www.saponitown.com

[VHawkins]

The forum at the aove website is great for people who have a "family story" of an Indian ancestor (usually Cherokee).

The people at the forum at the above site do REAL historic research of old documents to discover what hiappened to Indian tribes that have been declared extinct basically, east of the Appalachians, mostly in Virginia and the Carolinas, but also all the adjacent states.

vance

[nativeohio]

You would be supprised of the Many People Involved with the Saponi  Research !
I know of atleast 6 people In Ohio .

[VHawkins]

The state recogized "Occoneeche Band of Saponi Indians" of North Carolina have done a great deal of research on their relatives in Ohio. I can not speak for them but my perception is there are in Ohio people known as "Carmel Indians" whom the Occoneechee can historically document back to themselves on the NC/Va border.

The Occoneechee, Saponi, Eno, Sara (Cheraw), Monacan, and Tutelo are really like different bands of one people, and that makes it confusing. The most likely explanation (for which evidence exists) for the "Melungeons" is these are from the same eastern Siouan people. I was very skeptical at first, but there are documents to back it up. They were also called "Piedmont Catawba" as they ar related to the Catawba. The Monacan in Va is also state recognized. I have ancestors who came from the exact region these people are in today with common surnames to the Monacan.

One controversial viewpoint on the website is the "Eastern Blackfoot" tag. Supposedly there is a document "somewhere" showing after Fort Christianna (early 18th century) was closed that the Saponi there asked their name be collectively changed from "Saponi (as many at the fort were not Saponi) to "Blackfoot". There is a "Blackfoot Town" in Md and a "Blackfoot Church" in Indiana, and this corresponds to a period when all Indian people East of the Mississippi were being pushed or  migrating west. So that is the direction of the research at the present. Is this "true"? But it very definitely "could be". I just don't know. But it would explan family stories that have generally been rediculed so far. This research is being performed by people trying to find the truth and they are not trying to con anyone.

I have become convinced many Indian people in NC, Va, WVa, Oh, and Ky who say they are "Cherokee" are really descended from these Eastern Siouan peoples. They were pretty much assimilated even before the Revolutionary War. About 1730 or 40 (guesing) the Six Nations invited them to Canada (whre they are known collectively as Tutelo) and many went from NC and Va up to Canada, where they were incorporated into the Cayuga. They are there to this day. The last speaker of the Tutelo language died in Canada.

I am generally not fond of unrecognized tribes and am also skeptical of state recognized tribes, and it took a while for me to buy into all this.

These people have put a lot of work into their research.

vance

[nativeohio]

I'm Mike Walton and
I feel very Hornored that over the past 2 decades
I have Seen the Monacans grow -Visit them - Spend
time with Sam Cook who has helped in tribal history & B Lloyd there minister  And Karnne Wood story teller  I hope to be able Health permitting returning
to Bear Mountain and go to either there Pow-wow
or fall Homecoming !
The Saponi .. yes research has been a key issue
with many people .. I know all to Well I'm Saponi
Rick Haithcock is a distant cousin "We" have lot's of Roots and people in Ohio , My fathers mother was
a Collins .. Both Walton and Collins are Saponi
names  !
Another researcher is Professor Ariy Dixon of N.Y.
he has also visited Ohio many times !
It's Nice to see someone interested ! Thanks

[VHawkins]

Mike,

Howdy -- good to meet you. I live in Oklahoma and have rarely been back east. This June I am gonna travel to Virginia for the first time. I'd love to meet some of those Monacan as so many of my surnames seem to be from that region. Great grandpa was Jeff Richey. His mother was a Wayland whose anestors came from Scott Co. Va -- and were memebers of that Melungeon Church (Stoney Creek). Jeffs grandparents were John Richey and Mary Wood. Mary's parents were John Wood and Polly Dickson/Dixon. John's parents were Joseph Wood/s and Mary Hamilton. They lived in Rockbridge Co Va and before tha Albemarle Co in 1760-70. Where Monacan are found today is Rockbridge Co and Amherst Co -- and Amherst was formed from Albemarle Co. There is a Solomon Richey listed in Amherst Co. VA as a FPC -- as all these surnames are from the same area the Monacans are from, and all these surnames (Dickson, Wood, Hamilton, with Rchey's from thre as FPC and Waylands in a Melungeon community nearby) are known Monacan surnames. An "Anderson Griffith" married one of my Wayland relations, and Anderson and Griffith are both listed as Monacan surnames .

Mike, Feel free to email me personally -- vhawkins@pacer.com

Vance

[nativeohio]

Vance
took me a while to locate your reply !
Yes i'll email direct !
the nmaes you mentioned are all well
know names around Bear Mtn .
anything I can help with let me know !
i'm at >mikewalton58@yahoo.com<

[Vance_Hawkins]

Al, I need help!

