Carlos Castaneda

[A.H.]

(to Ari and garners)

Ok. I am sorry I could not be of any help to you.

Understanding fraud and its methodology and psychology and seeking valid ways of knowledge and trying to show that to others is one of the ways of fighting fraud and decreasing the number of followers. Frauds are few - followers are many...

best

[garners]

I do not know why you say you cannot be of any help to us AH.
Seems as usual ...if you want to help.... take action.

Please consider writing to Shambhala Mountain Center and politely informing them that by supporting and promoting Castaneda group of Cleargreen they are continuing with an abuse of Native American's culture.
I do not think they realize that Cleargreen is based on dishonest claim that it all comes from wise old Indian don Juan and his 27 generation lineage of magical Mexica shamans..

Tibetan Buddhists should know better than to support cultural appropriation of Indians when they themselves are looking for any help they can get to preserve their own culture and spirituality. Including sharing discussions with genuine Indians.

I wholly encourage writing to Shambhala Mountain Cenrter and politely setting them straight and ask them to stop the support of phoney Indian claimants before it brings more embarrassment and shame to Tibetan Buddhism.

Shambhala Mountain Center:
developmentdirector@shambhalamountain.org


I would also suggest writing to the Dalai lama. And asking that the issue of Indian Tibetan support of each other's cultures be given greater attention and encourage him to look into the matter of Shambhala Mountain Center supporting  cultural fraud.
 He is a very polite person and could be a powerful ally of Indian activist's if he was more aware of the issues involved. 
He or at least his representatives are almost certain to write back promptly..

His Holiness the Dalai Lama contact:
ohhdl@dalailama.com

Telephone:
91 1892 221343       
91 1892 221879
Fax:
91 1892 221813

[Kevin]

I will email too and if a bunch of us do, it will have its intended affect. That's top-notch advice, Garners.

[outershell]

one thing i hear in defense of Carlos Casteneda/ Don Juan is something like: "Even if it is a lie it helps you realize the truth" or some crap like that. that line of reasoning has never made any sense to me.
 I don't have the words to explain it, but a lie is a lie and the truth is the truth. how can you believe in something you know is a lie?

its sad but ppl still follow the book and pay through the nose:
http://www.parallelperception.com/
(notice that tuition starts at $150.00)

[frederica]

It's escapist literature, came out of the psychedilic 60's. He was a con man, pretty skilled one at that, died of hepatic cancer. I could never figure if he actually used Datura or Peyote, but he didn't seen to know the difference, or he just make it up as he went along. I think it still holds up as pure escapist literature, nothing more, nothing less. Strictly non-fiction. I would take it as nothing more than reading a novel.  It's like people paying money to be around Suraj Holzwarth. What is that about? I don't know what they are looking for or rather lacking in their lives that they have to do that.

[A.H.]

I am very interested in what will they reply... Because the "leader" of the Shambala center himself has graced Cleargreen in participating personally as a part of their workshop. And he is befriended with them... And it is really hard to convince a person who has a good personal connection with someone with ANY hard fact from outside.

I think you will protesting about one fraud to another fraud...

You should also understand that Tibetan Buddhism as such is primarily a monastic and very hierarchic (guru/lama system) one, so it is very culturally bound and if spread outside its culture can easily become sectarian (if it is not already in its original form).

In its "reatreat" and workshop form it is also watered down - "westernized" and just another new-age means to make people feel better... That is not so bad, because at least it is done by the carriers of the tradition, but still pretty meaningless for anyone seriously interested in "liberation" as hinted in Castaneda (liar's truth) and more thoroughly explained and thought through in many other "valid" philosophical/spiritual traditions - most profoundly in Taoism (that "garners" percieves totally ingorantly as a new-age rendition of Asian philosophies - where could you get such idea?) and Chan/Zen Buddhism which do exist also as purely "philosophical schools" that can be shared or taught to the World because they transcend simple form and superstitions and social hierarchical structures as leaders, gurus, monasteries, rituals, etc.

So - I am really interested what will they answer - and maybe it is time to acknowledge also Shambala center as "fraud" or at least as "new age something", hehe. 

[garners]

Well AH if you are interested in what they will reply.. have you written?

Or is it easier for you to just express how much you think you know and others do not.

I never stated Taoism is New Age I clearly said "New age treatments of Asian philosophies"
But I am aware that people playing Taoist games are the last to realize that they are just roleplaying at authenticity with another wise old appropriaton.

 The point is that anything  added or compared to  Castaneda is New Ageified.

I do not get your drift about Shambhala besides just chiming in again as a contrarian. "For balance" I assume.

 Of course they are sponsoring New Age. And certainly they are decadent.
That is why to write them and to have many people do so.
To express with many voices that in supporting pretend Indians they are not doing right behavior and instead are adding to fraud and spiritual materialism.

This is how it works when elevating peoples awareness about their support of frauds.

Even Sakyong Mipham is not stupid and without seeds of compassion.

And if Tibetan Buddhism openly condems appropriation of Indian culture he would have a hard time justifying supporting it.
This is why an activist dialogue with the dalai Lama should be pursued.
It could have good consequence for both parties.

