Jimmy La Vallee & Spiritual Warrior Vision

[educatedindian]

I know some people in psych from the cult recovery groups. I'll ask their professional opinion of him. (And no, I'm not implying he's involved in any cults.)

One thing that has been left out by both our new member and coffee, La Vallee's use of the very dangerous Nuage technique, Neuro Linguistic Programming.

A comment made by a psychologist over at Freedom of Mind about NLP:

"NLP is particularly bad for people because it does more of the same
thing cults do to people -- the techniques are manipulative rather
than helping the person to learn to be more conscious, critical, and
mindful of their thought processes. People who have been in cults
have gotten used to quick fixes offering easy black and white answers
and a superficial emotional buzz and NLP is seductive because it
provides more of that. While some NLP people have good intentions and
are not necessarily cult leaders, the techniques they are using are
based on promotional hype rather than any kind of substantive
evidence that they really help people. When I trained in NLP several
of the people in the trainings I encountered were active cult members
and people offering these trainings don't seem to care who signs up
and will take pretty much anyone as long as they're not overtly
disruptive to the class. The training I took was with one of the
better NLP people who is not a cult leader so I am not describing a
worst case scenario, yet there was still no screening and after the
training, there would be nothing to stop these unqualified people
(most of whom had no formal mental health credentials) from hanging
out a shingle and practicing and many of them do.

What they mainly do is produce the same kind of "high" people get
from cultic practices and some of the people who do NLP would fall
into the same category of what you describe about your abusive
friend. There are cult leaders out there who are using NLP techniques
and some of the people marketing NLP have become cult leaders who
take advantage of their followers while at the same time brazenly
maintaining that NLP is not a cult. One example is people using NLP
technques to take advantage of people sexually and financially as
many cult leaders do. I would advise people to stay away from all NLP
because even when it is not run by a cult leader, at best it is an
overly-hyped new age quick fix that makes claims without evidence to
support them."

Background article:

http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html

...Neuro-linguistic Programming (NLP) is one of many New Age Large Group Awareness Training programs. NLP is a competitor with Landmark Forum, Tony Robbins, and legions of other enterprises which, like the Sophists of ancient Greece, travel from town to town to teach their wisdom for a fee. Robbins is probably the most successful "graduate" of NLP. He started his own empire after transforming from a self-described "fat slob" to a firewalker to (in his own words) "the nation's foremost authority on the psychology of peak performance and personal, professional and organizational turnaround." The founders of NLP, Richard Bandler and John Grinder, might disagree....

NLP was begun in the mid-seventies by a linguist (Grinder) and a mathematician (Bandler) who had strong interests in (a) successful people, (b) psychology, (c) language and (d) computer programming.... NLP claims to help people change by teaching them to program their brains. We were given brains, we are told, but no instruction manual. NLP offers you a user-manual for the brain. The brain-manual seems to be a metaphor for NLP training, which is sometimes referred to as "software for the brain." Furthermore, NLP, consciously or unconsciously, relies heavily upon (1) the notion of the unconscious mind as constantly influencing conscious thought and action; (2) metaphorical behavior and speech, especially building upon the methods used in Freud's Interpretation of Dreams; and (3) hypnotherapy as developed by Milton Erickson. NLP is also heavily influenced by the work of Gregory Bateson and Noam Chomsky.

One common thread in NLP is the emphasis on teaching a variety of communication and persuasion skills, and using self-hypnosis to motivate and change oneself. Most NLP practitioners advertising on the WWW make grand claims about being able to help just about anybody become just about anything. The following is typical:

NLP can enhance all aspects of your life by improving your relationships with loved ones, learning to teach effectively, gaining a stronger sense of self-esteem, greater motivation, better understanding of communication, enhancing your business or career... and an enormous amount of other things which involve your brain. (from the now defunct http://www.nlpinfo.com/intro/txintro.shtml archived here)

Some advocates claim that they can teach an infallible method of telling when a person is lying, but others recognize that this is not possible. Some claim that people fail only because their teachers have not communicated with them in the right "language". One NLP guru, Dale Kirby, informs us that one of the presuppositions of NLP is "No one is wrong or broken."

....Another NLP presupposition which is false is "If someone can do something, anyone can learn it." This comes from people who claim they understand the brain and can help you reprogram yours. They want you to think that the only thing that separates the average person from Einstein or Pavarotti or the World Champion Log Lifter is NLP.

NLP is said to be the study of the structure of subjective experience, but a great deal of attention seems to be paid to observing behavior and teaching people how to read "body language." ....much of what NLP is teaching is how to do cold reading. This is valuable, but an art not a science, and should be used with caution.

Finally, NLP claims that each of us has a Primary Representational System (PRS), a tendency to think in specific modes: visual, auditory, kinaesthetic, olfactory or gustatory. A person's PRS can be determined by words the person tends to use or by the direction of one's eye movements. Supposedly, a therapist will have a better rapport with a client if they have a matching PRS. None of this has been supported by the scientific literature.*

....We are told that Bandler took as his first models Virginia Satir ("The Mother of Family System Therapy"), Milton Erickson ("The Father of Modern Hypnotherapy") and Fritz Perls (early advocate of Gestalt Therapy) because they "had amazing results with their clients." ....someone who is not mentioned, but who certainly seems like the ideal model for NLP, is Werner Erhard. He started est a few miles north (in San Francisco) of Bandler and Grinder (in Santa Cruz) just a couple of years before the latter started their training business. Erhard seems to have set out to do just what Bandler and Grinder set out to do: help people transform themselves and make a good living doing it. NLP and est also have in common the fact that they are built up from a hodgepodge of sources in psychology, philosophy, and other disciplines. Both have been brilliantly marketed as offering the key to success, happiness, and fulfillment to anyone willing to pay the price of admission. Best of all: no one who pays his fees fails out of these schools!

....you can get 6 days of training for $1,800 at the door ($1,500 prepaid). What will you be trained in or for? Bandler has been learning about "the advancement of human evolution" and he will pass this on to you. For $1,500 you could have taken his 3-day seminar on Creativity Enhancement (where you could learn why it's not creative to rely on other people's ideas, except for Bandler's).

....What did Grinder and Bandler do that makes it impossible to continue doing psychology or therapy or semiotics or philosophy without accepting their ideas? Nothing.

