Author Topic: "But whats the harm?"  (Read 45006 times)

weheli

  • Guest
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2007, 09:40:37 pm »
You see that is where things get all twisted. Many think they can "become" without the TRUE Knowing".
There IS NO CHEROKEE SHAMAN!!! of course the Eastern Cherokee of NC would treat someone who walks up and says, as though they had every right to, "my wife is a Cherokee Shaman", LOL, would be treated as they were, and than having said "My wife is a Cherokee Shaman" which implies to those who don't know the Cherokee Teachings, That she must "have the knowledge" to than ask for her to be taught, for those who do know, is a laughable matter!!!

Again I say, these teachings are learned from birth, passed down. GO spend time and do volunteer work! You will be watched very carefully for a long period of time, LONG period of TIme. You don't go in search of an Elder, they WIll find you.
                                                                              Weheli

Laurel

  • Guest
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2007, 11:07:23 am »
It was beyond laughable--it made me wonder about their sanity.

Think about it:  They got in their car somewhere and drove to a place where they knew nobody to beg for spiritual training by saying they already had it because the white woman in the car is not really white and claims to be an impossible thing--like a unicorn.  Then they drove all the way to Memphis to stop, and this had to be completely at random, at a museum where some Choctaw currently live.  The guy ran in all out of breath and asked for someone to teach his "Cherokee shaman" wife as if it were a matter of national security. All I can imagine is that whenever they stopped for directions anywhere, the husband would grab the nearest service station emplyee by the neck and yell, "Where are the Indians?  I have an Indian in my car and she needs Indians to teach her how to be an Indian right now!"  ("TAKE ME TO YOUR UNICORNS!")  His wife was hiding in the car throughout the incident BTW; she couldn't take a "rejection" like they got in NC. 

That's just nutty, nutty to a level I thought I'd only ever encounter on the internet.   :)

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

  • Posts: 861
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2007, 04:56:48 pm »
Oh, they're real, and they're out there. I wonder about this guy's sanity: he's Dennis Avner aka Catman who represents himself at tattoo conventions as 'part Huron', and that his 'totem animal' is the tiger. People walk away from gawping at him knowing less about Indians than they did before. They don't learn about the Wyandotte people's long history or its struggles and controversies today. They learn that 'Hurons' have 'totem animals'.


weheli

  • Guest
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2007, 05:01:39 pm »
 ;D ;D ;D Barnaby,
I have seen this guy on TV and "HIS STORY". LOL
Laurel I am laughing so hard and shaking my head,chocking on my coffee as I read your post. Thanks for a good Belly Laugh..... ;D ;D ;D ;D
                                                                           Weheli

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

  • Posts: 861
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2007, 05:08:56 pm »
It's funny but it's so wrong on so many levels. I really do wonder about his sanity.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 05:27:41 pm by Barnaby_McEwan »

frederica

  • Guest
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2007, 05:33:50 pm »
LOL, I can't say what I'm really thinking, but that borders on the absurd. I agree this guy has a big problem. If he had a brain he take it out and play with it. frederica

Laurel

  • Guest
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2007, 09:29:51 am »
weheli, always glad to amuse, but put the coffee down!  I'm not buying you a new monitor if you spit-take.   :)   

I had no idea that tiger dude claimed Native heritage.  Ye gods.  Don't you wish you had the money he put into those "whisker" implants alone?  What about that guy who's trying to turn himself into a lizard or something, what's he? A Bushman, an Aborigine, a Sami?  The only nation these folks can claim real membership in is the Wakjabi Tribe.   

Offline wolfhawaii

  • Posts: 293
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2007, 01:06:46 am »
I have hesitated for many months before deciding to post on the topic of money and ceremony. It is very clear when there is obvious abuse going on regarding ceremonies when people  are connected to their own traditions.  What I have not seen in any of the discussions I have been reading on this site, is that there are native traditions in which it was/is expected that the person seeking healing pay for it. I recently read a book about California native healers who charged for their services long before the New Age got interested in Indian ceremonies. (Yeah, I read a book, big deal  ;) ) I mention that only to illustrate that there are traditions in which that was the norm. For the Cherokees out there, a careful reading of Mooney will also illustrate this practice, which continues to this day. Mooney was not always correct on all his information but there was a lot of accurate historical and current info there at the time he was writing. I personally know of current Cherokee medicine people who accept "gifts" for their services. They don't "charge" fees, but it is culturally understood that a suitable gift (money in particular) is a vital part of the medicine, and if the gift is weak, the medicine may be also as the spiritual correspondence is linked. The time and sacrifices made to continue these ancient healing practices is significant, and the person seeking healing should be invested in the result for it to have the best effect.
I don't want to go too much more in depth in discussing this but I would like to hear responses if anyone cares to comment. regards, Steve

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3290
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2007, 07:06:23 am »
"But there is a lot of love there so what's the harm?"