I have been a moderaor at the saponiboard history forum for a couple of years, and have recently said I'd leave in protest to comments people make that the owner of the board refuses to do anthing about.

Recently in response to my decision to leave she responded by the following --

I haven't noticed a lot of posts here from people wanting "Indians" to interpret their dreams, or people bastardizing Indian spirituality. To my understanding, the difference between religion as we generally mean it, and spirituality is that spirituality is, to a large degree, mystical in its expression. In other words, a religion is dogmatic in nature, it's a collection of teachings that have been codified and the worshiper is taught, and must maintain, to the letter, at least to the extent the denomination or sect has interpreted it. Religion becomes more mystical when an individul's personal exerience or inspiration becomes more important. It's not what I'm taught by others, but what I experience, or am called to, that's the most important.

So, if by definition, Indian spirituality tends more towards the latter, it can only be so "traditional." Practicising it involves learning to pick up on, and heed direct influences sacred in nature. This emphasis tends to produce a much more tolerant religion, with more humility and tolerance towards others beliefs, as was typical on this continent at Contact. I sometimes wonder if some of the hue and cry against "New Age bastardization" of Native spirituality isn't ironically the result of the Christianization of the Natives involved, influenced by the intolerance inherent in a proseletizing, dogmatic system of belief.

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=15652#post15652

In this response she is leading people astray I fear, and people who are low blood quantum of a tribe that pretty much dissapeared from history are being turned into new age "do your own thing" proponets that the Piedmont Siouan never were in the past, and will be teaching others this is the way Indian people do things.

She would listen to any Western Siouan people who respond I think. Some say Catawba and Saponi only emigrated ast about 1500 or so. some have said Santee were in SC and returned west later but I don't really know if that is so or not.

I will probably leave that group now, but I hope something might yet be salvaged. I don't think they are beyond all hope as they are really excellent in all other ways. I don't know what else to do, tho.

thanks --

vance

[Vance_Hawkins]

Maybe it wasn't that big a deal, I don't know.  People from the site tell me it wasn't. But I had hoped to help these people steer away from silliness spirituality talk, and I guess I was the only one there opposed to a "make up your own religion" attitude.

It was more a little here and there than any one thing, but it might grow now that people there realize the site owner sees no fault in it.

Perhaps I did all I need to do in making my protest by leaving the group.

I won't go back there to post.

vance

[educatedindian]

I could still write something up for you if you want Vance. Let me know.

[Vance_Hawkins]

Well, if you'd like to do that, I'd appreciate it very much. They are basically good people, don't sell ceremonies, are searching for a heritage. One person wrote there that the NAFPS website seemed to be on a witch hunt. I got emotional and decided to leave the group shortly after that. The owner of the site prtty much gave me a little tongue lashing after that -- nothing that big. Before that I really respected her a great deal.

Again, they make a big deal of the Saponi, Tutelo, Occoneechee, Monacan, as being speakers of a Siouan language abnd feel there are close ties to South Dakota. I am not as certain those ties are all that close, tho, but I really don't know. For all I know they might have separated 2,000 years ago, or maybe just 4 or 5 hundred years ago. There was a band of them called Santee in South Carolina and some members said it was the same people as the Santee in Minnesota or Nebraska -- but after looking for a link betwen the two I never found it.

The Six Nations adopted some (I read that they called all Piedmont Siouan tribes -- even th Catawba -- by the name Tutero (or something very similar) -- specifically it was the Cayuga i think that adopted them).  Some are undoubtedly  presently with the Catawba as theyre are historic records of them always going back and forth between their own lands in the Southern Appalachians and closer to the Atlantic in NC and Va to live with the Catawba . There are several state recognized groups in NC and Va (Hawila-Saponi, Occoneechee band of Saponi, are recognized in NC and Monacan are recognized in Va.). o be state recognized in NC and Va means something as their standards are not easily met. This website is run by people who are not state recognized, but specific members of state recognized groups recognize them as being of Saponi/Tutelo/Monacan heritage based on genealogy.

They need to know NAFPS is NOT a witch-hunt group, but sincerely seek to help peple like these low blood quantum groups such as the Saponi. People -- especially those who know nothing of their heritage go there and hear her say Indian people pretty much had a "do your own thing" religion might foster future self proclaimed Shaman. Someone just learning about the heritage of a great great grandpa today might be calling themselves "a Saponi Shaman" 10 years down the road -- thre are a couple of posters that might be heading that way now I fear, you can tell by a budding "I know it all" attitude growing -- but that is rare and most are not like that. That's what I was thinking of when I took every opportunity to redirect people who made comments that seemed inappropriate. I guess Linda, site owner, took exception to it. I've met here and basically like her as a person -- but in this area she is mistaken.