Do people benefit from NLP?

While I do not doubt that many people benefit from NLP training sessions, there seem to be several false or questionable assumptions upon which NLP is based. Their beliefs about the unconscious mind, hypnosis and the ability to influence people by appealing directly to the subconscious mind are unsubstantiated. All the scientific evidence which exists on such things indicates that what NLP claims is not true. You cannot learn to "speak directly to the unconscious mind " as Erickson and NLP claim, except in the most obvious way of using the power of suggestion.

in conclusion

It seems that NLP develops models which can't be verified, from which it develops techniques which may have nothing to do with either the models or the sources of the models. NLP makes claims about thinking and perception which do not seem to be supported by neuroscience.

....how do you measure the claim "NLP works"? I don't know and I don't think NLPers know, either. Anecdotes and testimonials seem to be the main measuring devices. Unfortunately, such a measurement may reveal only how well the trainers teach their clients to persuade others to enroll in more training sessions.


further reading

reader comments

The Bandler Method by Frank Clancy & Heidi Yorkshire (A 1989 article from Mother Jones magazine that accuses Bandler of alcohol and drug addiction, and argues he was guilty of the murder he was charged with in 1986.

[weheli]

Osiyo,
With all do respect to all on this forum and the fact I have been a poster and reasearcher on this forum for a while, what I am about to express I hope will be left in tact. This is my opinion and after much prayer and searching of my Spirit and MY Peples Way I must now Speak.

I have been in the mental health field since I was 30, and am now retired, I have my degrees ect. and am very intuned with what Mr. La Vallee is talking about. I also know that having "Credentials" a good Therapist, Psyc, SW ect does not make. I read what MP posted as to Psycotherapist and have pasted here the whole article.
The term "psychotherapist" is unlicensed; anyone -- and I mean anyone -- can call himself a psychotherapist. The same applies to the term "therapist". "Psychologist", "psychiatrist", and "certified social worker", on the other hand, require some kind of licensure. The practitioner cannot call himself by these titles unless he has met certain state and national requirements. These are usually as follows, in descending order of what fees they usually charge.

Psychiatrist: graduation from medical school, and then graduation from a psychiatric residency program. Many psychiatrists are also "board certified", which requires them to take another competency. Bear in mind, here, that unless the residency specifically focuses on psychotherapy, a psychiatrist can conceivably have no training or experience in it! Most who practice psychotherapy, however, do pursue advanced training. The problem with that is that they very likely received such training at a psychoanalytic institute. Such places vary widely in quality, and they can be rather limited in their orientation. Among the practitioners discussed here, at present only psychiatrists can prescribe medication. There are rumblings in the field of certifying psychologists to do so, but don’t hold your breath.

Psychoanalyst: A psychoanalyst must complete training at an analytic institute. Sounds very advanced but there are some cautions. First, there are institutes and there are institutes. Second, some institutes accept candidates who have little or no prior background in the field. A few institutes will not even consider any applicant other than a medical doctor who, as discussed above, may have no background in psychology. Thus, the analyst’s only training may be in the institute’s possibly narrow view of the field.

Psychologist: Ph.D. psychologists have about 5 years of graduate training in psychology and usually an undergraduate psychology major as well. Psy.D. psychologists have almost as much training but with less emphasis on the scientific aspects of the field. In order to obtain the license as a "psychologist" most states require a further 1 or 2 years of post-graduate supervised experience in the field. Masters level psychologists are not addressed as "doctor" and have only about 2 years of graduate training.

During graduate training, students spend up to half their time in clinical settings -- mental health centers, psychiatric hospitals, schools, clinics -- and receive one-on-one supervision of their work. Bear in mind that a psychologist who studies rats in graduate school and never sees a human patient can sit for the licensing exam, call himself a psychologist, and set up a practice -- although I’ve never heard of one who did. The thing you may want to ask is whether your psychologist is a "clinical psychologist", meaning did he specialize in diagnosis and treatment of humans.

Social Worker, LCSW: This is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker. Usually 2 years of graduate training with an emphasis on psychotherapy, an internship also emphasizing psychotherapy, and a year or two of supervised post-graduate work before obtaining the license.

CSW/R - CSW with six years of supervised psychotherapy experience.

CSW/P - CSW with one year of supervised psychotherapy experience.

Social Worker, ACSW: Master’s degree in social work, which may or may not involve any training in psychotherapy or even in human behavior, followed by 2 years clinical experienced under the supervision of another ACSW.

CSW - Certified Social Worker: This title is limited to New York State and requires only the master’s degree, no supervision nor post-graduate clinical experience.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

 So as you have read many of these people have little to no experience working with Human Beings. I was in therapy in my younger years and all I ever got was a nod or "and how did that make you feel", how was I to know how to feel whatever   I have walked down many roads, abusive chidhood in every way, battered wife, co-dependency ect. ect. and am totaly of the oppinion that to walk beside another to help them recover and HEAL, Mind,Body,Spirit, one must have walked that road themselves. Felt the Shame, worthlessness, terror ect. I have spent hours going over Mr. Lavelle's site and have found nothing thats even would need researching. ACOA, Adult Children of Alcoholics was a wonderful healing path and it came to almost a halt because the "professionals" said it was BS. Well it isn't and wasn't. I met Virginia Satir and all the ones at that time who was part of the new movement, Frogs into princesses was required reading. yes NLP was part of my training and it can be used in many ways if one chooses, I did not incorpriate it with my clients. Following is another take on NLP:
http://www.nlpschedule.com/resource.html#DLC

I also noted the "Vision" that Mr. Lallee is talking about is:  http://www.spirit-warrior.ca/guestbook.php . I have dreams, or visions if you will of what I would like to happen in the future. What is talked about here is just that.
Mr. La Vallee does have as a back up the:http://www.onsiteworkshops.com/

It was through my Cherokee Ceremonies and Traditions along with a Native friend who walked my path with me that TRUE holistic healing came about.
SO I ASK WHAT IS THIS THREAD ALL ABOUT??? I believe hidden agendas are here, my opionion is that because Mr. Lavlle was interviewed by the Heyoka Magazine is the reason this thread is here! Are we going to take everyone to task that the Magazine has interviewd? Medicine people say leave it alone, if they are doing wrong it will come back to them. SO please leave it alone. Creator WILL take care of what needs to be taken care of, WE are NOT Creator.

