Mary Thunder/Blue Star Church

[Autumn]

There have been a number of frauds who have snuck into some of the UN-related Indigenous meetings, gotten their photo taken, then used it in their promo materials. I don't know what the screening and security process is, but some of these incidents were just frauds in regalia posing on the street next to actual delegates. I don't know if any of the frauds have gotten onto the actual committees and caucuses, but I think at least one or two of them might have. This is also getting worse with some newagers and neopagans trying to misappropriate the word, "indigenous" or "indigeneity" - thinking that if they are into any kind of (what they believe to be) earth-based and/or ancestrally-inspired new religious movement that they can now claim to be Indigenous People. It's sneaky and dangerous and I think we need to keep an eye on anyone who is trying that.

As for the Dalai Llama... basically anyone who has the means to travel and the stamina to wait in line for a few hours can meet him. He will visit pretty much any sizable religious event that is dedicated to peace. He regularly "meets" with thousands of people at once. If anyone who has briefly met him at one of these things thinks that means they're special, they're missing the entire point of what he does. AND... he may be the head of his Buddhist lineage, but that doesn't mean he knows anything about spotting NDN frauds. As he's dedicated to responding with peace and compassion to even the most messed-up individuals, he would probably smile and welcome people even if he knows they are frauds.

That is so sad.  They need to screen them more carefully.  It would help to, at least, do a Google search on them.  As to the Dalai Lama, I couldn't agree more.  He travels extensively and meets thousands upon thousands of people and is photographed with many, many people.  He is always smiling in all photographs and that gives the frauds the credence they crave.

Wow, I have heard of this Mary Thunder. My wife was seeing a counselor for PTSD after the tragic death of her brother. Dr. Carolyn Ball who lives in Myrtle Beach suggested my wife seek out the services of this lady who ran a healing ranch in Texas. Mary Thunder Grace. This is that person, Ms. Ball claims to have danced the Sundance with Mary Thunder for 4 years. Knowing what I do of Native ceremony, things did not add up and so it was never per-sued Thank Goodness. I was able to convince my wife to seek another counselor due to some of the stories I was hearing about Mary Thunder.Dr. Ball is a huge fan. Then came along Roy Spotted Eagle Glass who I did believe and was suckered into anyway. Healing ceremonies and all the other rubbish. Guess it was a lesson I had to learn anyway. But at least I did not travel to Texas.

Thank goodness for that.  I have relatives in Texas and and have met people from Texas and they always say that "everything is big in Texas."  I wonder how many people Mary Thunder has messed up in her lifetime? 

[Epiphany]

I bought a used copy of "Thunder's Grace, Walking the Road of Visions with My Lakota Grandmother" by Mary Elizabeth Thunder so I could skim through and see if there's anything useful to add here.

Some gleanings:

Book has glowing intro by Twylah Nitsch (info on Twylah http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=688.msg34423#msg34423 )

Vikki Redd Ghost Horse (Buck Ghost Horse's wife) did transcriptions for book.

Mary claims that Leonard Crow Dog introduced her to people as "This is my niece and she is a Sundancer" and that he gave her the name Thunder. She says she learned most everything from Leonard Crow Dog, Grace Spotted Eagle, Wallace Black Elk, Rolling Thunder.

Her second husband is Jeffery "White Horse" Hubbell. She's raised her children in this Nuage world.

Her book is like a Nuage Factory - churning out pseudo ceremonies with lots of name dropping and false teachings.

[Mahekun]

Amusing note, I misread the subject as Blue Star Crunch. Sounds like a cereal. Now I'm hungry.

[Autumn]

Amusing note, I misread the subject as Blue Star Crunch. Sounds like a cereal. Now I'm hungry.

Hah!  That is funny!  Mary is sort of like a cereal, but I think she is more like Fruit Loops.

[debbieredbear]

Yes, Fruit Loops is a good description. A friend was asked to escort her around our village. The friend asked me and another woman to go with her. Mary decided that the third woman and I were wife and wife, even though we are both straight. She "intuited" this. She had a group of other flakeys woth her.

[White Woman]

Heard something very interesting the other day from on of Mary Thunders' ministers...yes I know some of those characters but am not a part of their group.  Anyway...this minister told me that Grandma Twylah claimed to be from Orion and Wallace Black Elk claimed to be from Pleiades (sp?) and could trace back their origins several generations.  Has anyone heard this BS before?  I didn't know what to say except: "Wow."
By the way...the Blue Star Church now has some land in Arkansas...lucky us!

