wish to get into telling my story  further on this forum at this very point anyway.

When it comes to "selling Native culture" commercially.   Tourists love it, others judge it as superficial and fake, there are many opinions.   But in the end of the day, I see that it is the only employment opportunity many have.   And as such it comes to the difference between living, what non-Natives would call normal life, (and having opportunities they take utterly for granted),  and that of living in a "third wold" type of powerty, health problems, low self esteem, alcoholism .... etc. etc. conditions.   
So how dare non-Natives judge !   

To my knowledge, not a single one says 'find out what they have been through', 'understand their journey', or anything similar. That kind of thing is, however, routinely said by frauds and their dupes.
Barnaby McEwans

This quote is exactly what I mean, a perfect demonstration of  "fraud" name calling by a non-Native, who doesn't know what he is talking about, and yet chooses to act like the real "Native Police", knowing the law in the matters of choice of words that should be used by an indigenous person or regarding  other indigenous persons. 



A friend of mine told this joke about how Westerners now taking Indigenous Culture courses soon enough will  turn around and say: "What do y-o-u know about Indigenous Culture ..... you're just an aboriginal".

Laughed at that joke, thought it was too funny, but that joke doesn't seem so funny anymore.
And do you honestly think that there isn't truth in that ?    (A question aimed at the Natives here).

Has the Western concept of what a true Aboriginal person should or shouldn't be like become the yardstick an Aboriginal person now needs to live up to in order to be "real" ?

Also to be worrying about the abuser's feelings getting hurt ..... Been there, done that, even till relatively recently, and got the wake-up-call of my life for my concerns.  (Hence the attitude)
"Traditional politeness and all" that; - is hard to shed, but at least I've learned to think twice (touch wood) before extending my openness to people who do not deserve it,  let alone understand "where I am coming from", even if I spell it out and pour my guts and heart out explaining it.

A.R.

P.S.
And have I been given permission from Aboriginal Elders and Educators to speak about Australian Aboriginal issues ?
Yes I have, I was taught for this very reason. 

Do I wish to drop names ?
No. Not at this point anyway.

[AndreasWinsnes]

When it comes to "selling Native culture" commercially.   Tourists love it, others judge it as superficial and fake, there are many opinions.   But in the end of the day, I see that it is the only employment opportunity many have.   And as such it comes to the difference between living, what non-Natives would call normal life, (and having opportunities they take utterly for granted),  and that of living in a "third wold" type of powerty, health problems, low self esteem, alcoholism .... etc. etc. conditions.   
So how dare non-Natives judge !

   

Personally, I am not judging anybody who lives under the "third world" type of conditions you mention here. But tourists and new agers who exploit such conditions are in a way comparable to European tourists who exploit women in the third world.

Let me repeat that I let traditional natives do the judging. However, if a tribe decides that their culture and religion can be sold at the marketplace, then I can not objectively say that this is wrong, because the conditions they are living under should be taken into consideration, but I can express my anger towards those Western people who, just because of military superiority, have forced natives into such a tragic situation. And with the backing of many traditional natives, I can express my personal opinions that selling your culture and religion to the highest bidder is a tragedy.   

A friend of mine told this joke about how Westerners now taking Indigenous Culture courses soon enough will  turn around and say: "What do y-o-u know about Indigenous Culture ..... you're just an aboriginal".

The only thing that will happen is that a few more individuals will join the same category as countless new agers and others who now show some of the arrogant attitude you mention here. NAFPS will just continue its work, not that this organization should be the measure stick for natives around the world.

And have I been given permission from Aboriginal Elders and Educators to speak about Australian Aboriginal issues ?

Other nonnatives in this forum have the same permission, as stated several times in these threads.

But questions about the role of nonnatives in stopping exploiters are relevant, so I am glad you brought it up.

[Mo]

what the british did to aboriginal children in Australia was copied by what both the Canadian and US governments did here in north america. my own family must live with this painful past and the ripple effects it continues to spread. in canada where my family is from, 50,000 children died at the hands of these church run, government sponsored hell holes and countless more live with the physical and emotional scars of having survived them. indigenous people here understand what has been taken from us in this regard.