After much Soul Searching and the Creator bringing to mind a very close friend of mine whom I consider a brother, Lakota, 10 year Sundancer, with certain rites, and how for no reason at all, was tore down and because of one person who spread untruths, his life has drastically changed.
I do not want to answer to Crteator for anything like that, hurting of others and perhaps thier lifley hood. In the Sacred Circle of life what you do wrong to others will come back. I have chosen to not take that chanace anymore. I have never met any of you face to face, how am I to trust what you say, what IF only part of what here is true and the rest all the right Way. DO WE REALLY KNOW???

This sight has brought me personally much sorrow in my heart, and to any I have hurt, with all do respect with humility and humbleness I ask forgiveness.

Spoken with respect to you all on this forum.                           Wado
                                                                                         Weheli
 

[educatedindian]

Three pyschologists' opinions from Freedom of Mind:

1.
"It doesn't look like he's a psychologist at all. He calls himself
an "experiential psychotherapist". There's a big difference
between "psychotherapist" and "psychologist". Psychologists is
protected by licensure, but in many states anyone can call
themselves a "psychotherapist". It looks like all this person has
done is a bunch of "certification" trainings, which are basically
meaningless. Many of these sort of certification trainings are open
to virtually anyone.

Regardless of his licensure, however, from the looks of what he's
offering, he's practicing bogus therapies and should be avoided.
Unfortunately, licensure doesn't prohibit therapists from using just
about any therapy they want to (except in rare instances where a
therapy is banned in a particular state as rebirthing is in some
states)."

2.
"Your question about what all this means is very appropriate. From
reading what he's done, it looks like he has attended
several 'workshops' - most are open to whoever can pay
admission/attendance fee. As a 'professional credit certificate, it
generally only means that IF YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL you can probably
list it as one of the on-going training credits you have to
accumulate to keep up your registration with whatever legislative
body you are accredited with. If you are not under such an
accreditation, it just means you attended the workshop.
Personally, I don't know the native accredited training or how it
works. The only accreditation I see in his list is that he was
accredited as a psychodramatist. Most such organizations do require a
counsellor to have professional training previously but I don't see
it in his list.
It also looks like he took a 12 step program himself, which would
suggest having fought his own addiction.
The list of practice hours is usually not something a trained
professional would list for anyone.
By the way - who knows what the 'pre-med' course was - did he get a
degree??? Doesn't look like it. (Not that degrees are everything)"

3.
"I’d say this guy could be real dangerous to anyone who may seek him out,
especially since many seeking such help are in a vulnerable position to start.

The only good thing about his web site is that it is one of the worse I have
ever seen. To keep it short –way too busy - just plain bad - It made my head
hurt after only a short amount of time – hopefully anyone seeking help will
take a close look at this site and realize this guy is just a amateur wantabee
and steer clear."

[educatedindian]

Weheli, in answer to your concerns,

"I was in therapy in my younger years and all I ever got was a nod or "and how did that make you feel", how was I to know how to feel whatever"

A lot of people have been hurt by bad "therapy". That includes people posing as counselors and therapists who aren't.

"yes NLP was part of my training and it can be used in many ways if one chooses, I did not incorpriate it with my clients. Following is another take on NLP:
http://www.nlpschedule.com/resource.html#DLC"

A site advertising it? If you'd given us a site where people had studied it and found evidence it works, that might mean something.

"Mr. La Vallee does have as a back up the:http://www.onsiteworkshops.com/"

That site just hosts workshops, most of them dubious.

"SO I ASK WHAT IS THIS THREAD ALL ABOUT???  I believe hidden agendas are here, my opionion is that because Mr. Lavlle was interviewed by the Heyoka Magazine is the reason this thread is here! Are we going to take everyone to task that the Magazine has interviewd?"

Weheli, you know NAFPS very well. You know that when we find one fraud, many of the people they work with turn out to be frauds themselves.

You know very well, for example, that Charles Storm trained Harley Reagan, that Jamie Sams and Twyla Nitsh endorse each other, and dozens of other examples of frauds working closely, training each other, and promoting each other.

So why would you think this should be any different? Dupree is a pretty obvious teller or lies. Mala Pope abuses women. And Lekay has a perfect record so far of picking ONLY liars, deceivers, exploiters, and fringe characters.

If this had turned out differently, I'd be the first to say I was wrong. No one should be above asking questions about them. And as the last post shows, his "training" is worthless, perhaps even dangerous.

"Medicine people say leave it alone, if they are doing wrong it will come back to them. SO please leave it alone. Creator WILL take care of what needs to be taken care of, WE are NOT Creator."

ALL Medicine people? No, you know very well that MOST medicine people, HUNDREDS of them, are the first ones to stand up and say this is wrong and people need to speak out and end this lack of respect.

Creator also gave us minds and hearts that say we cannot stand by while people are being hurt.

Honestly, I don't think you would either. If you knew someone to be a fraud, and someone mentioned wanting to see him, I believe you would talk them out of it.

I've seen you in here for all these years, and I believe your good heart would tell you to do the right thing and speak up.

"After much Soul Searching and the Creator bringing to mind a very close friend of mine whom I consider a brother, Lakota, 10 year Sundancer, with certain rites, and how for no reason at all, was tore down and because of one person who spread untruths, his life has drastically changed.
I do not want to answer to Crteator for anything like that, hurting of others and perhaps thier lifley hood. In the Sacred Circle of life what you do wrong to others will come back."

We're not doing anything like that. We've told the truth. La Vallee has not. And Lekay is so far gone he can't tell the truth from lies.

[coffee_drinker]

Weheli,
I am fairly new to the group here and still feeling my way around things. I have been spending many hours researching these last 2 days and will try to post my research of my findings.
I myself use different means other than sites to research, due to many errors that may be misleading.

I do understand what you are speaking of, I myself have seen someone close that also was falsely accused.  There is much truth in what you speak of when you do not know the person on a personal level, and it is quite common for many to make judgement calls based on what is floating out there in cyberspace. It reminds me of a game young ones play, where they sit in a circle and one will whisper something into the ear of one sitting next to them. By the time it gets back to the one that started the game, it is completely different than the original story.

