International Council of 13 Indigenous Grandmothers (aka the 13 Pay to Pray Old Ladies)

[KIS]

Interesting comments!

You are right about the King/Queen thing. Looked briefly over my notes and resources and can't find the info. I don't know who I was thinking of.  Thanks for correcting me. If the info is located, I'll repost, ok?

The rest of the info came right out of the Carole Schaeffer book mentioned earlier. Grandmother Bernadette's "President" title and the country are printed on p. 25.

Perhaps Gabon can be called  still called "Gabon", either officially or unofficially. Like the United States of American is also the USA?

[educatedindian]

I've lost track now. How many times does this make it, Gina/KIS, that you've repeatedly dodged questions about the Nuage ceremony seller Prevatt?

How many timeshave you dodged these questions by going into these little puff pieces about the tribal women involved, when they have never been the issue, just how a Nuage ceremony seller may be using them?

This one is is the only one I can keep count on: You failed to answer how much money Prevatt is making off these grandmothers once, because you say you do not know.

But for someone who thinks as highly of these women as you do, well, don't you think it's past time to ask Prevatt herself that question? Are you a volunteer who believes in what you do, or just a paid employee with no say?

And keep in mind we're not just talking about money made on the spot from appearances, etc. Prevatt is likely now better know for this little dog and pony show than for her ceremony selling, so it's bound to have helped her Nuage fraud business. How much have her revenues gone up since she fabricated this "council"?

And yes it does belong in quotes. The women may be decent and have done good work,  but they don't represent anyone but Prevatt's Pet Picks. Period.

[KIS]

I didn't FAIL to do anything. What part of "I don't know" don't you understand?

As for Jyoti, I am NOT dodging any questions because I don't HAVE or KNOW the answers to these questions and have been upfront about that since Day 1. I don't volunteer for or serve Jyoti.  I am here only to serve the Grandmothers themselves in their youth outreach. It is the Grandmothers, not me, who have chosen to work with Jyoti. That, in itself, speaks volumes to me about her credibility, and MY choice is to have faith in their choice. But if you aren't satisified or think new ageish stuff is going on, ask someone else. Just don't point fingers at my responses. I've been as honest and as informative as I know how to be.

As for puff pieces, seems to me this forum BEGAN with questions about the Grandmothers legitimacy. If the "puff" you refer to are cold hard facts about their credibility, so be it.

Finally, every bit of work I've done within the native community in ANY capacity has been volunteer. Currently, it's four organizations, and I'm not paid a penny. No one tells me what to think or who to follow. That's one of the perks of volunteer work. And if I lose faith in a group, grow tired of them, or want to change directions, then I'm free to leave.

You won't be seeing many more posts from me in this forum. No, I'm NOT running away  (which I suspect a few will allege.) I have a mountain of work to do for kids and elders. That's where my time is best spent.  Obviously.

[Defend the Sacred]

As for puff pieces, seems to me this forum BEGAN with questions about the Grandmothers legitimacy. If the "puff" you refer to are cold hard facts about their credibility, so be it.

Every one of these press releases, or poorly-researched articles written by those unfamiliar with Native cultures, has contained errors; some of them glaring. If you had posted any "cold hard facts" about anyone's credibility, or answered our questions instead of dodging them, I don't think the questioning would have continued. Instead you've tried to use this forum as another promotional venue for this group.

I mean this suggestion in all sincerity and concern: I don't know how old you are, but I would strongly advise that you look into the questions Al and others are asking you about finances, control and motivations here. You may be devoting your time and energy to something that is actually harming the very causes you think you are supporting. I'm not trying to talk down to you here, but I am frankly disturbed by your insistence that these things don't matter, and that you can simply trust your heart and what people self-report about themselves. People far more experienced than you have had their time, energy and money stolen by ceremony sellers and those who are out to make a buck or a reputation on the backs of others. I hope you think about these things.

... the tribal women involved, when they have never been the issue, just how a Nuage ceremony seller may be using them?

There are still questions about some of the women on this "council", at least for me. They are all adults, and not old enough to be mentally impaired. Some of them are not much older than me, and I think they're all younger than my mother. They do have free will and a degree of agency here. I have to assume they have had plenty of time and opportunity to not only supply the biographical information that has been used, but to publicly correct it and leave the "council" if they felt they were being misrepresented. I see them as participants in this thing, not victims. And as I posted further up-thread, I have been told that at least one of them is misrepresenting her tribal affiliation, status and training. I'm sorry I can't be more specific than that, but the information was given to me privately. My source reads this forum but has so far chosen to remain silent on the topic.

