THOMAS LIGHTNING BOLT INTERVIEW

[Ingeborg]

Fool Crow was also of the Baha'i Faith.  What does that make him?  A muslim.

In fact it does not in the least. It makes him a Baha'i.
But certainly you can speak with more authority on ndn religious beliefs than you can about Muslims or Baha'is.

[educatedindian]

Marlon, I really wish you could stay on topic. This thread has wandered off topic so many times already. I've split the Dupree topic off yesterday, and more off on her today.

I was tempted to split off all the general "what makes someone a fraud" questions, but didn't. What I'd like to ask is that you take a look through some of the older topics. Most of what you're asking has been addressed under the Etc section many, many times.

For that matter some of if what addressed in the welcome message and Who We Are section before you even get to the forum. Some is also addressed in the stickies at the topic of each section.

For now let's try and keep this thread strictly on TLB.

And in the future, please have him or anyone else wanting to respond actually come here (unless they don't have net access) instead of passing along messages on their behalf. The "I'm too spiritual to respond to this" stance of TLB is a pretty common tactic of many exploiters, except that he undercut himself by throwing a fit while doing it.

[Marlon]

Hi Al,

Ok good point. Maybe wise to also open up another topic or two. I will give this more thought.

Im still very busy on other matters, so can not spend too much time on this but may address what you guys do on my site. will look into your book at some point.

[Skully]

Hi Al,

Ok good point. Maybe wise to also open up another topic or two. I will give this more thought.

Im still very busy on other matters, so can not spend too much time on this but may address what you guys do on my site. will look into your book at some point.

Screw all the niceties. L-Bolt is a friggin' fraud, plain and simple.

[Johnnie]

Folks,

Just a note to inject into this debate.  The books mentioned (John Fire, Archie Fire's, Black Elk and Wallace) are "as told to" books.  By their very nature they undergo a double edit before they even reach the point of being words on a page.  The first and most important edit is the exchange between the teller and listener.  There are not just questions, but the "right questions" which are being asked by the interviewer.  As the subject responds, he is editing the information to be given to the outsider. 

While I did not know the old Black Elk, I did know John and Archie, and Wallace, very well.   I know that there is a big difference between what is written and what is experienced first hand.  Many times I rode in the car with Archie going somewhere where we talked and talked, and the conversations with him were a constant series of jokes, puns, and leg-pulling.

I also recall years ago being at a dinner dance (small powwow) where John Fire walked in.  In his back pockets were two half pints (he didnt drink) and on his arms were two young blond wasichu women (he was prolly too old to do much).  The point of that little demonstration was to rile up folks with over the top behaviour.

Our ways were communicated through oral tradition.  Which means "face to face."   Hold onto that thought.

The second edit mentioned is the one where the listener puts down on the page what the subject says.  A good "as told to" writer willl tell you the motive he or she has in editing the conversation from heard to written.  Neihardt did not do that.  The others did not do that either.   To move from the intracacies of conversation to the written page is to try to describe to someone blind from birth the vision of a night sky on the prairie.

That said, to conclude anything from a book about or "as told to" from one of these folks is to attempt the impossible.

Thanks for listening.

Johnnie

[sapa]

Hi All,
I have thought about this for awhile now and hope I have made the right decision. This is intended to help Marlon understand. My father-in-law is a old lakota man. He was born in a tipi along the Grand River, perhaps one of the last to be so. He has danced in Green Grass with cousin Stanley. He has spent his life helping the oyate in whatever they needed.He has been a pipe carrier for more than forty years. I have seen him do some very incredible things with my own eyes. He walks in the old way. He is a quite, soft spoken man, rarely gets riled, is compassinate and wise enough to let you make your own mistakes ie walk your own path. He lives in tribal housing and survives on $388.00 per month from VA. My husabnd is the eldest son and so made the decision many years ago to work outside the rez to help support the family. We are nearing retirement age and will probably return soon to live out our days. The people of our community recognise Ate as a medicine person. He has never said or even intimated such a thing. He never wrote a book, or recorded any music especially sacred songs because he feels those are gifts that can only be shared in the old way. My mother-in-law (now gone but a gifted woman in her own right) used to say if you hear a song once and dont "get it" then its not for you. We do not speak of the sacred casually. We do not share or brag about our spiritual helpers. There are ramifications for such things. We absolutely do not charge for anything spiritual in nature although we have been known to sell our quilts or bead work. We are unsheka (poor) in material things. However if someone is in need then you help and do without yourself if need be. This is the way of the old ones. We pray with the cannupa or canli, we hope that Tunkashila remembers us and that when our days are done we can return to the stars with all our relatives. Do we make mistakes, you bet. We are humans trying to be human beings. These are the things that suggest you are dealing with a true spiritual person, not a bunch of self promotion. We lakota tend to look the other way when one of our own is doing something that might not be right because we know without a doubt that the spirits will provide a correction for the problem. Sometimes that price is very high. There are occassions however when our outrage takes over and we step in. Even then a talking too is usually the action unless things continue to such a point that disbandment is warranted. In our compassion we try to warn others for their own protection hence this board and others like it. There is a modern saying that if you play with the spirits you might get burned. We hope to prevent that. If people really want to learn these old ways there is no quick way. It takes a lifetime and then some.I see that I have gone to rambling so I will end now...that is all I have to say.....sapa