I got a little hot in my last post so I'm staying away as I have already ogne further than I wanted to.

I'd appreciate it if you also educated them about the purpose and goals of NAFPS.

Thanks.

vance

[educatedindian]

*New note-DISPUTE RESOLVED. Thanks to Linda and Scott for their gracious apologies.*

Here's my response for them Vance. Please repost both of these posts:

Hello, my name is Dr. Al Carroll. I'm a historian who teaches for the Alamo Community College District. My heritage is Mescalero Apache, mixedblood, also Mexican and Irish.
Vance passed along to me some of the discussion you were having at your group and I'd like to clear up some misconceptions and outright lies that are being spread about us over at NAFPS.

Someone very ignorantly used the term "witch hunt". My guess is they've never faced prejudice in their life or they wouldn't so casually claim that protecting people from being misled, defrauded, lied to, and even raped or having their child molested by imposters posing as Native elders, somehow is the same as mass murder done in the name of religion.

I wish that person had not been too lazy to even bother reading our mission statement:
http://www.newagefraud.org/about.html
New Age Frauds & Plastic Shamans or NAFPS is an activist group of Native people and our supporters....
Ths site and forum is for those concerned about the fraud, deceit, money hunger, sexual abuse, racism, control, hunger for power and ego, and cult-like tendencies of the New Age movement and pseudo "shamans." We investigate and seek to warn the public about impostors and exploiters posing as Native medicine people or elders. There are more than two hundred impostors out there posing as Cherokee medicine people alone. Multiply that by five hundred Native nations in the US, and add on the exploiters who abuse or lie about practices of Latin America's Indians, and you get an idea of the sheer, massive scope of the problem.
What NAFPS Is and Is Not
We are not a "hate" group, any more than a rape crisis center promotes "hate" of men. This is one of the more ridiculous knee-jerk claims thrown at us. Many Nuage frauds are themselves blatantly racist in their contempt for Native people, beliefs, and wishes on these issues.
If anything we are an ANTI-hate group, a HateWatch group specializing in monitoring and warning the public about a special brand of racist, the Nuage fraud or pseudo-shaman leader.
We are not especially concerned about anyone's blood quantum, enrollment status, or family history. The only time we would care was if someone had lied in order to "pass" or appear "more Indian" to justify their misbehavior.
We accept all kinds of people: Native, white, black, Latino, Maori, traditionalist, Christian, pagan, atheist, Muslim, etc. We have members from an amazing variety of tribal backgrounds, Anishinaabe, Apache, Cherokee, Choctaw, Lakota, Lenni Lenape, Menominee, Munsee, Navajo, O'odham, and many others.
We at NAFPS make no claim to perfection. But... we do research the information we put out.
We seek to *prevent* harm to people, not cause it.... except to frauds, who we merely wish to bankrupt, drive out of business, or see thrown in jail for some of the worst abuses.
That means we take great care with our warnings and pronouncements. We *do* retract or alter them if new information comes out, or if we inadvertently harm people.
We feel free to disagree among ourselves. No one is punished for simple dissent....
And this gets down to the final point, again worth repeating: We are not a "hate" group, but are about as ANTI racist as can be.
Welcome to NAFPS. Feel free to join our forum and ask questions or comment.
We gladly accept help from all good people of conscience, because without them we can't stop these frauds. And without them, we wouldn't have had nearly as much success against frauds as we have."

[educatedindian]

Pt 2
There was also another post wherein someone recited the usual romanticized Nuage nonsense. I think this person is, perhaps unwittingly, a perfect example of the dangers that the Nuage movement poses to Native people, especially those that were not raised in Native cultures. This person seems to have only learned Nuage ideas about Native beliefs rather than anything close to the truth. It's worth responding to that post point by point:

"To my understanding, the difference between religion as we generally mean it, and spirituality is that spirituality is, to a large degree, mystical in its expression."

Nonsense. One can be a member of an organized religion and be mystical as well. Almost any of the Catholic, Buddhist, or Santeria saints are good examples of that.

"In other words, a religion is dogmatic in nature, it's a collection of teachings that have been codified and the worshiper is taught, and must maintain, to the letter, at least to the extent the denomination or sect has interpreted it. Religion becomes more mystical when an individul's personal exerience or inspiration becomes more important. It's not what I'm taught by others, but what I experience, or am called to, that's the most important."