Again, I assume most or maybe all of these women are sincere, and I am also assuming that at least some of them are who they say they are. But sincerity doesn't change the other problems. The idea of a council of Indigenous Elder women, "The Grandmothers", is incredibly moving. It's a powerful image. But I think that many people may be so moved by the idea that they are unwilling to look closely enough to see whether or not the romantic image lines up with the reality. This is a core issue with exploitation of Indigenous cultures and ceremonies - when outsiders think they've found a representative of a culture they have fetishized, and they're so happy to be accepted by someone that fulfills their exotic fantasy, that they are resistant to making sure the person is legitimate. They will fight to defend their fantasy rather than engage their critical faculties. Why dig for the truth when it may take away something that makes you feel good?

With all of these things I look to see who supports them: if it's only people from outside the cultures they claim, there's a problem. The ones here that I tend to think are legit are the ones I can document, with tribal sources independent of Prevatt's organization, are at least from the Nations they claim, with some degree of respect and responsibility in the community. But even in those cases, we don't necessarily know if they are ceremonial people in their Nations. And the ones where we know nothing but their self-reporting... yeah, problematic.

[KIS]

 I am 56 years with college work beyond my master's degree. No one thinks for me. No one tells me what to do. I am NOT a Grandmother's disciple. I believe in their wisdom and abilities. We share a cause which includes peace, education, and healing of the earth.

I don't take my affiliations lightly and consider myself in fine company when the Grandmothers' other supporters include the Dalai Lama (who lent his support to this summer's efforts with the Pope), a Pulitzer Prize winner, a former U.S. Senator and Ambassador, the former Chief of the Cherokee Nation, an Emmy and Peabody winner, to name a few. These people were role models and inspired me -- and millions of others across the world -- long before the Grandmothers Council was even formed.  I trust their wisdom and judgement, also.

So, if the Grandmothers and Jyoti are frauds or new agers, then I'll be "shot down" with a fine group of people.  In the meantime, we have a right to make our own choices based on informed decisions and where our hearts lead us.

I didn't write the press releases, only posted them to share information in this forum for educational reasons. If you have issues, please take them up with the authors.  In the meantime, I won't be posting anymore in the NAF forum. They are available elsewhere.

Kathryn, I mean this with all respect. Your profile at your website says "Author, priestess, researcher and editor. I dabble in visual art and music when I need a break from the words. A bit of an activist, a practical mystic, a reluctant webcrafter and alpha-bitch of the canid pack. Co-author of The CR FAQ - An Introduction to Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism ." 

The "priestess" and "Celtic" words are red flags in the fraud world, but I have no reason to believe you are a fraud because I DON'T KNOW YOU!  The grandmothers deserve the same respect. Have you even read the Grandmothers' book, must less spoken with them or attended a conference or meeting of which they are a part? Is your only knowledge that which is on the Internet or comes from (God forbid) me ?  Are your "credentials" as definitive as theirs?

I'm done posting to NAF -- at least, in the Grandmothers' Forum. Wish everyone here the best, but I'm batting my head against a brick wall. Which is ok, I suppose. This is an NAF fraud forum and such discussions are important.

There are plenty of resources out there about the Grandmothers, either as a whole or in their individual pursuits. I have named a few. I hope you learn more and maybe gain some acceptance for them. If not, that is ok, too. We each have our own path.

Good luck and best wishes to all!
Gina

[Defend the Sacred]

Is your only knowledge that which is on the Internet or comes from (God forbid) me ?

No, I've spoken to traditional people about them. That's where I heard not only questions but, in some cases, legitimate criticisms. I do have a close personal history with one of the women they have called "an elder who works with them," and one of the grandmothers is known personally to my former partner and other family members, who actually are from the community/tradition she claims.

I apologize for thinking you were young. Your tone and your involvement in youth programs made me think you were. I come from a background where youth organizations were largely youth-run (when I was one of the youth), so that influenced my perceptions of you, as well.

You can criticize, question, or attack me if you like, but I think it's an obvious diversion. I don't really care what strangers on the Internet think, especially when they work for ceremony-sellers. One of the reasons I know what to look out for with dubious groups is because in the eighties I got duped by some of them. But when I learned someone was fraudulent, misrepresenting themselves, or exploiting people, I ceased to associate with them and, when possible, informed the community of their abuses if I was in a position to do so. If you're curious about my background, feel free to read my earlier posts on the forum or google, as there's plenty out there.

