Author Topic: Sustained Reaction  (Read 39812 times)

Offline GDSR

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Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2007, 12:26:07 am »
Hello Inge!

.... just in explanation... I did wonder what that German fellow was going on about... Thanks for the interp. It's rough not speaking all those languages... The German forum tends to get cobwebs.

SR is discussing you guys... some feel you're a tad presumptuous to be judging anybody as a fraud... some think you should all be Native types... some support you entirely.. and of course, one guy thinks you're a fire engine.

It's all there... you just gotta sift through it.

I do envy your focus and control here.

It'd be tedious to defend every possible criticism of SR... and I may not have a lot of energy for it...

www.sustainedaction.org is a nigh encyclopedic source of facts about Carlos Castaneda. I refer you to the Chronologies for an encapsulated version of Carlos' story.

The chapter called "Prelude to don Juan" might be everything you'd want to know as a member of this site.

Carlos was telling people he was a shaman years before he supposedly met St. Juan.

From time to time, should folks inquire, SA is a fine source for the facts about one particular New Age fraud we have in common.

SR is focused just a little differently... more on philosophical argument that might encompass Carlos, more than on Carlos. Is it a good thing to have "Death as an advisor"? No, it's not. It's downright morbid.

It seems like a "deep" idea, if you're seventeen and have never once considered your mortality... but it's hardly a profound truth that gives you magic powers if you believe it.

But if you disagree with me there, you can go onto SR and argue your point. You can say "GD, you idiot, you're closed minded and rigid. If you just take death as your advisor (or Jesus as your savior) you will surely gain magic powers like St. Juan."

And I, or somebody will talk to you about that.

Now you guys are involved with religious fraud in a different way than SR is. You're more about commercialism and "cultural appropriation".

On SR, I wondered aloud if you did any theological verifications... Like what if you got a guy who is native, and genuine that way... but he's into UFO stuff too. Does he lose points?

Anyway...

SA/SR is a debunking site. That's all.... and for all its chaos and unseemliness, it is not ill considered.

.... except that German guy... I had no idea he was there.

 


 

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2007, 01:21:24 am »
Custodian
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Regardless, I am a strong advocate of fair play and honesty. I am also a passionate advocate for lawful abidance while maintaining vigorous debate.
Custodian
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I wish to open this post by stating that I am completely anti-censorship, except when censoring unlawful material.
I basicly agree with you , and i trust the power of simply telling the truth . However , this forum has to contend with a constant influx of new posters who have absolutely no intrest in telling the truth or in having the truth told about them .

I watched this forum for a long time before I registered and one of the things that concerned me was the editing, and what was being edited out . If you're fast you can read some of the stuff before it disappears . What I see getting taken out is repetitions of beside the point information , ridiculous accusations that there is no point in responding to because the people who make them can just make more, as soon as we do . Also  most of the verbal abuse gets edited out , though I think a bit gets left in " for the record "

It seems one of the most common tactics of these liars is to go on and on and on trying to talk at length about side issues , giving reams of information to impress people with about how great they are , and making long winded nonsensical arguements. If this wasn't edited out the sheer amount of this verbal garbage would completely overwhelm any principaled arguements . As I see it , the bare bones of people's agruments are still posted here, but people aren't being allowed to repeat a bunch of nonsense over and over and at length . 

If you understand that people who lie about who they are ,and what they know , to get attention or money or sex ,are dangerous to peoples well being , then why would a website thats job is to expose these lies and protect people and Native traditions from exploiters and liars, give them space to endlessly lie and self promote  ?

What is going on at SR is a great example of what would happen here if the moderators didn't edit .

I see many of the posters at SR completely ignore the points that are made they don't want to hear  ( though maybe the problem is too much pot smoking and no short term memory ) . I guess it is hard to spot a lie if you have no short term memory , because you can't remember the head by the time you get to the tail .

