Part 2
It seems to me , her idea that the only people who have a role in discouraging exploitation are people enrolled in the same tribe as the exploiters is really impractical. If it is “anglos” who are providing rewards and encouraging Native people to ignore their Elders , these same “anglos” have responsibility for who and what they are empowering.
I think we all agree if an enrolled Native person is providing support only to other enrolled Native people , any problems that comes up are soley within the jurisdicition of the Native community. But as soon as an enrolled person begins serving a non native community , if there is a problem, the reality is that problem has it's roots and solutions in both communities. The definitions of what is and isn't appropriate use of cultural ways needs to come from Elders living in culturally strong Native communities , but the solution to stopping exploitation , needs to come through a respectful and cooperative relationship between both communities.
http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34966&whichpage=1Guardian
Posted - 11/03/2008
You said "No self respecting actual Native person would do what she does. " and this is EXACTLY the problem. Non Indians DO NOT know what is and is not acceptable in the Indian community (con...)
I am trying to educate my community about your community.
Betsy knows , she just doesn't want to listen. I wonder why ?
http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36064&whichpage=2Guardian
Posted - 02/06/2009 : 03:27:19 AM
quote:Originally posted by Fire_Brand
P.S Guardian.
As I have already said in one of these threads, I don't think there is anything wrong with you going after exploiters and predators. I think you doing that is a good thing since it is a huge problem.
I just think you should stop at that cause the rest such as who is Native and who is not etc is none of your business.
Now this post makes absolutely NO sense to me at all??
If I do not learn who is "native" and who is not, as defined by Indians, then how will I know who is an exploiter?
Guardian
Posted - 02/07/2009 : 09:56:43 AM
quote:Originally posted by Fire_Brand
I don't necessarily hate Guardian or anything. I just think she should stick to busting predators and exploiters and that is that.
Have no fear, I will.
However, it will not be YOUR perception of "predators and exploiters" that I will be using as my definition.
I'm glad she understands the importance of being selective about who she give the authority to define this, but I think she still has a long long long way to go when it comes to fine tuning her ability to make sensible choices in who she listens to. .
For example just recently over on indianz.com I see LAKOTA_SIOUXPERMAN AKA John Martin is back to his old tricks ... He had a disagreement with a female poster over there and dealt with it by getting verbally aggressive and lewd .
http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36290&whichpage=7LAKOTA_SIOUXPERMAN Posted - 03/10/2009
You want some drama white lady? See if you can wrap your big mouth around my huge Lakota cock you stinky skank.
FU very much
LS
In one of the links above, titled “is this you Danny Moon “ Betsy decided she was interested in confronting someone selling ceremonies as this person had the same name as Danny Moon who is a poster over on Indianz.com who criticized her . John Martin had previously said he supported Betsy 110% . it seems he likes the fact she isn't wanting to interfer with native people who start a business selling ceremonies and she is only going after people who aren't enrolled. Danny is of Mexican descent. For some reason , John Martin has been bugging Danny for years, accusing him of being Al Carroll.
In the past, John Martin has defended people like Scarlet Kinny as having a right to charge for ceremonies, but he got very angry and threatening with the Indianz.com poster Danny Moon when Betsy found an ad showing someone also called Danny Moon selling Lakota ceremonies... Once he found out it wasn't the same person, and it was 2 people with the same name, Martin said he didn't think there was really a problem – and then instead of apologizing, and seemingly for no reason at all, both him and Betsy bizarrely continued to accuse the Danny of saying and doing other things he clearly could be proven to have not done.
But putting all the personal disputes that happen over there aside, what I thought was interesting was Betsy was willing to imagine even an individual as obviously whacky as John Martin has the right to decide when it's Ok the collectively owned Spiritual practices of the Lakota people are being exploited – and even when Betsy must know many Lakota Elders have clearly said this exploitation is not OK.
http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36490&whichpage=9Guardian
Posted-03/23/2009
IF LS is satisfied with the data regarding the person who is exploiting HIS Spiritual beliefs, kewl.
Why would Betsy choose to ignore these many Elders and instead listen to one nutty individual. ..?
Thats kind of like assuming any American can say it's OK for China to start logging the National Parks.