I do now regret using terms as broad as "Celtic", and "Pagan" in my earlier work, as so many are abusing them. There's not much I can do about what's already in print. The terms themselves are not flawed, even if the people who misuse them are. One of the reasons they are on some of my earlier projects is that, when the work was by consensus and in a group, others felt we still need to use them because the more precise terminology, in the relevant languages, is obscure and confusing to outsiders. I guess I could have blocked consensus, but at the time I decided to respect the wishes of two of my colleagues, in particular.  I have also chosen not to give people too much to abuse in terms of actual Gaelic terminolgy, and my time spent with Native ceremonial people has made me re-evaluate how open I should be about Gaelic spiritual practices and ceremonies.

Whatever prejudices you have against my cultural or social background, or the roles I fill in my community, or the terminology others use for these things, I have never sold ceremony. I have always been honest about who I am. That's all I ask of others.

[Defend the Sacred]

Just noting that a member of ICTIG, Aama Bombo, is also being discussed in this thread, in connection to spiritual tourism and this guy from L.A. who claims to be a "Tibetan Shaman." He claims she's his teacher.

For comparison: Official ICTIG page (Bombo is second from the bottom).

[Defend the Sacred]

Just got a message that they're doing a series of workshops in... Sedona. With these events:

http://www.grandmotherscouncil.com/ (click on "events")

"November 21 (Phoenix) - Full Moon Sweat Lodge. See www.meaningfulthings.net"

When you click on "tickets" for the sweat lodge, you get:

"Home/House Clearings/Smudging - Personal Clearings - Shamanic Intuitive - Shamanic Workshops"

Page down to the posters for the fundraiser and retreat at a resort in Sedona, featuring, among others, crystal skull "shaman" people.

(Click on image for full size poster)

Retreat $ info: http://www.grandmotherscouncil.com/docs/sedona_details.pdf

"Tuition for the event is $350, U.S. $150 non-refundable deposit is due at time of registration. $200 balance is due November 1."
Lodging costs not included. Those run "$95/night Breakfast included. With a cot*: $115/night"

----------------------------------------------------

So I've got to ask... With all of this Pay to Pray and buying access to ceremonies and  "Indigenous teachers"... how is this any different from what Sun Bear did?

And even Sun Bear held his things at campgrounds and offered work exchange. I don't think even he went so far as resorts in Sedona with the Crystal Skull nuagers.

[kokumlee]

I just got an email about Mona Polucca & this Thirteen zindegenous Grandmothers thing, & it is now being fronted by this nuage group: http://www.sacredstudies.org/
I can't find anything about them... Anyone heard of this?

[Yiwah]

A few weeks back, flyers were being handed out for a screening of a new movie "For the Next 7 Generations", which is about this International Council.  I'd never heard of them before, and the website and video trailer seemed super hoaky and vague.  Plus they were charging $15 to see the movie.  All the newagey stuff on the website blog really turned me off as well.

I'm happy this discussion is going on.  The whole thing strikes me as so slick.

[nemesis]

I just got an email about Mona Polucca & this Thirteen zindegenous Grandmothers thing, & it is now being fronted by this nuage group: http://www.sacredstudies.org/
I can't find anything about them... Anyone heard of this?

I have never heard of them but a few things sound familiar and are IMO cause for concern.

from here
http://www.sacredstudies.org/gwg.html

The Roots of the Movement

Bernadette Rebienot, a Bwiti elder and grandmother of 23 had a vision for a Grandmothers' Council. She said that the women of Gabon regularly gather together in the forest to share their visions and to pray for world peace and the well being of their people. "In Gabon, when the grandmothers speak, the president listens," she said.

Bwiti is a very interesting religion IMO.  Central to Bwiti is the consumption of a drug called Ibogaine, a hallucinogenic entheogen.

IMO Iboagine is a drug with immense therapeutic potential.  Users typically have a subjective experience of being inside the minds of other people who they have hurt in the past.  The drug induces feelings of empathy and guilt and a wish to make reparations.  Within Bwiti, the drug experience consolidates bonds within a community and is useful if terms of helping initiates to understand their responsibilities towards their community.

Unfortunately Ibogaine and the feelings of guilt and remorse that it can generate, can also be abused by predators and con men and women.  