I see some of the folks posting at SR make a lot of totally false accusations about people , accusing the Europeans on this board of slithering into Sacred Ceremonies and prancing at pow wows , accusing Al of breaching nahualqo's confidentiality ,when everything that Al has said , and more , can be found posted online , and accusing us of saying nasty things about Wu Wei , when in fact none were .( i'm totally impressed Wu wei has consistantly held their ground , and stayed polite, and hasn't gone completelty insane over there ) And then those same people making all these false accusations have the audacity to critize the work we do here as lacking impecability .  ::)

I guess if people have to make stuff up that never happened,  in order to have something to discredit,  we are not doing to badly in the impeccability department .

If SR really is about getting people factual information on Castenada , it would seem it would be helpful to have a locked sticky , which listed all the alleged and proven contradictions , and abusive behavior of this guy , so people didn't have to read through reams of speculation about how some part of Casteneda's fictions might be true .  Maybe it is there somewhere , but it isn't prominent enough for someone not familiar with the site to easily find ...Or maybe I'm just dumb and overwhelmed ...  :-[



Offline educatedindian

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Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2007, 02:29:47 pm »
Richard,
It seems like the lack of standards for its members undercuts SR's purpose. It allows the bullies and the frauds to drive out the very people needing a safe place for your topic, survivors and victims.

On the other hand, the site does provide all the evidence anyone would need of the type of winged nuts that Castaneda attracts. The contempt for NDNs that many, if not most, of his followers share with Castaneda should be proof enough of the colonial attitude of the Castaneda cultists, central to their beliefs.

So unlike someone like Nahualgo, I'm not particularly concerned if Castaneda's followers speak badly of us. The manner in which some of them are doing so, such as racist harangues about all NDNs being drunks, makes them look far worse than they could ever make us look.

"some feel you're a tad presumptuous to be judging anybody as a fraud..."

That's amusing, coming from people who actually thought "recapitulation" and "Tensegrity" actually had anything to do with any Native beliefs.

The nerve of us, NDNs actually daring to say we know our own cultures!

Don't we know that only them ejumacated white anthros can do that?

"some think you should all be Native types..."

If we did that, as Nahualgo suggested, we'd be being racist.

I'd guess that this forum is maybe 70-80% Natives. The Europeans that N and others (ironically, including people who are European themselves) have complained so much about are fewer than half a dozen. They come to us for help, and they help us also.

"some support you entirely.."

They're welcome here, of course, along with anyone who actually wants to learn something.
 
"and of course, one guy thinks you're a fire engine."

This should be amusing.

Why?

"I wondered aloud if you did any theological verifications... Like what if you got a guy who is native, and genuine that way... but he's into UFO stuff too. Does he lose points?"

As in N's case, actually being Native sure does not make you a spiritual leader. I'd guess maybe 1/3 to 1/4 of exploiters actually are NDN. Once in awhile, there are even Natives with some spiritual knowledge who do wrong.

Being "into" UFOs may just make you eccentric. But peddling UFOs, for cash or to build a following, and claiming it as part of Native tradition would make you fraud.

Offline custodian

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Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2007, 05:33:43 pm »
Custodian,

You are not being honest here. You ask our opinion. My opinion is and always has been that Castaneda is as phoney as it gets. You did not ask people to join in research. You asked what we thought.

Hello again Debbie Red Bear.

I was trying to be fully honest, and if I fell short, I appologize as it was not intentional.

Yes I asked what people thought.

After reading the first expressed thought I then asked what data or evidence that opinion was based upon.

It was then that I was told about UCLA and the PHD.

Within a few minutes my research began to indicate that UCLA did not think of Castaneda as a fraud and that UCLA did not revoke the PHD.

Am I remembering this incorrectly?

Edit:I just went to the other thread and found the original exchange;

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As for me, I read his first book and gagged. I thought it ws the phoniest thing I ever read. Apparently UCLA agreed with me since they yanked his PHD because they belive it was all a fabrication.

So the first opinion expressed in response to my Castaneda investigation included a referrence to 'UCLA' as evidencial support for the opinion.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 05:40:02 pm by custodian »

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2007, 05:50:45 pm »
@GDSR

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.... just in explanation... I did wonder what that German fellow was going on about... Thanks for the interp. It's rough not speaking all those languages... The German forum tends to get cobwebs.
You're welcome re the translation.
I actually do quite a lot of this here, and research activities of known frauds and their alleged scholars over here. If the persons 'discussing' NAFPS at SR would have bothered to take a few minutes (or some minutes more) to do a bit of reading here, they'd get an impression of what we do and how it is done, instead of having to seek refuge in assumptions and verbal injuries.