And interestingly, although John martin has always used the fact some NAFPS members are European as a way to discredit what we do here, he likes and supports Betsy Ashby.
More to the point he probably really likes the power she is willing to give him.
Which probably leads into the strange accusations in the link below that NAFPS is secretly connected to White Nationalists. The bottom line seems to be this is a discussion about power, who has it, and who is serving whom.
Oakland "rave" to make mockery of Native cultures
http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36587&whichpage=1The information provided by NAFPS does discourage non native people from displacing the authority of the true leaders of indigenous peoples and empowering themselves through using native identiies , culture and resources, but it also discourages non native people from empowering people like John Martin as Spiritual leaders. Not that Martin has ever claimed this. It seems some people like him feel really resentful of a motley group of people like NAFPS getting in the way of them doing whatever they like with their own culture. While I understand this point of view, I can't support it, and Betsy seems to be inflamming and exploiting these feelings for her own reasons .
I don't think something like who is supporting ' White nationalists” AKA “White dominence” AKA non natives or natives serving nonnative needs at the expence of their own people can, be defined along purely racial defintions anymore than “faux Indains “ is something that can be defined purely along either or racial catagories. It's all about who has the power, and who empowers who , in hopes of getting what, for the benifit of who.
With this in mind, i'd be really curious if Betsy could explian how educating non native people about their responsibilities to respect the right of Native communities, when it comes to choosing and empowering their own leaders, and the right of these leaders to manage, protect and maintain their own resources and culture, is in any way serving the intrests of White Nationalists?
In keeping with the question of “ who has the power”, and who is being served, the key issue seems to be ensuring that non native or people of primarily non native descent respect the values and boundaries as they are defined by the indigenous leaders who are serving the needs of their own indigenous people.
So the other line of attack against NAFPS is to try and make the case that people posting here are creating their own definitions or have no business supporting the Elders who have defined these things, and it should only be enrolled Natives that give this support.
Both these arguments don't make sense as clearly many Elders have spoken on the issues and to insist their positions should not be supported by activists outside their own tribes would greatly damage tribes ability to achieve respectful and cooperative reltionships with people outside their own community . When Betsy tries to use this arguement to discredit NAFPS , it makes even less sense , as this type of outside support is what she herself claims to be doing.
As completely off the wall as some of Betsy's accusations are, some of what she says has some truth in it.
We probably all sometimes confuse our own assuptions or perceptions with the facts and I agree with Betsy this is something everyone involved in exposing misinformation needs to work to avoid. That is one of the strengths in working as a part of a large mostly open group. We all have blind spots but luckily we all usually have different blind spots.
If someone in NAFPS posts something thats wrong, it's almost certain someone will quickly come along and point out the error. One of the strengths of NAFPS is that there is lots of people with different points of view who participate here and who ask questions and challenge what they see as incorrect or incomplete information.
Of course on any public internet group it's going to happen that people say stuff that isn't true and damages someone elses reputation . This happens over on Indianz.com at least once a day, in yet I don't see Betsy bragging about having that on line group shut down , and in fact she thinks it's a great place to learn stuff. If she is really concerned about message boards where people get unfairly accused of stuff this double standard doesn't make any sense at all.
Considering all the above it seems what Betsy really objects to is the fact that NAFPS supports the protection of ceremonies which gets in the way of the nonnative people accessing what they imagine to be authentic traditional teachings / seminars / workshops and ceremonies , or utilizing parts of these to create something new.
Betsy's real concerns may have more to do with making sure White people have access to what she imagines is authentic cultural products This is evidenced by her comments below ...
http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34966&whichpage=2Guardian
Posted - 11/03/2008
The people who have the MONEY and/or political clout these frauds want are more often than not concerned with the legitimacy of the people they give their time, money, and efforts to.
This is evidenced over and over again by how quickly Anglo benefactors drop a fraud once he or she is exposed as one. This is ESPECIALLY true for those non Indians who donate to what they think are Indian causes simply because they think Indians got a really raw deal. The "guilt givers" A huge portion of the fundage the frauds receive is coming from Grants and donations made by people who have no contact with Indian cultures at all, nor do they really want any. They just want to help a group of people who got royally screwed so they donate to what they think is an Indian School, Shelter, Heating Assistance Program, etc. whatever sad sounding scam the fraud is running.