Has the Western concept of what a true Aboriginal person should or shouldn't be like become the yardstick an Aboriginal person now needs to live up to in order to be "real" ?

your quote is exactly why it is so important for people to speak up against the cultural and spiritual exploiters. for every traditional native person there are upwards of 10 or so exploiters who claim to know the culture and teach it. they mix traditional ways with new age and mix tribal traditions many times incorporating eastern mysticism and plain old trickery and lies. they make quite a loud noise here with their books and websites and followers world wide. one well known fraud Brook Medicine Eagle, has sold more books than all native authors combined! they convince an unsuspecting non native population that they are the bearers of truth when in fact they are not.

so YES! the western concept of what an aboriginal person should be is shaped by these people to a large extent and true native people are judged on their expectations. this forum is our way to have a voice and be able to reach people who might not otherwise have contact with true native people with traditional knowledge. We are saying "no! this is NOT what we are or what we believe!" the non native people on this forum are helping us do that. not one has to my knowledge taken it upon themselves to judge with anything other than what elders and traditional true indigenous peoples have said is truth for their ways depending on their nation. i am glad they are helping. in the united states we are less than 1% of the total population so you can understand how our voices alone go unheard. but let me quote an aboriginal elder from australia...
"If you've come here to help me, you're wasting your time. But if you've come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson
perhaps those non native people here have come to understand that message clearly. we fight for survival.

[Ingeborg]

I don't think it is sheer coincidence that the only scenario seen by both Nahualqo and A.R. is the one that white persons 'judge' native persons, conveniently ignoring the fact that many frauds and plastics are white, pretending to be native, or to be of native descent, or having had native teachers who 'initiated' them. I have indeed no qualms calling someone a fraud who wrongly claims a tribal membership, and such persons cannot and will not 'teach' and perform valid spirituality, but some distorted version mixing fantasy and fiction. Thus, these persons contribute to the existence of a distorted image of native peoples, and it is in fact them who define what indigenous should and shouldn't be.

I also have no qualms in offering information on evident frauds in my country, to educate and warn people. The same applies to my looking for activities of known frauds in Europe.

However, both Nahualqo and A.R. seem unable to imagine a cooperation from white people, but apparently have the idea that the white members of this board will inevitably go and define indigenous cultures and spirituality. Well, this is either a deliberate misperception in order to promote their attack, or it means they have internalized aspects of the racism displayed by the dominant culture in our societies.

Seeing that A.R. in one of his recent posts explained that s/he wasn't indigenous (despite an earlier claim), but had permission of elders to speak up, I do wonder why s/he is criticizing us the way s/he does. I suspect someone may have had the impression of perceiving a splinter in a few eyes here.

As far as history is concerned: no matter what colour our behinds come with, it is evident that none of us can undo anything that happened centuries ago. This, however, does not give white persons any justification for leaning back comfortably, feign feeling sorry about the past and paying lipservice every now and then while completely ignoring the present. Our responsibility lies with what is going on today, and we will be judged by what we do to counter racism, racist exploitation, stereotyping of non-white peoples, of land being stolen still today, of history being twisted and re-written. We may not retreat to the line of 'Oh my, racism in fact is bad, but what can I do on my own', as unfortunately quite a few people do, and this is an attitude of aiding and abetting.

However, limiting the persons who are 'allowed' to address issues like racism and exploitation, and attempting at dividing those who do, is also aiding and abetting the exploiters and racists, as has been pointed out.
Bearing in mind A.R.'s explanation of not being indigenous but having the permission of elders not named, his/her aiding and abetting is accompanied by a generous helping of hypocrisy.

[A.R.]

Mo

Despite the high visibility and all the data that has been put out, Aboriginal people still at large remain highly invisible and unheard within the Western world .... that we live in.

This is the thing. 
 
As an invisible person within the Western world context, (that we live in); - invisible, because you are only been seen through the eyes of  "Western Reality Orientation" .... (as I personally would like to put it) ...... how do you deal with it ?