Ah, just found this

Bernadette Rebienot — Africa

Nothing happens in my country without consulting the women. Our wise people, our elders, they are like libraries. We consult them whenever we need to make large decisions. Every five years, in my country, it is the women who make a peace march. It is the grandmothers who for one month go into the forest to prepare for this peace march. They fast, they pray and invoke the ancestors. When the grandmothers speak, the president listens.

Born in Libreville, Gabon of the Omyene linguistic community, widow and mother of ten, grandmother of twenty-three. Before retiring, Bernadette worked as an educator and school administrator. Bernadette has participated in numerous national and international conferences on Traditional Medicine. She is a healer, master of the Iboga Bwiti Rite and master of Women’s Initiations. Bernadette has offered initiations and consultations for the past thirty years. She has been President of the Association of Traditional Medicine Practitioners for Gabonese Health (U.T.S.G.) since 1994.

   

(emphasis mine)

So we have Iboga / Ibogaine in the mix.

There is a wikipedia page for Bernadette Rebienot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernadette_Rebienot

This appears to be a page created by Rebienot herself and can probably be flagged as an advert.

This page is worthy of further examination, not least because of the description of tribal people as "pygmies", while no authority my understanding is that the word is an offensive way to describe tribal people and that the tribal people themselves never us the word pygmy.  Those people are also treated as second class citizens by the other tribes and I don't buy the story about "Bernadette's grandmother learned the traditional medicine ways of the  Pygmies. She shared this knowledge with her granddaughter. She taught Bernadette that plants are a special gift from the ancestors and must be protected for future generations."

http://www.nativevillage.org/INTERNATIONAL%20COUNCIL%20OF%2013%20INDIGENOUS%20GR/Each%20GR%20Home%20Page/Bernadette%20Rebienot/Bernadette%20Rebienot%20Homepage.htm

This link is also interesting
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DiosasAncianos2012/message/1370?var=1

In Borga, Spain the Grandmothers will hold four days of prayers,
teachings and workshops at an ecovillage. If you would like to attend,
please contact Marianna at arboledadegaia@....

After this, the Grandmothers will travel to Madrid to confer with
leaders of corporations that are interested in nurturing the spiritual
aspects of their businesses.
July 17th- Grandmothers travel to Spain
July 16th -23rd - Spain

(emphasis mine)

So they even do corporate workshops? Verha spirchul.

I have to say that I'm surprised that Rain Queen Mother is not involved in this as it looks like a similar kind of branding, themes and presentation.  

Another name that comes to mind, given the references to the "stargate" and the Sedona connection, is Bearcloud.  He has connections to a pseudo-tantric temple in Sedona and also has many websites with his UFO paintings, crystal skulls and other weirdness, all referencing "the Stargate".  |Not sure how firm the link is, just mentioning it in case it rings a bell for anyone else.

[Ingeborg]

The info about Bernadette Rebienot sounds interesting, since we already discussed her with KIS two years ago:

Quote from: KIS on October 21, 2008, 10:39:01 AM

2.Grandmother Bernadette Ribenot is a traditional healer and has been president of Gabon's Health Department of Traditional Medicine since 1994. Her "patients" included the King and Queen of Gabon

So meanwhile, her last name seems to have been adjusted (didn't KIS mention she got the info on Ribenot/Rebienot from a book? ? ), and apart from the claim to be head of whatever department (which she doesn't seem to be in reality, cf my contribution no 44 from October 2008), there are more impressive positions mentioned: Bwiti elder, healer, master of Iboga Bwiti rite. Now, if they'd written 'master of women's initiations' this would take on quite a different connotation than this "master of Women's Initiations". I doubt it's a spelling glitch, since French, same as English, does not spell nouns with capital letters first.

There is a certain hilarious touch to the alleged comment nemesis quoted:

Bernadette Rebienot [...] "In Gabon, when the grandmothers speak, the president listens", she said.

In 2008, Rebienot apparently promoted herself as having been a healer for the Gabon king and queen. So after this was corrected in this thread and the info given that Gabon has a presidential system, we now get references to the president. Hilarious, albeit very see-through.

[Defend the Sacred]

Shamanic Acupuncture?

Ceremonial Sweats? 

Medicine Wheel Teachings? ... and all for a fee.

Look at the latest thing a friend's link on the "13 Indigenous Grandmothers" brought up:

The Ojai Experience

THURSDAY :: 10 June 2010
4pm Arrival & Check-IN... The Journey begins...
Dinner

Evening Keynote Presentation & Talk with Jyoti
Jyoti is an internationally renowned spiritual advisor and teacher of earth based ways of prayer and the visionary behind the International Council of 13 Indigenous Grandmothers.

