Sustained Reaction

[custodian]

I am not much of an enthusiast for Nagualgo, and I have been avoiding reading his materials for some time prior to his arrival here at NAFPS.

I am certainly not his advocate, and if he were not being effectively challenged and debated by others, I would probably take time away from my other chores to do it myself.

Regardless, I am a strong advocate of fair play and honesty. I am also a passionate advocate for lawful abidance while maintaining vigorous debate.

To this end I wish to make it very clear that the Sustained Action / Reaction website is no loger managed nor populated by former Cleargreen members or ex students of Carlos Castaneda.

I have been a long time regular at SA / SR since shortly after it was created. I have personally witnessed its evolution / devolution into its pressent day form.

Most of the pressent members, including the owner / administration, moderator and council members have never even met Carlos Castaneda nor had any personal dealings what-so-ever with Cleargreen.

When statements are to be made and positions adopted, it is always best to be well informed.

[debbieredbear]

Thanks for the info custodian.

[custodian]

I wish to open this post by stating that I am completely anti-censorship, except when censoring unlawful material.

SR reports are that the management of this website feels free to arbitrarily disregard the laws of free speech and hack and chop away at whatever posts displease them and not just limiting their censorship to unlawful materials.

At the end of the day, if this is true, I doubt my membership here will last but a few more moments?

Despite this, I find it interesting that the new poster name 'Barbanegro' is richly complaining this evening at SR website about the unjustified levels of censorship imposed against him here at NAFPS.

The ironic and comical part is that he himself owns and admins his own website where he also practices similar forms of censorship of his own patrons posts.

I know this for a fact because I am a former patron of his website who disposed of my membership after being unjustly censored.

Turn-around is fair play, and funny as well!

[debbieredbear]

custodian,

If you are polite and don't abuse other posters, no one will censor you.  But abusing other posters doesn't go over well here. By abuse I distenctly mean name calling and flaming and other trollish behavior. Threatening people is not ok either. Calling someone on their BS is fine. Correcting a misconception is fine. Stating your opinion is fine. Of course, others may poke holes in your opinion. Or disagree with it.

[Barbanegra]

Let me tell you something about this guy Custodian:

He asked me to remove him from my memberlist after I deleted a post of his in which he called another member of my board an internet wh...  Fill in the blancs. he was banned for the same from SR, and assumed he could continue his harassment on my board.

If you trust this guy, well.....good luck.


And beware.

[custodian]

custodian,

If you are polite and don't abuse other posters, no one will censor you.  But abusing other posters doesn't go over well here. By abuse I distenctly mean name calling and flaming and other trollish behavior. Threatening people is not ok either. Calling someone on their BS is fine. Correcting a misconception is fine. Stating your opinion is fine. Of course, others may poke holes in your opinion. Or disagree with it.

Debbie, can you see how difficult and unjustified it would be to remain polite to certain mentalities, points of view and groups of beings such as Arian Nation White Supremists?

Sometimes being polite is exactly the wrong response to a given situation.

How can a reasonable being declare that politeness is always justified and that all acts of impoliteness are subject to censorship? 

If some A-hole came in here arguing that it was a good thing for white hnters to kill off all the Buffalo, would you really expect me to remain polite to that person, and would you censor me if I laid the boots to them and their opinions?

If so, why?

[custodian]

Let me tell you something about this guy Custodian:

He asked me to remove him from my memberlist after I deleted a post of his in which he called another member of my board an internet wh...  Fill in the blancs. he was banned for the same from SR, and assumed he could continue his harassment on my board.

If you trust this guy, well.....good luck.


And beware.

I described one of the patrons as "an internet whore".

Why did I do so?

I did so because that particular person was changing their points of view from one extreme to another, from one website to another, and each change depending upon who owned that particular website and what the owners personal views were.

In other words, this person would say whatever they felt they had to say just to please each website owner and thereby gain some political favour with each website owner.

That type of behavior is commonly described as 'whoring' and that is why I described this person as "an internet whore". The fact that my description was censored therafter does little more than confirm the intentions of that particular website owner to protect anyone willing to publicly agree with him, even if they are doing so without any sincerity.

[debbieredbear]

custodian,

Each situation is different. I have not been a moderator long so have not faced what you are describing. But in general, being polite and not abusing others works well.

Barbanegra,

I trust few people. Especially on the net.

[educatedindian]

This topic was split, since it was going into a different topic, and moved to Research Needed. Usually Research Needed is about individuals or groups suspected of being exploiters, but not always. Sometimes people simply want to know more about a subject, and in this case that includes me wanting to ask about SR.