There is no such thing as love without respect.  Why isn't the following OK?

"You're Catholic?  Wow, I love Catholics, you're all so cool and spiritual!  Hey, who's your patron saint?  I'm 1/32nd Catholic, you know.  I can't prove it, but my mom always told me my great-grandma was an altar boy.  Can I come to your church and run a Mass?  Why not?  Father Supercool High Pooh-Bah Popeman Two Saints made me a priest last Tuesday at a Zen Catholicism workshop!  Look, here's my rosary, it's rilllly sacred!  Anyway, you're just a bigot!  Stop judging me!  Crapping on your heritage and belief system is my spirituality. I had a vision where Jesus told me to do it and it makes me happy!  By the way, can I touch your holy medal?"

"And do you want me to baptize your children?  I speak a little Catholic.  I can give them power names like 'Saint' and 'Martyr' and 'StationOfTheCross' or 'Kabbalah'.  OK, I know that last one isn't strictly Catholic, but my father is 1/32nd Judeo-something!  I think his great great grandmother was a Kabbalah Princess, and her spiritual name was Goyim."

 ;)

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3290
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2007, 07:17:28 am »
They don't learn about the Wyandotte people's long history or its struggles and controversies today. They learn that 'Hurons' have 'totem animals'.

And he knows about all those tigers living in secret in Oklahoma and Kansas!  He must really have some sooper-seekrit-shameonic wisdom!  I'm sure right now the "Cherokee Shaman"s husband is pounding on his door.

Offline educatedindian

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4769
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2007, 01:10:08 pm »
Steve,
Thought about putting your question and the replies in a separate thread until I looked again at Moma P's initial questions.

I think the difference is between accepting payment as a sign of esteem, respect, and gratitude compared to *demanding up front* a huge and fixed payment obviously designed to squeeze as much profit as possible out of the mark/victim.

I've heard this objection before too. I know the Karuk and Navajo might *seem* to accept payment in cash. For Navajo medicine people, that payment actually is mostly to cover the expense of ceremony, materials, and esp the cost of a feast for all involved including relatives of the one being healed.

But to compare that to some Nuager going online to set up an elaborate website and rental of a business suite (Scarlet McKinney said she spends 40 grand a year on these), demanding a set price usually in the thousands, Visa and Mastercard and Paypal accepted...the two practices are very different.

The set price practice of Nuagers also is very crass and disrespectful. Native medicine people never say, This is the cost. More often they'd accept what the person being healed is able to give, even if it's just a good meal or a homemade blanket. And if cash is given, any left over after paying for the materials tends to be given away quickly to others in need. All the traditions I know of say a healer is supposed to be generous by nature or people stop respecting them and spirits quit talking to them.

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2007, 03:10:51 pm »
Hi Steve
I don't know much beyond the basics , but I have always got the feeling Spiritual guidence is a bit different than healing .

Probably it is different in different places , but the way I have seen it ,appreciation for assistance in personal healing is usually shown with a gift after the healing . This seems to be done in a similar way to buying groceries and giving something as a gift when you stay at someones house . I have never seen a set fee or advertising , and I have heard many comments from traditional people and Elders that this is not rightly done . I once saw someone who saved a childs life helped out decades later , by the extended family of the child that was saved . When people are helped in communities where
 they have life long relationships, people remember that help , and show their gratitude. But I haven't seen a set fee before hand . My intuition is that is partly because it would be arrogant to presuppose the outcome of a healing done mainly by Spiritual agents that are not owned by the healer .

Advertising also seems to be offensive . I am guessing one of the reasons might be because healing that involves more than basic plant medicines, can be dangerous if things aren't right , and traditional healers might not be comfortable assuming they can help everyone with any sort of problem . I know people who felt they needed one type of healing who went to a medicine person , and they were offered something very different than what they expected , so advertising for a specific type of a healing ceremony , might be seen as prematurely nailing things down .       

In a traditional community people usually know to make sure Elders and Spiritual leaders have what they need , and if something takes a lot of time , or energy , people usually know enough to make sure that no one suffers a loss for having given of their time and energy . But it is only the New Age or non native community that tends to see "Spiritual teachings" as something for "self improvement", which might be "gotten " in exchange for money .  Within a traditional community the morals and values taught by Spiritual leaders benifit the whole community  , and the idea that anyone would charge someone to learn to be a better member of the community , or that someone might have a right to charge admissioin to a relationship with powers greater than ourselves, seems really disrespectful and arrogant .

As Freija says , just the fact that in most traditions Native Elders feel charging for ceremonies , Spiritual teachings and ceremonial items is wrong, should be enough . Elders usually know what they are talking about , and there is good reasons things are done as they are .

All over the world  , most religions find the idea of charging people an admission fee to have a relationship with a higher  power offensive , and most Spiritual traditons manage to run on some system of collectiong donations . There is probably a good reason for that .