[debbieredbear]

I haven't heard it either, but, WOW is right.

[Defend the Sacred]

When I met Twyla in 1984 she claimed to be Seneca and Scottish-American. She told me she was sent away to boarding school as a young girl, and only went back to live among the Seneca when she was older. She was already in with some frauds when I met her, and her self-published booklets from that time are full of nuage platitudes and stuff she seems to have just made up; they don't resemble any Seneca ways that I know of.

A few years later she got kicked out of her community for selling fake tribal memberships and enabling frauds like Jamie Sams and Lynn Andrews. I would not be surprised to hear she had said all kinds of weird things later in her life. She changed so quickly, and so badly, in such a short period of time. When I met her she seemed like a sweet old lady, and relatively harmless, but the things I heard later... EEEK.  Now, we have hundreds (thousands?) of frauds that she encouraged and sheltered and led into exploitation. It's really horrible and sad. I feel really sorry for her relatives; the ones I met seemed like really nice people. (Note, these were young Seneca people from her community, NOT any of the creeps who jumped on the fraud train with her. Her fraud crew looks to me to be entirely non-Native.)

[White Woman]

Is anyone familiar with the Sundance?  Mary Thunder has it every year at her ranch in Texas and someone told me that it is an ancient ceremony.  What I have heard of it...it sounds much like the Desert Fathers.  I have seen a couple of people with horrific scars on their upper arms from having some kind of hooks placed in them as part of the ceremony...doesn't sound like anything I would EVER want to be a part of.

[Defend the Sacred]

Is anyone familiar with the Sundance?  Mary Thunder has it every year at her ranch in Texas and someone told me that it is an ancient ceremony.  What I have heard of it...it sounds much like the Desert Fathers.  I have seen a couple of people with horrific scars on their upper arms from having some kind of hooks placed in them as part of the ceremony...doesn't sound like anything I would EVER want to be a part of.

What Mary Grimes, aka "Mary Thunder" runs is not a legitimate ceremony.

There are many people on this forum who are from traditional, Native communities who have real Sundances. However, traditional people will probably not tell you very much about what really goes on. The Sundance is not for non-Natives, though there are plenty of frauds who run fake ones. The fakes are harmful and people should stay far away unless they're going there to stop it.

[White Woman]

What Mary Grimes, aka "Mary Thunder" runs is not a legitimate ceremony.

There are many people on this forum who are from traditional, Native communities who have real Sundances. However, traditional people will probably not tell you very much about what really goes on. The Sundance is not for non-Natives, though there are plenty of frauds who run fake ones. The fakes are harmful and people should stay far away unless they're going there to stop it.


Thank you Kathryn for your reply.  As you can tell from my screen name....I am a non-Native woman.  I did some reading on Native Spirituality many years ago and spoke with another  "white woman" who had taken her reading and study much further...decided at that time that I respected the Native Americans too much to "dabble" in their sacred traditions...that I had my won sacred traditions that have suited me to a "T".  But whenever I hear someone talk about the Sundance at Thunder Ranch and what a sacred tradition it is my teeth grit and my stomach knots and my heart of heart tells me that they are bastardizing something very sacred...and that is just not right!

[Epiphany]

Thank you Kathryn for your reply.  As you can tell from my screen name....I am a non-Native woman.  I did some reading on Native Spirituality many years ago and spoke with another  "white woman" who had taken her reading and study much further...decided at that time that I respected the Native Americans too much to "dabble" in their sacred traditions...that I had my won sacred traditions that have suited me to a "T".  But whenever I hear someone talk about the Sundance at Thunder Ranch and what a sacred tradition it is my teeth grit and my stomach knots and my heart of heart tells me that they are bastardizing something very sacred...and that is just not right!

As a white woman who is not NDN, who is an outsider, I agree with you. What Mary Grimes is doing is absolutely not right.

[I might belong here]

What I don't understand is have anyone noticed these people always seemed to have studied counselling? Frauds I mean. Not saying everyone is a fraud that studies it but I've noticed that this is a subject 99% of them tend to go for

[earthw7]

how else can they fool people, they look for those broken people who would believe anything they said

[Cetan]

I just read that Mary Thunder passed away today