Likewise, when an Anglo pays a hefty chunk of change for ANY seminar, class, etc. they ARE NOT happy when they hear the Teacher pulled her credentials out of her butt. There are some people who believe they are here on this Earth to learn, and they get REALLY ticked off when they find out they have been taught a pack of lies.
Even those who follow the Faux Indians out of ego alone do not wish to be associated with someone who has been widely exposed as a fraud ....bad for the image you know <BEG>
I KNOW I will not be able to stop all of them, but I intend to make on hell of a dent in their bank accounts.
Almost all of Betsy's complaints about NAFPS are directed specifically at Al.. Some of what she complains about has some grounds in reality. Al is human and sometimes makes mistakes and like all of us doesn't always notice or want to deal with it.
For example, in his post above he says Betsy IS in a polygamous relationship . Which isn't true. What I read was she WAS in a long term realtionship with a woman who she reffers to as her significant other and she says this womans child called her Mom and so did another womans child who she lived with. Also Al says Betsy was a follower of Brooke , and Betsy denies having any connection to Brooke or being her follower – If this is true maybe the fact Betsy went so far as to get NAFPS silenced because she says Al thought Brooke Medicine Eagle and Brooke Schiavi were both the same person, is where Al got this impression. It does seem Betsy has put a lot more effort into criticizing NAFPS than the frauds she claims to want to expose.
Usually Al's mistakes can be explained as he's busy and has lots on his mind and sometimes the details get confused. Other times i think maybe he just gets feeling over whelmed with people trying to find a way to shove elephant sized guilt into every mouse sized crack in his character and he just dosn't want to give people another opprotunity .
Considering the intensity of dealing with some of the stuff he does , he seems to do a pretty good job of keep things in perspective. I think most of us look to him for leadership, not because he makes him self important in any way, but because he usually provides a strong stable sensitive and intellegent response. He is quite reliable about providing this and because of this he does act like the back bone of the group . One of the things i really appreciate about Al is his unusual combination of having a thick skin and enough sensitivity to respond to some really complex and painful issues. Very few people would have the unique skill set required to do what he does here. I see how much time and energy he gives to this project, with little or no compensation , putting up with constant harrassment and even if he does make mistakes sometimes i still really respect him for all he does here.
One of the ways people attempt to undermine the information provided here is through attacks on Al's character, as if the credibility of what thousands of Elders has said depends on Al being able to get everything in his life perfect beyond reproach.
One of the biggest complaints people make about Al is that he sometimes claims to be Mescalero Apache without saying he is Irish / Mexican / unenrolled Mescalero Apache every time. I can understand some people would find this annoying and anybody who does this without being enrolled is setting themselves up to get criticized.
I don't think claiming a tribe as your primary identity if the tribe doesn't claim you is a good idea . I know some people get confused about this, because there is or was many traditional leaders who acknowledge unenrolled descendents as their People and many people who have been acknowledged in this way feel it's Ok to self identify in the same way.
With all the people trying to worm their way into faux entitlements exploiting the generousity of this type of acknowledgement , it has become increasingly obvious that when unenrolled people call themselves Indians it can be the first step to faux entitlements, and it is those faux entitlements that creates problems, so generally speaking , i don't think it's a good idea for people who aren't claimed by their tribe to claim the tribe , as their strongest or first identity . I don't know the details of Al's life , but considering all he does to discourage people with faux entitlements , I'm not sure how much that matters. I don't see where he is supporting anyone making claims to faux entitlements , or making any himself,. I've never seen Al "teach" anything about Apache traditions or culture which isn't the most basic facts which could be found in a text book, and as already pointed out, the idea that advocates for respecting Native rights must be enrolled in the tribe they are advocating for is silly. So I don't think this is a major problem , though I do understand it is a sensitive issue and it could be irritating to some people who for good reason object to unenrolled descendents identifying themselves as being of a tribe that doesn't formally claim them.