As far as the researching of Mr. LaValle has anyone come across any information that he has studied or been associated with any known frauds?
I, myself am unsure of which direction to take with this research, don't know if it should be creditials, native background, personal background, or all I have listed. There are post that suggest one or the other, so that part I get a little on the confused side.

In your words you are expressing some very thoughtful insight to how you are seeing things, which I give you much credit. Many choose to shoot off the hip so to speak, and can do some pretty serious damage to another.
I will say this much, having some of the access which I am greatful for I have come across some pretty bizarre things that I have been taken back by.  The best judge is our conscience, so with that I have a great respect for you. My prayers are with you as you walk a good path

[Moma_porcupine]

Guys , as I see it , this is an Indian marketing Indian flavored psychotherapy. You just heard 3 proffesional opinions from within the psychotheraputic community that his psychotheraputic skills are marginal . That leaves "Indian flavored"

The website below talks about his healing work , and mentions working with children . This is clearly "Indian flavored"

http://ca.blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BG6LhU8wcK_YWKCkR_c7T8zL26g-?cq=1

Are you all thinking that anyone who goes to some alternative psychotherapy workshops can market physcotherapy , heavily mixed with with "Indian Wisdom " and that is Ok ? As long as they call themselves a therapist and not a medicine person ?

While that is not as disrepectful and degrading as marketing oneself as a medicine man , there would still be the problem of people getting hurt by incompetant people .

What Native community is Mr Lavalle connected with ?  With John Lakay he mostly speaks with some bitterness about the lateral violence in the Native community , and feeling alienated .

Does the Native community regard Mr lavallee as a competant helper ? Does he work with other Elders ? Does his traditional understanding compensate for his modest training in other areas ?

I agree about being careful about jumping to conclusions about someone from what you see on the internet , but when what you
feel concerned about is the persons own words on their own website , it isn't just gossip. Some of what is said on this webpage
did raise my concerns .

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:MZ8OxVfBnE0J:www.spirit-warrior.ca/scenario.shtml+site:www.spirit-warrior.ca+%22Circle+of+Life+Medicine+Way
%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca

I get more and more requests from people asking me to explain, deeper, more intricately...  more specifically about the process (what is it I actually do - the steps and movement - even the words   or wording I use) within this transformational work (process) that I assist people in doing. I am understanding  more about this great need most people have to ease their mistrust. Their deep need to get as much information and knowledge of  and about the methods and methods.

(con..)

For me it seems simple and easy to "talk" about it and to write about it because I have done so much of this deep already, that I think it just is easy as writing about it. I realize that it isn't even simple to explain..the more I speak about it to other people of various professions and expertise and lifestyle.

I see that there is a great need... to not only understand the issue of trust... and for the explaining of the process, sharing it, teaching it and accepting that it a spiritual process This is very difficult for those of us who have been victimized AND / OR those of us who have victimized and feel real untrusting, even shame-based amongst other dysfunctions.

The thing that put me on alert here , is that he is telling people who might not trust him , that not trusting people is a dysfunction .
People who have been abused often don't have a working crap detector because abusers seem normal to them . That is why people who have been abused as children often go on to be repeatedly abused as adults even when they could make choices to protect themselves . I really reallly disagree with telling people to ignore their inner signals that something is wrong . That is really dangerous .  Especially in the inner city .

He then proceeds to explain what he does ;

# Setting new points of reference to understand why and how present beliefs and thought processing are the way they are -
thinking, acting, and reacting...
# - Clarifying what abuse or neglect is within natural lving process
Within a natural living process?  Are thoise words even necessary or do they just sound good ?
# Setting up the means and parameters to explore present beliefs and faith.
# - Being able to keep acutely aware of the position and purpose the guide / helper at all times during the process is
paramount to trust.
# Know how and why the guide / helper is walking with you on your journey.
# - Ability to internalize trust... accept trust to enable the fullest empowerment so you are able to acknowledge your true
story, your journey.
# - Know what is going to happen and asking for complete clarification of outcome? For comlete safety.
# - Re-live or re-do with purpose for establishing clear - now and then, who and what... why and how discerning.
# Echo - Concretizing statements and states with purposeful centering communication.
# - Simplifying, clarifying, qualifying emotions and separating them from states of being or groups of emotions or pent-up
distorted overwhelming states of being. Sorting out.
# - Rating trust to foster inner knowing, wisdom and knowledge
# Clarify and qualify ones true essence for safety and personal identification - re-orientation to the time and place inthe
present.

---------------
I have a small amount of psychological understanding , and what Mr lavallee just said here doesn't make any sense to me . That he is saying a lot of other people don't understand what he is talking about, and mistrust him seems like I am not the only one to feel like this doesn't make a lot of sense . And it isn't because people were abused and have trust issues that what he is doing seems questionable . It is questionable .

I see Mr Lavalle looking for donations for a Circle of Life Medicine Way healing lodge rainbow tribe global community

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:2ty6RVp9sqAJ:www.spirit-warrior.ca/guestbook.php+site:www.spirit-warrior.ca+%22Circle+of+
Life+Medicine+Way%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca

What I write about here is based in my vision of The Circle of Life Medicine Way For me, I dream of a physical place, with a conventional building, somewhat like a circular meeting place, like a Kiva in Mother Earth. A place where we can all go, people of all faiths. To express and share our grratitude for one and other and self, together in unison, for conscious awareness of living compassionate. I see that it is necessary, to have a natural place inevery part of Mother Earth, places  throughout the cities and commnunities, shrines if you will. I envision a place by the water or with a fountain, with grandfathers rocks in circle to sit on and a tree(s) of life,  with an actual physical labyrinth in the Spirit-Warrior Way. Where we all can come into human connection, in the Global Community, as the Rainbow Tribe of Mother Earth. There will be an  alter, where we will honor all ways of connection to worship and honor spirit and life force / humanity.

Click this DONATIONS button to take you to a completely secure PAY PAL site... Pilamaya.