Also some pretty silly nonsense. In every Native tradition I know of, just your "experience" counts for very little. If a spirit calls you, that's not enough. After all, many spirits lie. Many spirits deceive. Many are downright evil. That's why you should consult elders. Otherwise your "experience" might actually be something to avoid. For that matter, it could be a sign you need counseling, not just spiritual but also psychological. There are far too many Nuage types claiming "spirit told me to" who frankly need a shrink.

Also, you seems to suggest a belief in anti-Christian bias, assuming that organized religion is somehow evil by nature.

Many Natives are Christian as well as traditional, and find no contradiction in the two.

There's also another problem with your claim which suggests you haven't been around Native people that much:

*Most Native Traditions Are Organized Religions.*

They have priesthoods and dogmas, and there's nothing wrong with either. ?

"So, if by definition, Indian spirituality tends more towards the latter, it can only be so "traditional."
Practicising it involves learning to pick up on, and heed direct influences sacred in nature."

Sorry, but that is frankly just so much Nuage gibberish, nothing close to any Native traditions.

Again, in every Native tradition out there, you need the counsel of elders, priests, or medicine people.

It's not only foolish to try and "experience" your way around forces as powerful as there are in nature, it's downright dangerous.

"I sometimes wonder if some of the hue and cry against "New Age bastardization" of Native spirituality isn't ironically the result of the Christianization of the Natives involved, influenced by the intolerance inherent in a proseletizing, dogmatic system of belief."

That tells me you don't know much about the issue at all. It's precisely the strongest traditionalists who are most opposed to Nuage exploitation, racism, and cultural imperialism, people like Arvol Looking Horse, Wendy Rose, etc. The Christian Indians aren't nearly so much caught up in this issue.

And here you seem to become outright bigoted. If all Christians are intolerant, how do you explain Martin Luther King? How do you explain the Abolitionists, Father Bartolome De Las Casas, Liberation Theology, the Peace Movement, ? hundreds of millions of Christians who don't fit your bigoted image of them?

I hope you can someday truly become as tolerant as you fantasize you are.
I also hope instead of falling for Nuage fantasies you turn to your elders instead.
After all, without our elders, Native traditions die. This is how Native traditions are TRULY passed on, not by "your own experience".

I invite everyone concerned about this issue to come to NAFPS.
http://www.newagefraud.org
We welcome everyone, even and especially those who have much to learn.
Dr. Al Carroll
Alamo Community College District

[Vance_Hawkins]

Al the entire thread where this was discussed has dissapeared and my password no longer works.

hmmm . . . I guess I'll have to create a new identity to make the post . . . it might not stay up long, but we'll see. I guess she doesn't seem to want to be percieved of as wrong.

vance

[Vance_Hawkins]

I sent it directly to Linda since she wrote it. Thanks, Al -- I appreciate it.

[Vance_Hawkins]

Al, here is what the person said who attacked nafps -- "with hunt" might have my words.

I did sent your response to the person who wrote the material you are referriing to

From "Collins": [there are good "Collins" people there as well as this person]

"What I don't understand is who gives any of these people the authority to think they are the judges and jury on other groups that may be seeking out their heritage and exercising their right to self-determine and religous freedom?

Don't these people that do this realize that is why so many Native descended people do not like to talk about their Native heritage?

Why say you have Indian blood when there are people out there so eager to attack you for claiming who you are?

For along time Indians were hated. Now that there seems to be some respect and admiration for Native people and their culture some few want to tell others that they are not allowed to do this or that. That they are not allowed "to exapropriate" someone elses culture. What does that mean exactly? and who made them culture police?

If someone wants to run around wearing war bonnets and smoking God knows what in peace pipes why is that anyones business except the persons doing that?

If there are people out there that are mixing Native, Euro, and Eastern philosophies/traditions whose business is it to rail against them for exercising their freedoms of religion and association?

Why is it so necessary to pour negative attention on groups that may or may not have a legitimate claim to what their doing?

If they are legite then they will stand the test of time and gather the evidence to show to the skeptics.

Either way if someone or group does something you don't like then don't get involved with them.

==================== end of quote ------------

I believe I was the only person at the time that  spoke up about this comment and this is what prompted me to write in my resignation as moderator, after which I was banned from commenting at all -- I expected others to stand up as well and none did.

Having said that -- I will defend the group as many people there are good people and I still respect them, no matter how they feel about me. They have tried to earn respect with others in that region of the country and have earned some degree of respect.

So I am emotionally torn really.  I believe they are probably having an internal debate over this issue as we speak. Before going further here on this topic it will be best to see how that internal battle gets resolved. In my last comments there I invited them here to this site but none have chosen to do so.

vance