 
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SR is discussing you guys... some feel you're a tad presumptuous to be judging anybody as a fraud... some think you should all be Native types... some support you entirely.. and of course, one guy thinks you're a fire engine.
Does the veil of 'non-ndns shouldn't judge ndns' get dropped now?
When I find info about a European who is offering sweats and other ceremonies for money and who braggs he has been made a bishop by a medicine man and thus was the highest *ndn representative* in Europe! - who then may be interested to stop me calling a spade an effing shovel and expose that bloke for a fraud? I see the feigned concerns about ndn sovereignty (=only ndns may judge ndns) as nothing but a firm support for frauds if and when persons tell me I should rather keep quiet than expose Europeans selling ceremonies, claiming alleged elders/medicine men for teachers and exploiting ndn cultures.

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SR is discussing you guys...
I'd like to repeat, the threads at SR are no discussion, as this would imply an exchange of points of view based on facts and in a somewhat civilized way, not on assumptions garnished with verbal attacks, name calling, and a generous helping of racism thrown in for good measurement. It is also quite revealing that some of your participants apparently fail to see (or pretend not to see) that their assumptions of Euro members of NAFPS of course 'guiding' the ndn members reflects a world view in which the indigenous would of course need and seek guidance from white persons, while white persons could not and would not accept any different role than that. What term does best describe this attitude?
A cooperation of persons of differing colours thus appears beyond their grasp, and if it is not but they simply feign the inability to understand that such cooperation might happen, these also are attitudes which merit to be called 'racist'. That Euros here might even be prepared and able to let persons do any 'judging' who know their respective cultures instead of us telling the ndns who is a fraud and who isn't thus seems so much out of bounds it never even gets mentioned and does not even fleetingly seem to touch some persons' minds. (May we call it tell-tale that some of these persons apparently have difficulties spelling 'supremacist'?)

Having spoken of basing a discussion of facts earlier on: I also notice that some of the participants apparently are prepared to twist facts, so e.g. when Blackbeardd/Barbanegra claims he was banned from NAFPS when in fact he announced he wasn't going to contribute here any longer. We all were able to notice that this apparently was to be seen as an empty threat (or probably a false promise), as he did post again, and then was asked why he thought it apt to break his earlier promise.
I'd like to add that he did not say what he now claims to have said. What he said at SR and TZ was 'f*ck the Elders'. He claimed difficulties understanding English once before, albeit elsewhere, his command of English seems quite sufficient to admin an English language forum. As far as I know Nederlands, they also have different words for 'ancestors' and 'elders', so his backpaddling to what he now prefers to have said does not hold water.

Other accusations/assumptions, like the one that Euros at NAFPS must be nuagers ourselves, are an insult not just to our intelligence, but far more an insult to the intelligence of the author. And, I am sorry having to add, so are accusations of us not being 'impeccable' (ROTFLMAO) with which the author wants us to apply a standard introduced by Castaneda, either unnoticed by himself or quite deliberately, and I don't know which of the two would be worse.

All in all, such attitudes do not enable a discussion that merits this name.

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It'd be tedious to defend every possible criticism of SR... and I may not have a lot of energy for it...
That's a bit short in the way of giving it even as much as a try.
 
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But if you disagree with me there, you can go onto SR and argue your point. You can say "GD, you idiot, you're closed minded and rigid. If you just take death as your advisor (or Jesus as your savior) you will surely gain magic powers like St. Juan."
Far be it from me to try and flatter you, but as far as I read threads at SR, there seem to be worse idiots there, and in no small numbers.

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Now you guys are involved with religious fraud in a different way than SR is. You're more about commercialism and "cultural appropriation".
Why put the term cultural appropriation in "", as if it doesn't happen?
 