[Moma_porcupine]

Jonnie and Sapa , it is so good to hear your voices here . There is so much confusion . I think people like you , sharing some of your cultural understanding really helps . It is really appreciated . Thanks   

[Johnnie]

Marlon.

I read the interview and materials on this Lightning Bolt character and actually do not have a problem with his music, it is his story that is full of holes.  I am suspicious of anyone who suddenly takes an "Indian name" that is in Engiish, ie "Lightning Bolt."  My Indian names are in nishnabe podwewadmi mowen, not English.  Translating them into English loses their power.  By using such an English name he is pandering to non-Indians and their stereotypes about who we are.

The second thing are the timelines.  The interview is confusing as to when exactly he was with Fool's Crow.  He would have had to have been a teenager, or went there when he was older and Fools Crow was near death.  So, Fools' Crow takes on a stranger with no or barely credible tribal ties when he was so elderly as to need constant assistance? 

If he had a mentor who was northern California, what tribe?  Again, why apprentice someone whose tribal affiliation is questionable at best and not one of your own tribe at worst?  And, why talk about the guy at all?  This Lightning Bolt character is simply too young to have experienced all the things he says he has done.  And, as others point out, he is talking about things that should not be talked about at all, and certainly not with people from magazines or on the internet.

He has the right to play music, adapt musical themes from Native American music, and play guitar with his feet if he wants.  What he does not need to do is make up a whole bunch of stuff about these folks in order to sell records. 

My guess is he is not who he says he is and is surfing the net in order to further weave a story that only non-Indians will believe.  As you can already tell, real Indian people are rolling their eyes the moment he sticks out his hand and calls himself Lightning Bolt.  He is losing credibility for his potential audience, not gaining.

Tell him to think about the BS and either stop, or tell the truth.  I suspect the truth is he is a non-Indian whose vision was in the movie theatre watching Pocahantas.  If he has real talent, he will sell CD's.  And he will sell more among Indian people if he tells the truth.

Johnnie

[educatedindian]

"Marlon" is none other than John Lekay of Heyoka "magazine". Just to let you know Johnnie, anyone who criticizes him gets demonized by Lekay. In fact, even people who've never done anything to him, just because he confuses them with someone else, he tries to get their names dragged through the mud.

Or at least that's what he tries to do. So far his smear campaigns have all fallen flat, even backfired and helped out those of us he tried to "take down."

Just want to let you and Sapa know what to expect.

[Johnnie]

Ed Ind,

Wow, I went over to Heyoka and read that interview with Robin.  You guys "assaulted" her?  And it is a wonder you can even wear a hat with them horns sticking up so far.

Here is my take on this whole thing.  It is not a matter of "if" Native Religions get loose in the New Age, it is how much.  Seventy percent of the world's crops are Native origin.  Like Italian food?  Tomatoes from the New World are a main ingredient.  And so on.

There are two issues to resolve in this New Religion loosely called Nuage Native religion.  The liturgy and the priesthood.  Since I have visited many of these new age "priests" I think my observations have some value.  The liturgy they use is mostly Lakota; Sundance and Sweats are both dependent on the liturgy (songs and prayers and sequence).  And thus the Lakota are the ones who should be asked or credited at the very least.  As a Potawatomi, I don't really have a dog in that fight.

As for the priesthood, that is where I do have something to say.  It is impossible to be a Lakota "medicine man" and not be Lakota.  And moreover, with all the problems and needs of the Lakota people, why are they (if they are in fact Lakota) traveling the world with ceremonies for other people?  The greatest need for Lakota ceremonies is among the Lakota themselves.

Personally, I feel that the genie is out of the bottle and there is no way to put the ceremonies back.  To quote a great poem by Acoma poet/writer Leslie Silko, "it is already loose, It is coming, is can't be called back." 

It may in fact have a tempering influence on the world in general and if Native people can forsake their native ways for Christianity, then why cannot the Christians forsake their heritage for Native ways?  In fact, many of the ones among Indians most upset about Nuage/Native religious practitioners are those who have been Christianized.  Oh, they may in fact "powwow" but even that started as a response to the outlawing of religious ceremonies by Christian activists and government officials in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries; specifically and ironically by Buffalo Bill and Pawnee Bill's Wild West shows.  In fact, for some Indians who are urbanized the only ceremony they do is the powwow.  And the exclusion they practice there is transferred to other aspects of religion where they themselves do not tread.