[A.H.]

garners - good luck with the fight. I am glad there is a fresh Cleargreen thread open.

But I still think you personally waste too much time with Castaneda and because of being a victim of his fraudulent organisation you started to see only fraud around instead of searching for authentic sources that are available and willing to be shared and that you can read and contemplate without embarresment or danger of being physically or financially abused or that your actions would do that to others... 

Reading and contemplating Lao Tse, Shinichi Hisamatsu, D.T.Suzuki, Vine Deloria Jr. (wov, what a man - I am just discovering his work right now), Dan Lusthaus, Karl Jaspers, etc. would certainly keep you away from any "new-age"...

Actually I posted this reply primarily because I just found this opinion (in my view one of the most clear and unbiased ones I read till now - but I could be wrong and I haven't checked the validity/authenticity of that blogger):

http://indioheathen.blogspot.com/2006/05/wizard-of-ixtln.html

[Ari]

A. H.,

This is site dedicated to publishing info on New Age fraud and related discussions. You circling around the topic with insistent advises to get away from any new age, drop it and forget it all.

I don't see logic in your performance...

I think your assumption that garners needs your advise on what to read is a bit arrogant. Also your assumption that garners is blinded by victimhood to appreciate merits of Castanedian teaching seems to be absurd.

Let me point it out to you: authentic sources don't make big deal about making people believe that to be a victim of a fraud is embarrasing. To incode in people's minds the idea that to be a victim is shameful is favorite New Age trick to escape responsibility.

[A.H.]

I don't see logic in your performance...

I think your assumption that garners needs your advise on what to read is a bit arrogant.

Yes, you are right, it is arrogant, even if it was not meant to be. Sorry.

About logic - explaining it all again would go too off topic..

... but my assumption was/is that you can get blinded by the victimhood to start only seeing fraud everywhere - I didn't say that you became blinded to not being able to appreciate C. teaching... You twist and misinterpret what I say all the time. But I am idiot enough to really had this strange urge to offer a helping advice... that's also my arrogance I guess.

"Have fun" with debunking Castaneda, I should now really quit this topic - it is not healthy to spent so much time on it...



best

[garners]

The  pretend Indian Don Juan is obviously a weak spot for you AH..

...you keep putting your foot in mouth and then swearing not to do it again.

"Ok - enough from me on this topic" -AH -4/21

"I wish to end writing about Castaneda here"   - AH -4/23

"I should now really quit this topic" -AH -5/01

Now you are posting as further balancing defense of Castaneda a  pretend "medicine elder" and supposed new age practitioner's blog

You link to it saying it is  "clear and unbiased"
But it  surely is not.

It is written by:

The "Indigenous American medicine elder Tacalihua "Indioheathen" Zecope PsyD NA"

 rotfl

This person  "Indioheathen" shows he knows nothing of what is factual about Toltecs.
Although he is certainly lost in the Castaneda fabrications of them.
Here are some of the lies that this self appointed elder supports:

"Don Juan's shamanic teacher was from an ancient lineage of shamans known as Nagual, which originated with the ancient Toltecs, but over time became a shamanic lineage made up of Mexican Indians from various tribes."-Indioheathen

"in ancient Toltec terminology, nagual also refers to a higher state of being and awareness beyond ordinary human mortal status. Ordinary human mortal status and awareness is referred to as the tonal." -Indioheathen

(this is entirely Castaneda fantasy there is no Toltec lore stating this)

"a lot of the terms, experiences, and people recorded in Castaneda's writings are authentic."  -Indioheathen

 He should at least provide a few actual examples. He does not for a reason- there is a total lack of authenticity in Castaneda.

"Don Juan, using Castenada-recorded Nagual lineage terminology, departed for "The Third Attention" (an afterlife) via "the fire from within" (a form of spontaneous combustion) back in the early 1900's." -Indioheathen

This guy is so deluded he actually tries to claim there was a real don Juan BUT much earlier and that this don Juan also went into Castaneda's third attention dimension by burning from the fire within half a century before Castaneda's books.... lol.. 

"one of the reasons why Castaneda was so elusive with the public most of his career as an author was because he had diseminated secret, sacred knowledge to the world that had never been revealed before, even to anthropologists. He was given permission to do so with restrictions from his "Don Juan" teacher, and that Don Juan himself ended up an outcast by indigenous elders in Sonora for sharing the sacred knowledge to an outsider that publicized it." -Indioheathen

What were you saying about this person's opinion of Castaneda being "one of the most clear and unbiased ones you have read till now", AH?

"Don Juan himself ended up an outcast by indigenous elders in Sonora" ??

Being an "Elder" himself I guess Ricardo Indioheathen Tacalihua  Zecope knows this first hand?

Probably how he knows this too:

"In his book Magical Passes, the movements illustrated are authentic in the way of being actual, ancient Mesoamerican techniques for protection and manipulating energy" -Indioheathen

Indioheathen is such a phoney. Obviously he is playing a game of pretending to be knowlegeable of this stuff but he is lost.

He even claims Castaneda wrote Being in Dreaming while in a schizophrenic state.. which he claims all Indigenous people  realize is a real other dimension...an other reality.