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On SR, I wondered aloud if you did any theological verifications... Like what if you got a guy who is native, and genuine that way... but he's into UFO stuff too. Does he lose points?
If you mean theological verification as in criticizing a fraud for interchanging the verses of a particular song they use in comparison to the way it is done in the ndn nation this fraud claims to belong to or to have learned from: no. NAFPS does not intend to become a forum of reference where frauds will find information about the religions they exploit. There are also aspects of religions which may not be discussed in a public forum which we respect.
If you mean theological verification as in criticizing a fraud for e.g. claiming to be a member of nation X while doing ceremonies only known to nations Y and Z while not being able to speak a word of either language and conducting the ceremonies they sell in English language, plus mixing them with a bit of reiki, African rituals, 'ndn tarot cards', 'ndn astrology', and/or whatever else they came across, then: yes.

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SA/SR is a debunking site. That's all.... and for all its chaos and unseemliness, it is not ill considered.
Including the forum? What debunking is done there? (The attempts at 'debunking' the work of NAFPS won't count, since so far almost everything said about what NAFPS was is pure fiction and assumptions.)
Reading the forum, a visitor will be very hard pressed to realize it is meant to debunk 'Carlos and his ilk'. As just one example, even you who say you mean to debunk him, repeatedly speak of 'Carlos' which gives the impression of admiration and acceptance. As long as criticism and debunking is pretty much invisible, made invisible by a multitude of BS posts, SR seems to fail to live up to its own claims.

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.... except that German guy... I had no idea he was there.
Alright, we'll see what is going to happen about this one entry. That does not do anything about a few more who come across as having been written by afficionados of each and every idea published by Castaneda, and it won't change that critics will continue to get bashed there.  

Offline GDSR

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Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2007, 06:30:32 pm »
Well you guys have given me a lot to think about. Surely there is idiotic noise on SR. When I'm not just angry at it, I tell myself it's the price to pay for being a fringe topic on the internet with (something approaching) an open speech policy.

Now I think your example is more educational than your criticisms. You guys have a focused purpose here, and a nice coherent board to show for your trouble. I'm a fan that way.

Before the internet, and continuing to this very day, folks used to write Letters to the Editor on topical topics for publication in newspapers. The newspaper enjoyed total editorial control of the publication of that letter, or not, and that was free speech.

There's nothing wrong with expressing an opinion on the internet and you folks are doing it well.

SR might not ever get this clean, we do need to grant more license, as we discuss religion as a topic.. but I think we could profit by moving this direction.

Soooo I appreciate having seen your forum, and having met you, if that's what you call it on the internet.

Regards

weheli

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Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2007, 04:57:09 am »
kaioatey666   
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As we all know, Native Americans used to be known as proud and fierce warriors. They thought nothing of raiding, stealing other people's horses and wives, or scalping their enemies. In fact, raiding was a highly-regarded sport.
http://You have a brain of muster green mush and have been reading old cowboy and indian books. You know nothing of real history, you are worth only a mouth full of spit.  A SPORT, you are a pitiful human being!
And look where they find themselves now. Hiding in reservations, indulging in narcotic substances, ever afraid of going out to face the enemy or of going inside to face the enemy within. Hell, they are even afraid to meet opponents on neutral grounds.
http://What you think this is a game, who here is the enemy, I see no enemy.  you are a ga-le-gi. Who is hiding, you have a black heart and it is Sr that talks of "DRUGS". You live in a fantasy world and know nothing of what you speak!!You are a-s-ga-ha!! It would be wise to hold your ga-nv-go!
these NAFPS people are a great example of this dispiriting attitude. they only have the guts to argue on their home turf, with their own cheering crowd. when the odds are stacked: yes, my friends, NAFPS is commiting that unspeakable crime in the BBS world: editing other people's posts if they find criticisms they don;t like; trying to win a battle by depriving the opponents of their weapons. What fun is in that, tell me?
http://What battle? i see no battle, you are trying real hard to be something you are not, pretending you are in a battle with cowbys and indianseh? what you think we are going to do a war hoop and come riding out on our painted horses with war paint and tomahawks ;D ;D ;D all I can say is ni-ga(run) cuz we are surrounding them there wagons and before we are done we will BURN thm ther wagons, steal your food, scalp you and steal all thm wemen" ;D ;D

How shameful. http://I agree

How very shameful.http://I much agree

How cowardly.http://Sonny boy what one speaks aloud that is negative comes back at you and is what is in thier heart eh?