It sounds like a nice idea but a more than a bit out there . A circular fountain ? A circle of rocks ? A labrinth ? Rainbow tribe of Mother Earth ? He is also soliciting funds in the UK and Germany . In Germany he seem to have focused on prevention of youth suicide . A nice idea but these are very vulnerable and unstable people .

http://firstclass.skc.edu/news/0000D3A9-80000002/S00A8598D-00A85993?WasRead=1

http://www.lakota-aid.co.uk/lkspiritwarrioradd.htm

Does this guy really have the practical grounding and skills to do what he is purposing ?

He comes across as a nice guy who really cares , and if he is working with adult Native people in the inner city , in a culturally sensitive way and what he is doing helps , I would support what he is doing wholeheartedly . But I think it is important that people trust their gut instincts and if something doesn't feel right they need to pay attention and trust their feelings . Keep yourself safe first and sort out why you felt that way later .

On the other hand if all these internet advertisements are geared to attracting non native clients , who don't need culturally sensitive therapy programs , and just need therapy , I can't see why this guy would be the best choice .

[frederica]

I doubt if you will find much on research on NLP. You would have to find long term research with a large control group. It's just not going to be there. The same goes with all the passing "therapies" such as Gestalt, TA, Reality Therapy and so forth. They deal with basic intact people. They don't report the ones that had psychotic breakdowns from their therapy. It does work for some people, but very little objective data is available. A lot I've seen depends on the Therapist, some of these people are dymamic. I've seen workshops on "Cure PTSD with Metaphores",  interesting but another that has limited use. I think some things can be incorporated to standard practice for some people. The problem I see with a lot of this aside from educational background and no oversite, is in most of Psychiatric Therapies the more people treated and the longer the therapy is used the less effective it turns out to be. As far as LeKay, I doubt if there is a hidden agenda, I just think he would support anything that leans left of the "establishment".  I think Ingleborg said anyone can hang out a psychotherapy sign in Germany as long as no one calls the police. You can come pretty close to it here also. frederica

[coffee_drinker]

After a lengthy conversation with the native woman I had posted about concerning Mr. La Valle.

This is what she had to say on her own personal account
" Mr. Valle, when speaking to me, I found through common ground of our race, that I am able to communicate my issues without the frustrations that I have felt with my "white" doctor and therapists.
That his approach of looking into the issues are very common among people in the clinical field of psychology, with the exception of agreeing  with me that medication is not the answer to helping me overcome that which I am battling, unlike the doctor that for 15 minutes only nods his head during the session, writes out a long list of meds, tells me he will see me in a month and then I proceed to the billing office to pay my 165.00 bill for the 15 minutes of void. Afterwards I head to the pharmacy to have my scripts filled and hearing the amount of 110.00 and that is for a month supply of poisons to my body. I have been doing this for 25 years of my life.
I do not have any kind of mental illness that would constitute needing the medications that are pumped into me. In fact now it has added to struggles that many of the medications I have been on have a higher physical addiction than herion.
Mr. Valle has not implied he is a medicine man.
That in the first conversation, spoke out to me, point to exactly what the core of my issue is. This was not implanting into me a thought that was of a "mind control or manipulation"
What started out in my life as  a very workable issue, has now caused so much damage to me by several licensed psychiatrist, and therapist, that has esculated to a level that will now take a lot of work on my behalf to try and overcome.
I do believe that Mr. La Valle can help lead me in the direction that is needed for me to undo all the damage caused from those in the clinical field, amd help address my basic issue".

What I have wrote here is what I was told by this indivudual.
My research has lead me into other things that would be worth starting a new thread. So with that I will walk away from this post to begin a new thread that could use some addressing. Thanks

Ps.. Frederica in your post "The problem I see with a lot of this aside from educational background and no oversite, is in most of Pschiatric Therapies the more people treated and the longer the therapy is used the less efective it turns out to be".
Which is exactly what this lady was saying.

[Moma_porcupine]

A medicine man is someone who uses traditional knowledge to heal . Mr Lavallee repeatedly makes the claim that this is what he is doing . So he is describing himself as a medicine man although he does not use those words .

Having someone who cares,  and who supports people in their desire to be healthy , and encourages people to be in touch with how
they are feeling , and to talk about this,  is probably going to be helpful . But all the extra big words don't add meaning or value , and neither does the extensive talk of traditional things on a web page which strips these things of most their meaning and value .   

Anonymus endorsments through anonymus people on line are interesting , but can't be given a lot of wieght . As we are not in Winnipeg we can't possibly know this guys reputation in that community . What would seem sensible is for people to do a search for Aboriginal organizations in the city of Winnipeg that work with Native people in the city .
----------
(edited to add)
Such as ;

http://www.wrha.mb.ca/aboriginalhealth/services/index.php

or

http://www.eyaa-keen.org/
which I see is an Aboriginal organization which provides culturaly sensitve psychotheraputic support to Native people in the Winnipeg area , and has many other government funded Aboriginal organizations linking to it's webpage ( a good sign that this oganization  respected in the Winnipeg area)
----------------
 These organizations all know each other , are usually working closely with the native community and Native Elders , and people within them will know the individual people who are doing good work for Native people  . There is sometimes politics and corruption in these organizations ,  but not everyone who works within them is corrupt , and Mr Lavallee should be able to choose three people who can be verified to work in these recognized organizations to give him a reference .  If he can do this , I would have no more concerns than I have with any accredited health care provider .

Personally , I tend to err on the side of caution with all of em ...

( edited to add ; in the interview he gave to John Lekay, Mr Lavalle complained of expereincing corruption in another organization he worked for , and said he had been marginalized in Indian country because of this - which is why I made the comments about corruption . I have no reason to think either of the organizations linked to above are corrupt )

[coffee_drinker]

I wasn't endorsing anyone, just posting what was told to me.... Please don't shoot the messenger

[educatedindian]

La Vallee's blog. Like the fluffy Nuage artwork.

http://ca.blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BG6LhU8wcK_YWKCkR_c7T8zL26g-?cq=1

Also received information that La Vallee has seven ex wives, all but one of them white.

Here's the personal ad he placed on True.com. What's interesting is that he would do a Nuage spirchul healer pitch in order to get women.

-----

SpiritWarriorVision
Spiritual Warrior Vision - Earth Spi...

52-year-old in Atlanta, GA (98 miles from you)
Seeking 30 to 60-year-old women
         
Wink back now and include a message to tell him you're interested:
Email me for FREE and tell me more about yourself >>
Wink back at SpiritWarriorVision without including a message >>
               
-----               

This is from another website where he posted.