Kinda funny to see Barbanegra breaking her promise to not come back so quickly.

Custodian, in my own case, I would expect you to be polite to that POV, but not to them being an asshole. As sickening as it is to Native people to see someone cheer the near extinction of a species, white supremacy, etc, I know from teaching that many whites in the US have lived lives where they just don't come into contact with any other POV in the people around them. I've had white students tell me I was the first nonwhite they'd ever met, that they just hadn't thought of these issues before, etc.

So in some cases they may just not know. Ignorance is an explanation for not knowing any better, but never an excuse for being an asshole.

"I wish to make it very clear that the Sustained Action / Reaction website is no loger managed nor populated by former Cleargreen members or ex students of Carlos Castaneda.
I have been a long time regular at SA / SR since shortly after it was created. I have personally witnessed its evolution / devolution into its pressent day form.
Most of the pressent members, including the owner / administration, moderator and council members have never even met Carlos Castaneda nor had any personal dealings what-so-ever with Cleargreen."

This is pretty disturbing to me. Only a few months ago, I recommended to an ex Castaneda cult member that he go there for advice. It's pretty obvious there is a great need for a place for survivors of his "teachings".

Where are the ex members of Cleargreen going instead? Why did they leave?

Is SR primarily made of up of people who, amazingly, still want to believe in Castaneda after all the damage he's done to millions, and after him having been repeatedly exposed, even admitting publicly many times himself that he's a fraud?

So far, what I've seen of current SR members doesn't give me much hope. I hope they aren't representative.

[custodian]

Educatedindian, I have now figured out what you have done with all the various posts.

I feel it was perhaps wise to split the one thread about Nagualgo but otherwise very unwise to prejudice the Castaneda thread by placing it into the 'frauds catagory', particularly during the middle of an investigation that seems to be proving out in Castanedas favour.

Did you do what you did because you afraid of what would happen if it is proven that Castaneda may not have been writing fiction?

[custodian]

Educatedindian, the founding members of Sustained Action / Reaction have all moved on. Many were purpted to be ex members of Castaneda's special Sunday gatherings. Others calimed to be former members of Cleargreen. Most had moved on before 2003. I am not aware of any that are still there.

Sustain Action began as a website falsely described as being a place to explore the Legacy of Carlos Castaneda, but actually intended to malign and bash Carlos Castaneda and embarass the people at Cleargreen.

Though Sustain Action still claims to be about the Legacy of Castaneda, it is now a website run by exclusively by small minded rednecks dedicated to advancing the idea that the human spirit is a myth and the spiritual ideals of mankind are all false in nature and that nothing mystical exists outside of the tiny phyisical reality of everyday life.

[educatedindian]

It sounds as though a place designed to be a refuge for survivors of a pretty horrific cult, has been taken over by apologists for the worst of all Nuage exploiters and frauds.

Oh, the way you describe the ex members, they're not rednecks. They just believe in reason, using your brain, and thinking for yourself.

Cleargreen deserves more than embarassment, they deserve scorn. In some cases they deserve jail terms. They abused many people, but nothing compared to the milions Castaneda harmed.

[GDSR]

Greetings EI, et al..

I'm Richard Rogers, AKA GD the current owner of SR, which has was established to be, and is manitained as, a clearing house for information about CC in the spirit of debunking him. 

My position is that his teachings are glittery mind candy, told with absurd myth.... or "lies" as we tend to call them.

SA/SR exists to argue that Carlos and his ilk are frauds.

In what is maybe a misguided sense of outreach, SR entertains what we lovingly call "naguals".... as that's what most of them call themselves. I mean folks who claim to practice the magical mysticism of St. Juan.

Some of these folks might be one string short on their banjo, if you know what I mean.

He have a regular who can control hurricanes with his mind, there's another one that has a St. Genaro styled "dreaming double"... We've had Nagualqo.. He's the nagual of a 6000 year old continuous Toltec cult, you know...

And this fellow Custodian has grandiose tales about himself that would make a rock blush.

So at any given moment... yes... I am afraid these folks are...  sadly, representative of many of the denizens of SR.... and the essential mental hygeine of the place might not be apparent to a casual reading.

It's a rough neighborhood... a virtual anarchy compared to your forum... ad hominem and off topic responses are allowed... there's very little moderating... but a lot of impassioned participation. Somehow it works.

I hope you enjoy our naguals as they come. Please feel free to distract them from SR, we have plenty, thanks.

We're also discussing your forum. Post back if you get the urge.