<sigh>http://u-tso-se-di!!

What happened to the proud warriors of old? http://Still here, they are all around you but you will never know who they are, cuz you know us "injuns" are very good at playing the sneak up .

I do want to say Wado for letting me see your heart, you have spoken clearly.
                                               Now I will waste no more of my time talking with you, I will now walk away.                                     Weheli












 

 

 

 

 

Laurel

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Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2007, 10:31:55 am »
How screwed up inside does one have to be to simeltaneously denigrate and elevate a race one knows nothing about?  How ironic does that mkes this little tidbit?

"...ever afraid of going out to face the enemy or of going inside to face the enemy within."

Yet he won't come over here and say that.   

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2007, 04:33:11 pm »
That is a good example of people hating us for not living up to THEIR racist stereotypes.

frederica

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Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2007, 07:08:23 pm »
Well, I wouldn't worry about it. Mostly what I've seen is people that do not respect others, have none for themselves. Makes it a personal problem. You've seen prejudice your whole life, most people just are better at hidding it. frederica

Offline ra6as

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Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2007, 01:59:22 pm »

I'm posting this simultaneously in NAFPS and in SR

Some of the reactions which people are having to each other at SR and at NAFPS are distressing

I feel sure that a grandmotherly way with people could change many things but unfortunately I am not a grandmother so I will do what I can

I suggest a discussion and I am not saying it will be easy, many things are difficult to discuss

Maybe it would be good for a while to try not mentioning Indians and Europeans but to refer to walkers (who arrived in your beautiful continent by land) and sailors (who arrived by sea)

Some people say that the walkers have much to teach the sailors about stewardship of the earth

Some people say but the walkers way has met with challenges which it cannot overcome, it is time to change

In the following speech, there is an indication of both of these points of view

Petalsharo was a great chief and a brave man known for his daring rescues (of girls from imminent sacrifice, if some accounts are to be believed)

He was also a great speaker, and in 1822 he addressed a conference in Washington at which President Monroe was present.  President Monroe had urged the chief and his people to accept the friendship of missionaries.  Petalsharo replied as follows

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Some of your good chiefs have proposed to send some of their good people among us to change our habits, to make us work and live like the white people.

I will not tell a lie ~ I am going to tell the truth ... It is too soon to send those good men among us.  We are not starving yet ~ we wish you to permit us to enjoy the chase until the game of our country is exhausted ~ until the wild animals become extinct.

Let us exhaust our present resources before you make us toil and interrupt our happiness ~ let me continue to live as I have done, and after I have passed to the good or evil spirit from off the wilderness of my present life, the subsistence of my children may become so precarious as to need and embrace the assistance of those good people.

There was a time when we did not know the whites ~ our wants were fewer then than they are now.  They were always within our control ~ we had then seen nothing which we could not get.  Before our intercourse with the whites (who have caused such destruction in our game), we could lie down and sleep, and when we awoke we would find the buffalo feeding around our camp ~ but now we are killing them for their skins, and feeding the wolves with their flesh, to make our children cry over their bones.

(Katharine C. Turner, Red Men Calling on the Great White Father, Univ Oklahoma Press, 1951)


Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2007, 08:15:42 pm »
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Maybe it would be good for a while to try not mentioning Indians and Europeans but to refer to walkers (who arrived in your beautiful continent by land) and sailors (who arrived by sea)
Like in this old joke about kids in the school bus raising hell and fighting about the white kids sitting at the front and the black kids at the back, so eventually the bus driver gets p.o.ed and tells them to stop fighting and suggests a game: 'Today, we won't be black and white, today we're all green." The kids are excited and want to play, and the bus driver says: 'Okay, so all of you go to your seats - the light green kids at the front, and the dark green kids at the back'.