------ 

akicita 
9/22/2003 11:07 AM

I am a Native American psychotherapist, in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada... I volunteer my services to many people who cannot afford to pay for this type of service. I mainly help with psycho-social problems of family violence, addictions and oppression/depression...
as well I assist in helping abused people reclaim their identity. I help some, mostly youth and women, who are dealing with spiritual abuse in the form of  spiritual blackmailing and fear mongering... many people come with fears of "bad medicine" from 
quasi-healed men mostly who are sill abusive.
Although I sometimes am paid with traditional payment such as Moose or elk or jams or jellies, it is mostly done as gifts... it is an exchange of faith and hope... I do not pray with my clients or do ceremonies... I do the ceremonies on my own with my teachers/elders... I 
help others intehrate the teachings of psycho-social healing and the values and morals of good life...
I find this rewarding and have seen many people walk 
away from abuse and on to a better life... physically, mentally and emotionally and even spiritually.
Volutnteering is a wonderful gift for the volunteer as well! Giving is spirit... may we all give with healthy nurturing. Akicita Wakan Mani

I read this from a very loving person... someone who was hurt deeply and has much fear...
I had parents who were like this...
I had teachers who were like this...
And they gave me messages, that were "sword - like"
meant to be "cutting" and at the time I felt the pain and shaming of their own shame... they were hurt... by those before them... akicita @ www.spiritwarrior.ca
 
Have you ben shamed by people of the same color as you... by the ones who loked down on you while you laid in your cradle, wrapped in a blanket? Did they neglect you? Do you feel afraid to talk of your hurts and pain? This is shame! And you will pass it on and some do in the name of "Spirit" "God" "Mother Earth"...
 
My brother wrote the following:<<>>
 
"It doesnt really matter, because most folks here dont really listen to each other anyway. 
I think we are all connected, through our mother the Earth,and by spirit through our creator. 
What I do to you I do to myself,to God and all creation. 
I think we should walk our talk. walk softly and carry a 38.special.
I hate bullies and people who prey on the innocent by whatever means.
I dont think spirituality is a liberal thing.
It is a tough job,and isnt for the faint of heart."
>>>End of quote<<<
 
My brother died a horrible death - he was burned to death on the street, plice were present, while a can of "sniff" solvnet ignited! It expolded throughout the hallway he was in and he burst out of the doorway and... it's there. down the steps, a flaming Lakota... he burned beyond recognition... as his sniffing buddy was held back by police... dental records ID'd him later.
He was a burden to society and he said many hurtful things to others and to me...
I never understood why?
 
In this year of 1992, I learned of my own bitterness - my own fear - my own shame and I saw my brother, whom I had judged and critisized an dhurt... I saw him at the Sundance at the tree of life and he smiled... I cried.
 
I understand the racism, the prejudice, the judgement and harshness of HURT PEOPLE! 
 
We, you and I, must learn compassion. Compassion for ourselves... Maybe this is first and then maybe, just maybe we will need to find another being to attach to.... maybe another human being... maybe a four-legged, a winged one or others...
Depending on our trust level and our damage level inside of us. 
This is the way to become free of our hurting and hurtful ways... 
I had shame for me and I showed this to my brother by hurting him and he died never knowing that I loved him... never hearing. I never knew compassion and I was so sorry for not being compasionate to him... 
This is why I went for healing and this is why I live my life to help others... BUT first I make sure that 
I am healthy.... 
I pray to be able to walk through the sahme of my past behaviors and be willing and able to address my hurts and judgements of others... always.
 
I ask us all to pray for the people who are so hurt that they will attack with whatever they can... to hurt you BECAUSE they are hurt.
 
Please take care of your asociations... sometimes our faith is like that baby and we must keep it safe from big "hurt" people...
 
Theree is a saying:
"The truth will set you free... but first, 
It will make your life miserable."
 
akicita @ www.spiritwarrior.ca
Pilamaya, Mitakuye Oyasin...
 
Look deep into your heart for compassion

-----

A blog entry

-----   

Daily Affirmation for June 22, 2007
Family, Familiar... Who Needs To Be Hurt... NO BODY, NO ONE! 
Remember this... I pray that when you have made your move to make war on me, to attack me and my people, that when we finally come to face to face, and look into each other's eyes... that you will have all of your strength and ability...and all the weapons you will need and want.  I pray too at this time, that in this moment that you will be able see and say why and willing to tell me why must do this? To tell to my face why you wish war... say your real reason in your heart and mind, why you come to do this? 
If you still want war, thinking this will end your pain or just because you are disturbed...  then war will be.  May this battle result, only, in the deaths, of the lies, of the trickery and  of the dis-connection from our Creator... our true source of living... There will no death of anyone's heart.
You will say why - what is inside your heart and mind that you do this... and be willing to put that away forever - heal it all.
Then when we are through, then only with the truth, will we sit and smoke to peace."

I pray for all those that act out in hurtful ways, to hurt others, thinking they have no conscience or responsibility... I ask you,
WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO END THE HOOD? 
OR ARE YOU CAUSING OTHERS TO STAY IN THE HOOD?
THE VICTIM-HOOD... TO HAVE THEM FOR YOUR OWN MIS-USE?