KeynoteTopic: A Global Movement for World Peace and Unity inspired and led by the International Council of Thirteen Indigenous Grandmothers. Jyoti will share the story of the vision that brought the grandmothers together and how that vision continues to inspire others globally to stand up for the Earth initiating sustainable projects and actions in communities around the world.

FRIDAY :: 11 June 2010
Meditation
Opening Ceremony
Introduction to the Way of Council
Medicine Wheel Teaching
Solotime in Nature
Ceremonial Sweat

SATURDAY :: 12 June 2010
Morning Dreamstar Council
Spiral Council : Integrating the Sweat Ceremony
Communal Shamanic Acupuncture & Dream Journey offered by Eric Baumgartner of Urban Remedy
Gender Councils "fishbowl" style.
Eco Shout Out: Sharing our projects and passions
Cross-Pollination
Music & Dance Celebration

SUNDAY :: 13 June 2010
Morning Dreamstar Council
Cross-Pollination
Integration Council
Harvesting the Gems and Taking a Stand
Closing Ceremony
3pm :: The Journey comes to a Close

_{< snip >}

In addition to our hermitages, our facilities also feature a pottery studio, community kitchen areas, meditation room, sweat lodge, tipi, and two kivas with fire pits.

TUITION FOR THE OJAI EXPERIENCE ::

OFF-SITE:
$275 per person
9 Organic meals provided by Divine Nourishment
Full program from Thursday evening to Sunday afternoon
Accommodations not included

To register for Off-Site follow this link:
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=W4Q4ZYU39XQSW

CAMPSITE:
$300 per person
Campsite for your tent
9 Organic meals provided by Divine Nourishment
Full program from Thursday evening to Sunday afternoon

To register for campsite follow this link:
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=MGXJ65STJV3NS

SHARED:
$350 per person
Accommodation in either a shared yurt or dome
9 Organic meals provided by Divine Nourishment
Full program from Thursday evening to Sunday afternoon

To register for shared accommodations follow this link:
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=R5FM55N4RXXT2

PRIVATE
$450 per person
Accommodation in either a Private yurt or dome
9 Organic meals provided by Divine Nourishment
Full program from Thursday evening to Sunday afternoon

To register for a private accommodations follow this link:
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=2FPV2G7MPFP9J

Contact & Information ::
For more information regarding registration, prices and a more comprehensive schedule of the event, please email :: info@projectbutterfly.org

_{< snipped some more stuff about how they practice "councils" and talking circles >}

*Center for Sacred Studies Co-founder and Spiritual Director, Jyoti is an internationally renowned spiritual advisor and teacher of earth based ways of prayer. Her background includes education in cross-cultural spiritual practices, social services program development, training at the Jung Institute in Switzerland, and extensive international travel. She has devoted her life to bringing unity to the planet, by facilitating the development of alliances between individuals who are the guardians of indigenous culture and traditional Medicine ways. She and the CSS staff convened the International Council of Thirteen Indigenous Grandmothers www.grandmotherscouncil.com and continue to organize and raise funds for the Grandmother's global work for world peace and unity. Jyoti has been named by the Grandmother's Council as their Traveling Ambassador Charged with the Mission.

bolded emphasis added.



And another page for this event

And promo photos

Larger image of poster uploaded below. Click for full size.

[educatedindian]

Solotime in Nature

Spiral Council

Gender Councils "fishbowl" style.

Eco Shout Out

Cross-Pollination

Organic meals provided by Divine Nourishment

Accommodation in either a shared yurt or dome

Every single one of these sound so damned goofy-Nuage. They're comedy gold. How can anyone seriously believe this group is in any serious way "indigenous"?

Sometimes they sound contradictory instead of the stupor-pseudo-profound way they hoped for, like how a "spiral council" sounds like all its members are slowing going down a drain...

And sometimes they sound unintentionally dirty, like the way "solotime in nature" sounds like plain old masturbation, or "fishbowl style" sounds like they're going around flashing people...

Gotta love the way they get people to actually pay to sleep in a shared yurt, so they can play at being Mongolian when they're not playing Indian. I huess shared tipis are no longer exotic enough for some Nuagers...

[Defend the Sacred]

"Feeeel the intention. Meeeerge with the energy... of the energy. With divine intention. Feeel yourself... at the center of the universe... as the Universe spirals around you... as the world revolves... around you..."

*snerk*

Is it really any wonder that people come out of these things more mentally ill than when they went in?