Betsy with her super sleuth data mining abilities seems to have ignored the fact that Al never hid that he is a mix of Mexican and American Indian with strong ties to the Mexican community. Mixed blood people frequently feel more of a connection with a particualr aspect of their heritage at different times in different communities, the information he was mixed blood has always been publicly posted and there for all the world to see.
http://www.yforum.com/content/default.aspx?pg=bestof%5Cbest090599.htmlQuestion:
Is it true that people in Mexico do not like Hispanic Americans?
I never felt any hateful prejudice against me, but sometimes an amused belief that I wasn't "really" Mexican because I'm much taller than your average Mexican, I dress "American" (though in America I'm seen as dressing "cholo"), my Spanish has a lot of slang, and so on. (con...)Many of us recognized that, to a white racist, "somos illegales," we're all seen as wetbacks, and we have to overcome that together.
POSTED 9/7/1999
A.C.C., W Lafayette, IN, United States, <bigi__@yahoo.com> , Mexican and American Indian, Grad student, Over 4 Years of College, Mesg ID 93199922018
And posted the same day ..
Question:
Why do some whites attempt to use aspects of Native American tribal religions, often through paying money for something? And when they do, why do they insist it's an attempt to 'honor' or 'join' us, when for the most part they don't live in or work for the benefit of our communities?
It's just sad that many, like Carlos Castaneda and Heheyosts Storm, have exploited this for their own greed and ego. To any whites who want to learn about us, why don't you try talking to us and not these snake oil salesmen? Come to a powwow or read God Is Red, one of the best books out there on native spirituality.
POSTED 9/7/1999
A.C.C., W Lafayette, IN, United States, <bigi__@yahoo.com> , Mexican and American Indian, Grad student, Over 4 Years of College, Mesg ID 93199923723
From the film Spirits for Sale
http://www.journeyman.tv/?lid=59085&tmpl=transcript10:09:08:19 – 10:09:42:21
Al Carroll: My name is Al Carroll, my background, my ancestry, my heritage, is Mescalero Apache. I'm also Mexican and Irish. I teach American history. San Antonio has about one million people. When I grew up, it was a very racist town to grow up in. I was getting in fights almost every week I was in school. Usually over some racist comment, over being called I'm a redskin or a red back or a prairie nigger. Or being told I look like a nigger, or some other racist remark
So, it looks to me Al has always been open about the fact he is mixed in his identity. And with no claims of faux entitlements, I don't agree that that someones mixed racial identity makes them a 'faux indian” who deserves to be annihilated.
I began my comments on Betsy's efforts to discredit the information provided here , with the example of the ad which Betsy posted with no URL in 2006. I see where she has now pointed out 3 other similar entries made through Al's old yahoo account which refer to his interest in polygamy or his search for a second wife.
I talked to someone who has known Al for about 10 -11 years who was involved in the original Our Red Earth group. I think Al was also involved with this in the same time frame, and that is how this woman got to know Al. This person says around the same time those ads were placed, she had her yahoo account hacked and some inappropriate stuff put in her profile to do with her work , making it sound like she had inappropriate relationships with some of the people she worked with . At the time Al was involved in doing academic research on indigenous polygamy. So maybe that is the explanation as to how those entries came to be made using Al's yahoo account.
At this point I'm not sure what to think. I guess it's entirely possible Al did something foolish when he was younger and with so many people looking to find fault with him he doesn't want to admit this ... But it seems odd he would deny this if he was the one to make those posts. These posts do say he is looking for a second wife, not someone to secretly have sex with. Wives are not usually easy to keep secret, and if Al was comfortable enough to be advertising for a second wife, it doesn't make a lot of sense that he would suddenly be shy about people finding out he did this.
So my first guess is that Al also had his yahoo account hacked. If Betsy actually thinks Al's possible potential polygamous tendencies might be a danger to the public. I suppose it's fair for Betsy to bring the stuff she found to the publics attention, though I'm not sure it's at all relevant to what he does here and I don't see any good reason to try and humiliate Al with this. I've never seen any clues he is a womanizer , still looking, or that he is less than happily married to his one wife. NAFPS isn't a dating service and I can't imagine Al has much face to face contact with other NAFPS members .
Part 3 in a minute
(just edited for typos and garbled wording )