Life used to be used to be a real challenge, even fearful at times... for sure there were hurtful times... sad and angering too, when shame-based people would attack or someone near me would be attacked where I could actually see it and feel the attack.  Wow!   
Now it is - Today  - And it is directly and because of the appropriate and relevant strengthening healing work... yes actual understanding and the inner resolution of the deepest reasons why I did not live as well as I wanted to and acted like I knew to...  and the true re-education!! 
I am not talkin' of those old, useless, and ordinary type of do-gooder hide-my-own-faults I-am-educated acts... like those who just read a book or watch a documentary or a movie or do a world wide web INFORMING search for info or do a closed-inner group consciuosness meeting or one or a couple of weekends of spiritual orgasmic workshop or attend or go to a revealing confession-type ceremony that gives them a reprieve or break from their hatefulness and abusiveness AND then they RETURN... for some, they will go back to their NATURAL OLD FAMILY WAY and just keep on violating others... maybe even sexualizing and / or druggin' and drinkin' ... This is not educating and not healing and not a good excuse  to keep on abusing anyone.   
I have work with people who are acting out or in... I encourage everyone to speak out and say what it is they actually feel and think about life and what life has done to them... people who have twisted their fear and shame into hurtfulness to others... in sometimes distorted grotesque way in some cases - really believe it! This is realty.  And I see that while their beliefs must be said and shown - they still must be stopped in their abusiveness  - Regardless if they are really scary or not!   
Challenged lovingly and truthfully, with no excuse for abuse.... I was shown this way by healthy helpers/healers is what works. This is what helps me do my work, which I have personally done - I do exactly - how and what I need to do to keep my integrity and dignity and keep the abuser safe... even in the face of violent abusive people... I accept how and why to stand up as Sundancer Warrior... to any human being who acts out abusively.   
IT DOES NOT MATTER!!!
 IF THEY ARE - 
                          A   DOCTOR (he knows that I am a doctoral candidate)
               A  LAWYER
                 A  TEACHER (me again)
                                     OR INDIAN CHIEF
                            A   NEW AGE GURU
 
OR WHETHER THEY ARE 
DRUNK - WET OR DRY!
DRUGGED UP OR DOWN!
EDUCATED AND SOCIALIZED
OR IN A GANG OR
REAL THREATENING - MEAN AND VIOLENT
AND LIVE ON THE STREETS!

You are to be willing to BE decisively looking - seeing all that is happening with the attacker and all that they are CHOOSING to OR REFUSING to leave out OR AVOIDING OR OUT-RIGHT LYING ABOUT -  (no waffling here) so that they are or may be allowed to keep going with being abusive and / or allowed to intellectualize their abusiveness... this can be seen by them (and believed in their own way of thinking - as completely - natural) as - justifying, even promoting them in their abusiveness and violation way. This is saying to them that violence works to control others.
For sure be aware, ask, check out what and why they  are doing what they are doing, AND... Yet when they are right there in front of you and they are being abusive...  you are obligated to ask why and you must ask them straight forward if they are here, present and accounted for -   to do the "solution work"... to heal themselves within the problem 
AND they must be able, fully functionally to relate to you that you have NO HISTORY with them and that they do not need to be attacking you...  this is your true way of relating to them... AND when they are not willing to share their personal history then it will not work - the healing process that is. You need to see that they use violence and that they will do whatever hurtful way that they know and are comfortable... what they "USE" to relate to you. 
Keep in mind that you did not violate them. Stay open to resolution - this is tough to do.
 
It is good to know and remember that we all have fear, normal fear, not strengthened by unresolved states of acting out - which really is a state of "great fear" and "shame" or more specifically - terror which is greater than normal fear
Ultimately I have prepared to not go backwards for anyone... not even myself.

 "THE GREATEST SIN OF OUR TIME
IS NOT THE FEW WHO HAVE DESTROYED, 
BUT THE VAST MAJORITY 
WHO'VE SAT IDLY BY."   
                                             Martin Luther King Jr.

Practically and Humbly, I offer my prayers for peaceful resolution to all global confrontations... starting within myself and emanating out to all I come to or who come to me.  All people have the right to be safe and empowered... to live, speak and walk in healthy and well connection, in truth, balanced and in harmony with laws and justice of all humanity and Mother Earth.   
Pilamaya, Mitakuye Oyasin

And for anyone out there reading this who does not read well or chooses to ignore SOME of what I write here -

I DO NOT MEAN ALL NATIVE AMERICANS!
I MEAN SOME NATIVE AMERICANS!
STILL TODAY - THERE ARE FAR TOO MANY OF US
SPEWING RACIST, DEROGATORY INNUENDO,
GOSSIP, AND EVEN - OUT-RIGHT LIES ABOUT ONE AND OTHER!
AND THIS IS WHAT...
the pipe was meant to be clearing up!
As well as other things troubling us and the rest of the world!
Get it - THE REST OF HUMANKIND!

This is why the sacred pipe was brought to us.

It has been my experience that gossip, innuendo, and out-right lies are perpetrated in homes, in the work place, in the schools, in the city, on the reservations... and in some very isolated cases - in a circle or in some ceremonies! There is no place sacred from this 
LATERAL VIOLATION!!

Confrontation and challenge is good when,  what we are challenging or confronting has substantiated proof!  Not gossip!  Not the type concocted by some one wronged through some old issue or through some shame-based fear of attack.  Not just some person who has a private personal agenda of shaming another person and maybe to deflect exposure or help for or  from their own troubles... maybe their own same violations.  of a violation that you have seen or have a producible witness, not "hearsay" or "so-and-so said" and so then - it must be true!!  And to make matters worse... I will not divulge... I will not say, who exactly said the exact information!! Doing this does not allow for substantiating the reason for the confrontation or accusations and nobody gets free.   
This way makes VICTIMS of all people.

There are laws against slander and lies... just cause the system we live in says it is OK to not tell all the truth - You know - Truth but with leaving some things out - which is really lying by omitting all the facts OR lies by changing the facts, altering what happened or what was was said - This is a biggy"

[Skully]

From Stephen Barrett, MD's Quackwatch.com:

Neurolinguistic programming (NLP) is a variable system of procedures purported to enable people to communicate more effectively and influence others. It is said to involve modifying the patterns or "programming" created by interactions among the brain (neuro), language (linguistic), and the body that produce both effective and ineffective behavior. Proponents claim that NLP has cured phobias, allergies, and other problems in one or a few brief sessions. Its core postulates are: (a) people are most influenced by messages that reflect how they internally represent whatever they are doing; and (b) this representation is reflected by eye-gaze patterns, posture, tone of voice, and language patterns. The internal representation can be visual (picturing what they are involved with), auditory (hearing it sounded out), or can involve other senses. Proponents claim, for example, that a someone experiencing a mental image might use the words "I see," whereas someone in an auditory mode might say "that sounds right to me. Scientific studies have demonstrated no correlation between eye movements and visual imagery, reported thoughts, or language choices. A National Research Council committee has found no significant evidence that NLP's theories are sound or that its practices are effective.

Also see:

Mental Help: Procedures to Avoid

More poignant that that though, is that he never even finished his Bachelor's Degree. Pre-med is simply a state of mind anyway, and not a degree program.