It does not really matter what we call ourselves or each other - as long as racist stereotypes are being used, they can be used against Indians or walkers or whatever. It gets even harder to discuss when some of the persons participating in the - errrm: discussion make quite intense a use of racist stereotypes and refuse to see what is racist about their contributions.

Do you (meaning you, ra6as, and you, people at SR) really assume it is the ndns' task to explain to you in length and detail what is a racist stereotype and what isn't? This is in fact adding insult to injury --- I kick your azz and you tell me a) does it hurt, b) why does it hurt, nd c) how does it hurt, and unless I get these explanations, I will flatly deny I kicked you, you simply must be imagining stuff and are over-sensitive in the first place, and your azz does not and may not hurt in the slightest. I just don't tell you right now that even if and when I hear your explanations I will immediately say you're wrong. Quite apart from the fact that it has always been my right and in fact a duty to kick your azzes to keep you in place, back in the olden days, you at least knew to present your azz to have it kicked, but now you're getting uppity and complain about it. That's not how we always done it - I don't want to *change* and it is simply unfair and highly inappropriate of you to even think I should stop kickin your azz, I mean, what did I get me feet for. And I'm soo sensitive it really hurts you won't give me a broad grateful smile when I kick you, you simply don't appreciate my efforts and good will.


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Some people say that the walkers have much to teach the sailors about stewardship of the earth
And other people say that the image of ndns being the stewards of the continent or the earth is a concept not basing on facts. It is not true that the ndns kept the continent untouched for thousands of years, leaving no trace of human inhabitance whatsoever, but they formed their environment to meet their needs. The image of a race of 'stewards' not interfering with their environment serves as an excuse for taking the land as 'the ndns didn't make any use of it'.

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Some people say but the walkers way has met with challenges which it cannot overcome, it is time to change
And some people would be racist with this argument: all human cultures change and develop, and ndn cultures have been very flexible and easily took up new assets after contact.
Other people would say that the dominant culture was not right to demand of everybody to adjust to it and deny them any right to the wish to keep their own culture. Other people would also say that the dominant culture was wrong in assuming it was superior in every respect and therefore was the only one which must be allowed to exist. Other people would also say that it was wrong in the first place to force a culture onto another group, no matter whether the imposed culture was superior or not.

Your above sentence comes in a disguise: you say "the .. way has met with challenges which it cannot overcome". Do we agree that this means ndn cultures cannot cope with modern life? - because this is what it says in the part "which it cannot overcome". Sorry, but what gives you as a person or you as a people the right to judge another culture as not being able to exist in these times? Do you also go into Amish communities and tell them: you can't overcome the challenges, you're outdated, either adjust or be run over? Then some time later we will take an interest in your religion and demand to be taught by you which we will call 'sharing'; we will mimick the way you prayed and make some of us pay to pray Amish style and call this 'our right' and as mitakuye oyasin won't work, we'll even learn (well, after a fashion) to say: wir sind alle verwandt [veer zint ahlle far-vahnt].

But I degress. As there are challenges which allegedly cannot be overcome, neither "[is] it .. time to change" - a change means to adjust to something out of your own free will, to effect some adjustment but have the basis of the particular culture intact. And this is not what you are talking about above. You are presenting a world view in which the inability 'to overcome' results, from your point of view, in the necessity to *exchange* one culture for another, a superior one which will have the day anyway no matter whether one group or another tries to adapt it or not. It is not even given the chance to adjust on its own terms, and pick up what it finds useful - no, it is swallow it hook, line, and sinker, or you 'cannot overcome' - i.e. survive. Survival gets a matter of giving the dominant culture more than just a hearty welcome, survival means to kiss the dominant culture's azz and to become more domcult than the "some people" themselves. And only when this happens to the fullest degree will the "some people" be able to sleep tight, as there is no need to be reminded of those who were not able "to overcome" in the first place. And everything is alright in the best of all possible worlds. And they will live happily hereverafter.

Errrm - wait a minute, fairy tales rarely happen in reality... oh yup: the "some people" will still be lightgreen, and the others... errrm, yes, why, we will still be able to pick them out by the colour of their skin and their hair and thus be able to look down on them, discriminate them, tell them they still didn't fully adjust and there was still an awful lot to learn for them. May we call this: business as usual?