That said, my concern is that many of the ceremonies being leaked out to the Nuagers are not only physically dangerous, but dangerous in the spiritual realm as well.  As my mom used to say, "these chemoks (white people) have no business doing something that will kill them."  How many times have we seen Nuagers advertise vision quests "all meals provided"?  In short, if they are going to steal the ceremony, why not do it right?  An analogy would be the thief who not only takes my gun, but uses it to shoot someone.  I may not care if he took it to feed his family as I used it, but stealing to kill or die is a double crime.

As for Marlon/Lekay?  He will need to get in line to diss me.  And if I read his magazine right, he and I are not too far apart, at least in this life.  But likely he was raised a Christian and so he will go to hell while I will be in Chibiabosnek.

Just some thoughts.

Johnnie

[sapa]

Thank you for the warning educated indian but I doubt theres much fun in going after me. I did not attack anyone just offered a few words of insight and I am to old/tired to get dragged into a dog fight over the words I shared. I have no marketability, no wealth, no status or standing, in fact, if it werent for the lifes I have touched along the way no one would even no I had been here.
sapa

[steve_w]

Sapa

i just joined nafps recentlty and noticed alot of personal attacks myself. this isn't how this site is run is it? if so then maybe i am in the wrong place. i understand we must get rid of frauds but this must be done with some sense of respect for the person who is under attack. thank you

[Johnnie]

Steve W.

You were addressing Sapa and as far as I can see, he is quite capable of answering your question.  I can only speak for myself and what I have experienced.  For years I lived in Oklahoma and Arizona, even California.  This was not an issue until recently for me.  Moving to Indiana I found that people who claim Indian blood but were not, were the principle people deciding Indian issues.

As an example, they cared not about health care, or child care, or employment for Indians.  They don't care about substance abuse programs.  What they do care about are feathers and rituals designed to put them in touch with the spirits.  All well and good, but when you can't feed your kids and a job or social services will help, spirits are kind of far down the list.

They tend not to care about eductation and if they do, it is cosmic education.  All well  and good, but we Indian Education programs that will provide tutoring in math and English, not teaching kids how to make paper headdresses and share turkey and trimmings once a year.

Personal attacks?  These folks have to be named openly, otherwise, how would anyone know who is or is not?

I knew a guy in Arizona who charged 75 dollars per sweat, and four hundred for a weekend vision quest.  So, like Typhoid Mary this guy was sowing seeds from his idiocy throughout the Southwest and even into the East.

So, X person goes through the vision quest and goes back to New York and when the local Indians start agitating about tax issues and reservation sovereignty, Person X stands up and says "what is really important is getting in touch with your spirit."  And the whole audience applauds and tax issues and sovereignty takes a back seat to cosmic beams from outer space.

Get the picture? 

What else would you have us do?  Wring our hands and hope this crap will go away?

Or out these men and women?

Real Indian writers can't get a break because if they write about the true experience of being Indian, it ain't really true unless they have been in touch with UFO's, Sisterhoods of the Shield, or Don Juan and a pocketful of Peyote.

Get the Picture?

Like I said, living in Oklahoma I didn't care diddly squat about this cause if someone came along and started being all cosmic, he or she was laughed out of the Indian world.  Here, east of Mississippi and among places where Indians are totally marginalized, it does matter.   I know Indian kids who need shoes and tutoring and cause their names are not Jimmy Lightning Bolt, or Mary Summer Rain, they ain't really Indians. 

Think about it Stevie.  You come up with a better way of getting liars to stop lying, and I am for it. 

Johnnie

[educatedindian]

Steve, if you'll notice, it is the frauds and exploiters who made all the personal attacks. Marlon/John Lekay, for example, an Englishman who appointed himself an expert on NDNs, who compares any NDN who disagrees with spiritual exploitation to mass murderers.

All that we say, for example, are facts such as:

This is person is claiming to be a medicine man when he is not.
This person is not acting as traditions say an elder should act.
This person charges for ceremonies when that is wrong according to tradition.
This person is claiming a ceremony or belief is Native when it isn't.

I don't see how any of those could be considered "personal attacks."

In fact, one of the most common complaints by exploiters and their supporters such as John Lekay has been that we do NOT allow them to engage in personal attacks as much as they want to.

[steve_w]

Educatedindian

i acutally met thomas once at a pow-wow, he seemed like an ok indian to me, i could never understand why indians attack each other. sometimes it make me ashamed. Educatedindian i think what you and others here are doing is fine and dandy however it gets really ugly at times, could you tone down the hate a bit. thank you.