[educatedindian]

Noticed that on La Vallee's site, his Daily Affirmations now say that he does not use NLP, even though elsewhere on the site he describes it as one of the things that make him qualified to be a counselor.

La Vallee is now solicting along with Lekay for testimonies against NAFPS. I'd guess Lekay went through "therapy" with La Vallee. Maybe that's affecting how sloppy Lekay is in his "research."

La Vallee, by one account I've received, was both physically and emotionally abusive to at least two of his wives. He also was conducting "therapy" over the phone using what this account described as "ceremonial rituals" for which he did charge. La Vallee also mentioned Thunderbird House, but nowhere on the site does he say that he didn't get funded through Thunderbird House to conduct his "therapies."

[frederica]

There is just no valid long term information on NLP. They have had time, but not objective data. Here is a good idea of their lack of emperical information. http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html I can see why he backed off of his claim. And Paulie is right about pre-med. That is just a group of courses offered by Universities for not only Doctors, but pre-pharmacy, pre-nursing, and so on. But you have to graduate to pick your field. frederica

[educatedindian]

La Vallee just wrote an incredibly long (15-20 pages) letter to Lekay that's alternately laugh out loud funny and makes your jaw drop in amazement in how foolish it is.

I think I've been wearing out this Winston Churchill quote at my other site, www.davidyeagley.org. But it fits here too.

"There's nothing more exhilirating than to be sniped at to no effect."

I haven't see any sign that Lekay or La Vallee have been able to hurt us the slightest bit. Just the opposite, I keep getting letters of support, people keep coming to us for help and joining at the same rate, sites keep using us as a resource, and I don't know of anyone whose believed a word that Lekay and Co have to say, outside of a few exploiters pouting that we're mean and racist lunatics like Yeagley.

The articles that Lekay keeps putting out makes him and the people he interview look far worse than we could ever make them
look, downright obsessed and crazed.

As far as I'm concerned, Lekay can keep writing all the "exposes" he wants. It's less time he'll be spending promoting more exploiters and other fringe characters out to do damage to Indian Country like Dupree and Annett.

Annika, in fact, tells me his "exposes" have been great publicity for the film. Thanks John. I really mean that.

For most of the twenty pages, La Vallee compares me to Tim McVeigh and the shooter at Virginia Tech. Remember how Lekay attacked Tachia in here? What is it with these two that they automatically compare any NDN who disagrees with them to mass murderers?

You bet, La Vallee, my asking *actual* psychologists, who then say how your "credentials" are worthless, that's the same as killing dozens or hundreds with bombs or assault weapons.
 
All that La Vallee is doing is driving away potential client/marks by showing how terrible he is at being a counselor. No reputable psychologist or psychiatrist would diagnose someone they'd never met. The one psychology term he doesn't seem to know is "Projection."

There's some other huge mistakes in the letter that are pretty amusing. Lekay actually identifies photos of La Vallee as *photos of me*. Lekay does this not once but four times that I counted, much like earlier he and Robin kept confusing Annika with Frederica.

La Vallee is now claiming he just wanted to congratulate Annika on the film, nothing more. He conveniently forgets that it was *Lekay* who insisted, "I know someone who can help you" and that La Vallee repeatedly offered to "help cure you".

In fact most of the people that Lekay contacted he then tried to urge them to become clients of La Vallee. Lekay is actively soliciting business for La Vallee.

For what? A cut? A misguided belief in his "guru"? Lekay had earlier believed in the "crystal skulls" nonsense about Mayans, making them for years until another better artist made his own and sold them for 30 million dollars. Lekay then publicly complained about his "art" being "stolen".

La Vallee also claimed that Lekay is not a racist. But then La Vallee openly repeated the same rumors being spread by an open racist, a follower of white supremacist David Yeagley, named John Martin.

And while claiming he has been healed of violence, La Vallee doesn't see any problems with Lekay working with a violent lunatic, the same John Martin. Or the accounts of an ex client below, where La Vallee got violent with at least two of his wives.

A former client of La Vallee emailed me to tell me several things:

His clients are almost exclusively white women. He uses the "I can heal you" pitch to hit on them. It's how he met most of his wives. So it's quite possible he thought he could make Annika his White Wife Number Seven, and thus have influence over how the film was made.

He actually does not have that many clients. For the most part La Vallee lives off of his white wives that began as his clients.

As his control starts to slip over his white wives, for at least two of them he became violent and threatening, shoving one and causing a loud enough scene where the police were called.

He is no longer using his first name of Jimmy and is instead calling himself Jaye La Vallee. He has done this in the past when facing complaints about the ethics of what he does. It's his attempt at an alias.

None of the people whose names La Vallee drops as proof of him being legit actually endorse him. Not Phil Fontaine, not Looking Horse. And the photo that is supposedly him with Bishop Tutu? Big deal. My sister met Jimmy Carter (at a book signing), that doesn't mean that Carter endorses her. It's pretty obvious the guy was one of many standing in line to have his photo taken. (Heck, you can even see the line in the photo.)

That ex client also congratulated me for the thread here, saying they see La Vallee's letter to Lekay as a sign of panic, that La Vallee is probably losing clients and income.

Ironically, as everyone can see, this thread is still under Research Needed after all this time. We really don't have a category for La Vallee. We usually go after spiritual exploiters, and he's more of a pseudo science or medical quack.

I don't think we should put him under Frauds, for the simple reason we'll be accused of doing it as retaliation instead of on its merits.

I will not be the one to move this thread to Frauds. I think only if most of NAFPS says that he belongs in Frauds should one of the other moderators move it.   

A final point: La Vallee demanded I speak with him by phone, demanded I publish my phone number. He must be joking...

Contact me through the forum, Jimmy/Jaye/etc. I believe I can help you, especially by gettin you away from the people who use you like Lekay, and the people you use, like Lekay. My faith insists that even the worst of us, like you and Lekay and the racist lunatic that Lekay works with, John Martin, need to be prayed for and helped and can change.

I doubt he'll take me up on it. Both Lekay and La Vallee seem to be afraid to come onto a forum that is mostly NDN.

Fact is, NAFPS probably is going easier on them than any other NDN forum would. They haven't dared set foot on any forums like Indianz, where they'd get torn apart, laughed and mocked endlessly.