I think we can. If 'the ndn' gets uppity and doesn't know his/her place, we call them a halfbreed imitating the white man - why the %%&/ wears jeans and sneakers instead of a loincloth, and happily lives in a house equipped with a bathroom, and sits on the john instead of sh***ing behind a bush - hey, they're not ndn any longer so why are they criticizing us for playing a bit with their traditions? They don't keep their own traditions, I see this all the time, ndns even drive cars, there's no ponies - I mean, hell, they might even come along and demand an education these days. What - some of dem are profs at a university? How did that happen? See they're not trad. - One of the "some people" already accused ndns of exploiting white culture for using bathrooms or driving cars....

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In the following speech, there is an indication of both of these points of view

Petalsharo was a great chief and a brave man known for his daring rescues (of girls from imminent sacrifice, if some accounts are to be believed)

He was also a great speaker, and in 1822 he addressed a conference in Washington at which President Monroe was present.  President Monroe had urged the chief and his people to accept the friendship of missionaries.  Petalsharo replied as follows [...]
As an aside, there were two Petalasharos. (You also seem to return to chiefs, ndns, and Euros, don't you?)
The speech you quoted is not an indication of Petalasharo assuming it was time to 'change' the Pawnee culture as in abandoning it in favour of some superior culture. He simply says they will continue with their ways of life until the white majority makes this impossible by various means, they do not want to have the white way of life and religion imposed on them and will only accept it if and when there is no other choice left.
As another aside, the Pawnee did not just hunt buffaloes to feed themselves, but had fields where they grew crops. They did buffalo hunts during the summer, but this was an addition to the crops harvested from their fields. Probably Petalasharo used the buffalo as an example in his speech because he was very well aware that Monroe, same as many white persons, just 'knew' all Indians in the middle of the continent hunted buffaloes and simply employed an imagine Monroe was able to relate to, in the hope to be understood.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2007, 04:17:55 pm »
Rasas,
You appear to sincerely mean well. That makes it even more of a pity that you seem very unaware of just what it is you're saying along with the way you are saying it.

Probably without intending to, you are being condescending and showing your own lack of knowledge of Native peoples.

Really, if I went to a Jewish forum and said "Hey, let me tell you a great story about Moses that has a lesson for you all!" wouldn't that sound rather presumptuous?

Your intent (and please, I'm using the word with the meaning most people use it, not in the Castaneda cultist pseudo-heavy-meaning sense) is not clear. What is it you hope to accomplish?

A dialog between SR and NAFPS? We've already had that, and it's results were pretty clear. We admire what the owners of SR are trying to do in debunking Castaneda (whose followers tend to be more in denial than most Nuagers), just disagree with how they do it.

The many winged nuts at SR who still maintain against all evidence, reason, common sense, and any sense of respect for Native beliefs that somehow-sorta-maybe-in-some-obscure-Bill-Clintonesque "depends on what the meaning of 'is' is" Castaneda and Cleargreen could possibly not be crass racist abusive exploitative frauds, well, what can anyone do but keep sharp scissors away from them and hope they don't wander near high places?

And by the way, you do realize Natives built (and still build) boats? Obviously not. Most evidence says the Bering Strait Theory is wrong. Most Native traditions say Native people were always here, didn't have to walk here. Most traditions that say a tribe came from somewhere else says they came by boat.

As Ingeborg pointed out, what was the point of attaching silly new names?

"The walkers way cannot overcome, it is time to change"? It's rather pompous to lecture us, saying essentially "We know what's best for those helpless NDNs living in the past."

That is almost identical in meaning to Barbanegra's racist ranting, even if you dress it up with fluffy Nuage phrasing.