[custodian]

Oh, the way you describe the ex members, they're not rednecks. They just believe in reason, using your brain, and thinking for yourself.

You have not read what I wrote, accurately. I described the new owners and admins as 'rednecks'. These are not ex-members. All ex-members have left.

[Ingeborg]

Hi Richard,

welcome to NAFPS.

Greetings EI, et al..

I'm Richard Rogers, AKA GD the current owner of SR, which has was established to be, and is manitained as, a clearing house for information about CC in the spirit of debunking him. 

My position is that his teachings are glittery mind candy, told with absurd myth.... or "lies" as we tend to call them.

SA/SR exists to argue that Carlos and his ilk are frauds.

This is very interesting to read, because after what I have been reading at SR during the past days does not quite confirm this in practice.

I did a bit of reading in the German part of the SR forum. Among the latest threads seems to be an ad by one of the participants:

Shintok 03/06/07 11:49 am
"I am a practicing shaman and teacher. I am familiar with CC, although I had a teacher who had nothing to do with shamanism. I would like to offer help in which ways I can, and will also be available as a contact in mental issues and problems. Don't be shy, drop me a line."

He did not receive public replies so far. According to where the forum is situated, this entry might cause problems, as it is in part an ad for help with mental problems, and therefore illegal under German law, one reason being that apparently the person's only qualification mentioned is that he is a shame-on.

I just browsed through the latest threads, but did not see all that many arguments 'against Carlos and his ilk', however, I found much which points to the contrary:

My first encounter with CC's books
miraculix 3/26/07 3:58 am
"... I see it as an aim to do a re-orientation of D.J.s teachings.
I am not sure whether the ultimate goal is to burn from within, whether it is a desirable goal for us.
A re-orientation has to be done in any case, as there is no successor to CC.
And IMO there are a few mistakes in CC's system.
What happens when too many members of a group of warriors die, what happens when the Nagual doesn't make it (e.g. early death)...."

pro & contra
keinerfreiis 4/21/06 6:18 am
"I found this forum looking for arguments pro & contra Castaneda's literature. I am interested in gathering contributions which speak for or against a possible fiction of Don Juan Matus...."

Ianfran 4/22/06 12:24 am
"... If the true/wrong issue is the only request you got in this forum, you're dealing with irrelavancies. It would be more interesting if you described which personal experience you gathered regarding the teachings, what you understood well, or which aspects are not clear to you..."

I don't see much in the way of inviting criticism or debunking in this reply of one of the regular posters.

LiQiDHeaD 2/20/06 2:08 am
"I have been working with CC's literature for 23 years....
By the mid-90ies, I did a Tensegrity Workshop in Berlin, at which I had the priviledge to speak to Taisha Abelar and Florinda Donner-Grau, and the personal tips I received frm both were very valuable! I lived according to the rules of a warrior for 12 years..."

This is followed by a few oooohs and aaahhhhs of 'Gee, he's met the celebs', while one poster debates that the thread starter ever met TA and FDG.

GDSR: In what is maybe a misguided sense of outreach, SR entertains what we lovingly call "naguals".... as that's what most of them call themselves. I mean folks who claim to practice the magical mysticism of St. Juan.

Some of these folks might be one string short on their banjo, if you know what I mean.

I'd agree these persons might not compete for the sharpest knife in the kitchen, but on the German language part of SR, I have noticed only one poster whose contributions are critical of CC, and he seems to be getting flak quite heavily. When reading the English part, I also had the impression that you were not the most popular person there, and I suspect for the very same reason then?

So at any given moment... yes... I am afraid these folks are...  sadly, representative of many of the denizens of SR.... and the essential mental hygeine of the place might not be apparent to a casual reading.

Errm, what's the point of SR then? If any criticism and debunking becomes invisible for all the nagual BS piled up and SR comes across as a kindergarten and playground for the worshippers, the theory sounds quite nice but apparently gets overruled.

It's a rough neighborhood... a virtual anarchy compared to your forum... ad hominem and off topic responses are allowed... there's very little moderating... but a lot of impassioned participation. Somehow it works.

You mean a virtual chaos. And it doesn't seem to work out all that well from what I saw.

I hope you enjoy our naguals as they come. Please feel free to distract them from SR, we have plenty, thanks.

You fed 'em, you deal with 'em.

We're also discussing your forum. Post back if you get the urge.

Well, I noticed at least one of your participants could do with a few hours of coaching re his knowledge of the German language. Anyways, there's no discussion about NAFPS, but some persons spewing verbal injuries and wild assumptions. Errm, what urge were you talking about?