Moral teachings and values seem to be the backbone of all the worlds Spiritual traditons , but when people start charging this backbone gets downplayed or even removed . Charging money for Spiritual support and guidence reduces the function of Spirituality in our lives,  to a personal feel good experience . Charging for Spirituality shifts the focus away from our responsibilities , and learning what we as individuals have to give , to what people stand to get . For themselves .  Which right away is not what Spiritual teachings were originally intended to be doing .

While it might make sense to charge people for something they are going to get , it doesn't make sense to charge people for learning what they have a responsibility to give back to the community .  Reducing the moral values of a culture to a feel good experience that involves mainly the more colorful dramatic parts of the culture , and a consumeristic desire to "get more of the good stuff" , degrades and trivializes the true purpose and function of a cultures Spirituality .
     
Money attracts the wrong people with the wrong motivations , and can create a subtle pressure to pass on knowledge to those who can pay , rather than to those with the characters best suited to serve the community with this traditional knowledge. Within a traditional community it seems just the help of someone who had the ability to contribute more , as a result of having been taught , would be more than adaquet compensation .

Money can also motivate people who don't know what they are doing to become "healers" or "Spiritual leaders' , and healers and Spiritual leaders that don't know what they are doing can be dangerous .

I only know very basic information , and I have pieced this together from various comments and things I have seen. If any of this is incorrect or if anyone  has a better or different understanding , I hope they will share it.

Every tribe probably has slightly different traditions , but Richard Allen who is a spokesperson for the CNO wrote an article explaining the Cherokee traditions around advertising , charging , and payment , which is helpful . It can be accessed through the link below .   

http://web.archive.org/web/20051207172424/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/art00001.htm
Richard Allan
Quote
Cherokee medicine people and spiritual leaders are known to the Cherokee people and do not practice medicine for a fee nor sell "shamanic" lessons to anyone. They do not advertise their services through any form of media and certainly not over the internet. Traditional Cherokee healers and spiritual leaders provide their services to the Cherokee people. A Cherokee medicine person or spiritual leader is fluent in the Cherokee language and would conduct any medical or spiritual practices by using the Cherokee language. Therefore, our medicine people are those who were born of a Cherokee mother and a Cherokee father and would have been reared within a Cherokee community speaking the Cherokee language. Our traditional Cherokee healers and spiritual leaders are humble people and would not present themselves as such nor "hang out a shingle" so to speak. Cherokee medicine people are acknowledged and recognized by members of the Cherokee community as effective healers and leaders.

It is the recognition of the Cherokee people that validates these persons as medicine people and healers not self-proclaimation. We may provide them small gifts, a token amount of money or foodstuffs in payment for their services. They do not charge for their services nor would they withhold their services when asked and they certainly would not prescribe payment by credit card.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2007, 08:29:36 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline AndreasWinsnes

  • Posts: 82
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2007, 01:29:42 am »
Evenk shamans and other healers in Siberia never demand money, but everybody knows that it is proper to offer a gift to the person in appreciation of his or her help. Poor people give little, rich people offer more. It all depends on your situation. It can be food or something else. Nowadays, it is usual to offer money, because you don't know what the healers actually need, and it is not proper to ask in advance. People who demands money are not considered real healers. Real healers survive easily without demanding money, because people support them with gratitude. It is a kind of exchanging gifts, supporting each other in a world that can be brutal.   

Offline wolfhawaii

  • Posts: 293
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2007, 02:40:15 am »
Good Comments ;) My edutsi (clan uncle) told me that Cherokee medicine people are like priests in that they have a long formal period of study which does not deviate from what they are taught by a qualified adanawisgi. Shamans, on the other hand, often receive a direct personal revelation from the spirits which allows them to be helpers. This of course makes fraud more likely and difficult to prove. If a Cherokee person received a shamanistic revelation, then they could be a shaman who happened to be Cherokee, but it would not make them a "Cherokee Shaman" as this is not the traditional norm. Set fees and demands for payments should be a red flag in all cases, and community service to the people they come from and a known track record of effective help should exist. Regards, Steve

Offline Freija

  • Posts: 288
  • I Love YaBB 2!
Re: "But whats the harm?"
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2007, 09:01:21 am »
I´d like to add to the "What´s the harm?"-question.  There is also a question of the spiritual part of it, of which I know very little but have heard the explanations from Lakota medicinepeople. In order for the spirits to come in to ceremonies, the protocol must be followed in every detail. When people are playing round with these things, the songs and prayers loose their power, the spirits will realize they are being called down to a faked ceremony and finally they won´t come in at all, even to the real ceremonies. This is of course devostating and is truly a spiritual/cultural genocide. In fact, when we talked to elders in SD this was one of their biggest worries in connection with the appropriation of their spirituality.

(I hope I got this right or maybe someone would like to correct me? )