Again, anyone who wants to learn or ask questions or help out is welcome. But we can really do without nonNatives
arrogantly assuming we are ignorant, lost, or helpless without them, and without the patronizing attitude they kow what's best.

weheli

  • Guest
Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2007, 05:45:53 pm »
R,
I agree with Al and Ingeborg. I would like to make it clear, I post on NAFPS but I am not NAFPS. We all have our own opinions, SR you seem to want to lump us all into one big pile.


http://p222.ezboard.com/The-Sustained-Reaction-Charter-of-Rights/fsorceryfrm74.showMessage?topicID=191.topic

6. We have a right to privacy which includes a reasonable use of multiple identities and pseudonyms.

In many cases you have violated your own charter of rights. One person can have muliple identities? How does one know who is who or is kaioatey/Kaioatey666/Kaioatey1/ medicine man/mature crow ect.ect. the only one on the board with maybe 2-3 others? ??? So who is REAL and WHO is FAKE?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzJvcs1eWbA

http://www.who.is/whois-com/ip-address/kaioatey.com/

http://p104.ezboard.com/fparallelperceptionfrm39.showPrevMessage?topicID=27.topic

http://p222.ezboard.com/Longing-the-short-of-it/fsorceryfrm74.showMessage?topicID=197.topic

http://www.percivale.co.uk/castacontin/viewforum.php?f=1
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kaioatey
mature crow


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 210

 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:00    Post subject:   

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Hmmm... I pretty much agree with everyone here. On the face of it, NAFPS mission appears noble as well as useful.

The behavior of these people, on the other hand, is anything but. there is no possibility of a real discussion about who is real and who is fake, what counts for genuine spiritual seeking and learning and what is spiritual xploitation.

one might want to look at the position given by cassandra:

Quote:
it really never occurred to me before that wanting to peruse of Native American heritage may not be a given right to anyone who fancies it.


if she is right, no one but French should be allowed to sing the Marseillaise or eat foie gras. Then of course is a question of what is a true Frenchman. Does someone from Cote d'Ivoire count? Corsican? What IS the NA heritage? And why should it be more special than any other?

I started poking teh NAPFSers to give'em a taste of their own medicine. Now I see they not only desrve it, they are a nuisance to their own people.
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Seems Ms Kate Glen is all over the place.

Your reply to me( Weheli) continues to be a dancing around and a "who me", "I didn't mean that". Bottom line you are a racist!!! We do not play games on this forum which seems to be the "jest" of the ones you have been on, So NO there is no further need to my needing to post anything else, unless I receive my information back from a Hopi friend.
                                                         Weheli ;)


 
   
 

Offline ra6as

  • Posts: 12
Re: Sustained Reaction
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2007, 06:32:45 pm »
 
Thanks for the reply,

Quote
Your intent ... is not clear. What is it you hope to accomplish?

A dialog between SR and NAFPS?

I would say between Weheli and Kaioatey for now, and my intention is to suggest a more abstract basis for discussion, less about each other and more about whatever the issues may be that underlie the rift.

I simply cannot understand what has got into Kaioatey that he should insult people so,

and as I have already mentioned I believe it would be more appropriate for him to come over here ~ as invited by Weheli ~ than for her to go to SR though I say again a visit from her would be a pleasure and honour for us.

So I put forward two points of view,

"Some people say that the walkers have much to teach the sailors about stewardship of the earth"

and

"Some people say but the walkers way has met with challenges which it cannot overcome, it is time to change"

Well the latter point of view is fairly obviously Kaioatey's (and if I got that wrong then get yourself over here and change it, Kai, right?)

~ and the former point of view is the reason why he might come over here and talk about it.

Regarding some of your other points,

Quote
showing your own lack of knowledge of Native peoples.

but that is not something I would seek to hide!


Quote
Castaneda and Cleargreen [surely are] crass racist abusive exploitative frauds

as far as I've been able to find out, the argument that Castaneda and/or Cleargreen are racist has not been clearly presented anywhere; if it were so, surely someone like Vine Deloria would have made the case strongly, but the only reference I could find from him about Castaneda is this,

Quote
Jamake Highwater, Lynn Andrews and Castaneda are all of the same genre. Their writing is interesting but it has nothing to do with Indians. It’s about what what white people think Indians should be.

which falls far short of saying they are racist.  A clearer statement from someone like Vine Deloria about Castaneda's alleged racism might clarify the issue.  What has emerged so far leaves someone like me feeling that the teachings attributed to don Juan transcend racial issues.