"This was especially true in Being in Dreaming, where he was in an uncontrolled schizophrenic state most of the time." -Indioheathen

Being in Dreaming was written by Florinda Donner... one of Castaneda's missing followers... whose earlier book "Shobono" was exposed as a plagiarism of Ettore Biocca's book entitled "Yanoáma: The Story of Helena Valero, a Girl Kidnapped by Amazonian Indians"   

Nothing in this blog post by Indioheathen was unbiased or clear.
 Clearly Indioheathen is a phoney roleplayer and not a medicine elder.

[A.H.]

You are probably right about that blogger, garners.  I liked that his writing seemed devoid of emotional charge... that made me percieve it as unbiased...

You are also right about me and Don Juan (I could fall under the Vine Deloria's opinion on Don Juan and western psychopathology connected with the need for such caracters) - but that is off topic..

My opinion on Castaneda is not relevant. I am crazy anyway. Hehehe..

But I am not in favour of simplistic condemnations. I want to understand motivations and ideas behind things. Just pointing finger and shouting fraud in this specific case is not helpful on that way.

It is obvious today that it is fraud - but emotional and ideological impact remains and it is wise to look for reasons why and how. I posted everything I think about that already. I have no special wish (anymore?) to impose my understanding about that on you or anybody. I offered opinion that ideas he used can be found in more authentic form elsewhere - that is true - others confirmed it also. And many of them come from various Asian philosophies. You can read those philosophies without connecting yourself to new age or Castaneda - that was my point.


Anyway - I already posted a useful link to the lenghty article in Salon:

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/04/12/castaneda/

It covers much that it needs be covered.


And there is another interesting (historical - from the 70's) article that tries to understand the phenomena not just condemn it simplistically:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,903890-1,00.html


Now I will really quit this topic, heheh. Or maybe I won't.


Good luck and best




 

[Ari]

A.H.,

There is no mystifying complexity in castanedaism. It is fraud in the core, rotten seed.

I think studies of complexities of born out of fraud psychological entanglements would cover issues of complexities of castanedaism much better than entertaining interested public cheesy articles about celebrities.

Anyhow, A. H.... if you would be sincere in giving advises to get over it, unlikely you would insist on pointing out complexities and supposed goodness.   

[garners]

AH is sincere.... in flaunting his roleplaying .
I think he has just found what he thinks are better more intellectual roles to play
and it seems he is caught in a loop of validating and authenticating himself.

 The  dated Time magazine article is filled with culty come ons. Ari is right to classify it as she does as cheesy celebrity nonsense.
And the Salon article is good but really did not investigate into the missing people nor the misrepresentations of Cleargreen.

These are the legacy of Castaneda now.

How much of a suicide cult did Castaneda spawn and why does Cleargreen ..while saying they are "The modern-day practice of personal accountability." ... perpetuate a lie that what they teach comes from generations of Ancient Lofty Indians?

well we know why .. for giving it validation to new Agers that drink that  stuff up like kool aid.
Not realizing that it is a Jim Jones style brew.

[Thinker]

Castaneda wasn't just an innocent fake who became cult leader by writing some books which are fictional stories containing wisdom stolen from other traditions. That would be too easy, and couldn't explain the influence he had on his victims.

The truth is, as far as I have discovered by now, that he's an evil sorcerer who attempted to create his own "religion", and that he's not alone. They are four or five men, whom he provided with fictional characters as described in his stories, and they work together in this project. (Or should I say "worked"?)

I have met them, and I had quite some interactions with them, in the real world as well as in the vision world. (I could call it "separate reality", but I don't want to use his terminology, and I don't know which word you use for this place which is where you meet telepathically, be it in visions of different appearance and intensity, or be it just energetic interactions.)

These men are: Castaneda himself, then a person who uses the Don Genaro identity as well as the Nagual Julian identity, then someone who appears as Don Juan and who appeared to me also as Caesar, then the Silvio Manuel man, and then someone who frequently appears to me as Miraculix (from Asterix & Obelix, if you know that), and who has to do with Vicente and Warrior Seer. (They all have internet identities, most easily found on SR, but it's quite hard to discern them as all of them use quite a couple of names.)

Also it has to be noted that Castaneda is not dead, that they faked his death because his ugly being became all too apparent for his followers, and that then the Genaro/Julian guy took over and lead them until it also became all too apparent that he's a criminal, too.

These seem to be the main culprits, there are some others who are of less importance, and maybe would be okay people if they hadn't been mislead, so maybe there's some sort of forgiving for the minor guys.

In the moment there's the punishment and getting rid of these bastards going on, process is slow, but fast and secure since I have some big helpers "on the other side" (people who lived long ago and still exist somewhere), and they see it as some sort of revenge since these criminals have no respect whatsoever and even tried to steal their energy, not only that, they wanted to do away with them and devour them.

Well, now it's the other way round. I'm sure some of them read this, and they will feel freaky if all their spiritual energies will be gone and they'll be left as ordinary men without any supernatural powers at all.



I need to end this with a funny statement I read somewhere: A medicine man from the (fill in yours) tribe was asked: "Do you have supernatural powers?" He responded: "I only have natural powers. But they are super."