In terms of survival, there can be many approaches.
You can try to bridge the gap through education, or setting up "reconciliation" groups and meetings ....
You can try to reach out through common interests or you can try to "assimilate" and then from the point of  understanding  The Western Reality Orientation (intellectually to a point anyway) you may then try to bring your view across.

All of these approaches are valid in my mind anyway, depending who you are doing it.

Or you may have tried 1001 other approaches, bending backwards and forwards in efforts to bridge the gap between Western and Indigenous "thought" in order to come to some common understanding, and hoping against hope that some of it has been worth while, but in the end of the day, so tired and weary of knocking your head against the "wall" you may just decide to leave "the wall" or "the gap" as it is, throwing in the towel in a hissy fit.
  
Finding solace and peace knowing your own truth within you may just come to accept yourself as an invisible person in the Western world.  Maybe even finding delight in being invisible, thus taking the grin and bear and say nothing approach, especially if you are a 1/4 and non-Natives can't  in a multicultural society tell just by looking at you who you are.  
That is an approach of survival as well, which I cannot fault.   It isn't the approach of an "activist", but it does carry silent strength.

Or you can try the alcoholism approach .... I have !    Didn't work but, solved nothing, only made things worse.  But I cannot judge people who do drink, because I did take that road myself.

So.
 
Thank you for the Lilla Watson quote.

One "Stolen Generation" lady who told me her story, (who after years of searching did finally find her mother still alive, many don't), said that the policeman who took her as a child, after how many years had passed, did recognize her straight away when she came back and then this policeman walked to her and said:  "I'm Sorry".
By this time she had already gone through the "mill" and through the healing process and no longer needed anybody to say "sorry" to her, but  h-e  needed to say it, for his own healing, and she recognized that.   Her eyes still shone as she told the story of that moment of reconciliation.

Ingeborg

You do not have to be Native American nor Australian Aboriginal in order to be of indigenous culture and heritage, but living here in Australia has made me realize the many similarities despite our different origins.   That has been the real learning curve and an eye opener for me here. 
Should be more of this type of recognition in the world I reckon.

A.R.

[Mo]

AR

a quick scan of some of the topics in these forums concerning "fake tribes" will show that simply enjoying being invisible is not a good option to take. there are legal ramifications dealing with among other things, sovereignty status. precidences are being set all over the country and anti indian groups are active and thriving. i am sure for many people, simply exposing frauds is not the only action being taken. many including myself are active with education trying to bridge that gap as you have stated.

[A.R.]

When you are born indigenous it is for life.
Whether you live in a tribal setting or in town or in another country, the "issue of indigenousness" just doesn't go away, because you carry it within you.

You just learn to deal with it the best way you can.

What I've seen is that the colonial exploitative attitudes have not changed, but instead they have just become covert and at times also have the appearance of even being well meaning.

There are plenty good folk among the Western white population , and one of course loves them dearly for who they are.

But when one becomes "a cause worker" for Native Americans, be it South or North and yet the indigenous problem within one's own country goes unacknowledged, because they are not the WOW people .... "The Spiritual Elders, The Medicine Men, The Native Warriors" etc. etc. but instead some dirty old drunken eskimos or no-good aborigines .... something in this picture doesn't quite fit in place for me, and I just get the same old sick feeling in my gut about it.

A.R.
 

[Barnaby_McEwan]

But when one becomes "a cause worker" for Native Americans, be it South or North and yet the indigenous problem within one's own country goes unacknowledged, because they are not the WOW people .... "The Spiritual Elders, The Medicine Men, The Native Warriors" etc. etc. but instead some dirty old drunken eskimos or no-good aborigines .... something in this picture doesn't quite fit in place for me, and I just get the same old sick feeling in my gut about it.

What are you talking about? No one speaks like that here about any indigenous person. Your continuing insinuations of colonialism are a bit rich coming from someone who

• roughly a decade ago 'went native' on the strength of having a Siberian grandma despite having lived most of your life in Australia, where you live now
• took a course put together by Aboriginal people at an 'environmental centre' and decided that makes you a spokesperson for Aboriginal people

I will repeat my earlier warning: think very carefully before posting anything else.