Why is Protecting Lakota Ceremonies even "controversial"?

[debbieredbear]

There is also things going on with prisons and native prisoners. I know of one guy that now lives in Canada, but was in  prison in Colorado. In prison, he was taken into Lakota type sweat lodges. It turned his life around. However, now that he is out, he sundanced at a dance in Colorado that is,I am told mostly non-Lakota ex-prisoners. Plus, when he lived on a rez here in my state, he was like a missionary in his zeal to bring his adopted ways to those people. He was critical of the ones who did sweats in their way as they were doing it "wrong." He even told an elder that he was soing it wrong at the prison near the rez. I mean the guy was 75 and going in to prisons still to help young native men and he got told he was doing things wrong!  Oh, and he told one of my friends that he had no interest in his own culture, or that of his wife because the Lakota ways were more "macho"! But he is isn't alone, because I recently read a letter in a tribal newspaperin this state written by a young inmate and he sprinkled his letter with Lakota words. I am all for bringing ceremony to prisoners, but then when they get out, they need to understand that they should be looking to their own culture and elders. Trying to learn their own language.

[earthw7]

Thanks so much for the feedback  .

I had the impression the vote educuatedindian mentioned , which was 95% in favor of excluding non native people from sensitive ceremonies was something different than the meeting in 2003 . Maybe Al could say where he got that ?

Earthw7

I know of NO ceremony that gives anyone rights to hold ceremonie outside the community.

I'm not sure I am understanding what you are saying ?

I have known quite a few non Lakota people who claim they have the right to lead a Sweat Lodge Ceremony , outside the Lakota community , and this permission came for Lakota elders. These are mostly Native people in urban areas . Some are questionable, but others I always assumed were legitimate . A few of them live in Native communities where these traditions are accepted, or they live in an urban area but have strong support from their community . Are they all imagining they have a right to lead these ceremonies? I would be a little shocked if this was true ! Maybe you just mean no one has ever been given the right to lead a Sundance outside of the traditional territories where these were practiced ?

I did read something about this here ;

http://www.thepeoplespaths.net/News2002/0209/Serbin020922LetterToNavajoSundancers.htm

Sal White Horse, a registered member of the Sioux Nation

"Several years ago a few Navajo people that live at Big Mountain started to hold Sundances, the Navajo people also claim to have permission for this? I would like to challenge their claim, to have permission to hold
Sundances. I have personally asked Lakota Sundance Chiefs, they ALL said they never gave permission or never will give permission for a Sundance to be held off a Lakota Reservation! There are a few Lakota people claiming to be Medicine men/Shaman and Elders, that are going around giving permission for many Lakota ceremonies. These Lakota people have no right to do this, if the Navajo people at Big Mountain would have taken the time to contact a Lakota Reservation and spoken or written an Actual Chief, Elder, Medicine man they would have learned this."

I also read where Arvol Looking Horse said people need to earn the right to lead a Sweat Lodge Ceremony by participating in the Sundance for 4 years .

Does this mean anyone who Sundances 4 years has the right to lead a Sweat Lodge Ceremony outside the Lakota community  ?

I didn't realize how much I don't know about Lakota culture and community ! Quite an eye opener!

The people who get posted in NAFPS usually are obviously questionable or completely bogus . If someone seems credible and says they were given the right to lead a Lakota ceremony and names Elders ( who might not have great reputations  , but who are Lakota ) ,what should people ask or think about that ? If no non Lakota has ever been given legitimate permission to hold ceremonies outside the community, there might be a lot more loose cannons out there than I ever imagined ! ? 

This is what we are taught you must spend Four years learning about the ceremonies, then vision quest for four years then if you have a good reason Sun Dance for four years. At this time you are given the right to run a sweat lodge for prayer. There is no ceremony to give right outside our culture. No elder has the right to give another permission to do with ceremonies. These rights are earned and then if you are of good mind people will follow you. All of these people who claim to have these rights should be working to help the indian people.

[earthw7]

You will never be able to control what I call the "loose cannons", but you can identify them and educated people to what they are doing. Good job.

This is something we know but all that means is we keep fighting to protect ourselves.
The film is coming out will help a little and sites like these.
If we stood by and done nothing it would be my fault.

We have fought all our lives so it is nothing new.

When I was young I use to say why was I born an Indian, it seem we have
to fight everyday of our lives, my grandma said IT IS SO WE CAN LIVE.
I want my people to live

[Cetan]

I don't want to get into this but just want to clarify one thing - Leonard Crow Dog is not from Pine Ridge, he is from the Grass Mountain Community on Rosebud and as far as I know (my ex's dad was Leonards brother and the family land is down the road) Leonard was born and raised in his home community, and he to this day never has learned to read or write and English not his first language. Many people in the community will say he is a bad man but a good medicine man, he is generous to a fault and when he gets drunk everyone around him gets drunk also.
And what about Arvol running ceremonies off rez for non-Lakota, non Indians and charging for them? And this I have personally witnessed.

[frederica]

http://www.swnkacangi.com/contents/eng/history.html       This is pretty much what was said. He advised AIM then opened up the SunDance. This is from his Offical Web site. 

[Cetan]

What I posted was in response the the comment
Leonard is a prime example of this he lived in Minneapolis. His father was a spiritual leader so he brought all of these people to Pine Ridge to learn.
Wopila

[Moma_porcupine]

Earthw7
What you say about "if a person is of good mind people will follow them " , is really interesting , because , what many non Lakota people assume is that a person who has earned the right to lead ceremonies must be trustworthy . So , what you seem to be saying is maybe they are ,and maybe they aren't , and in the Lakota way it is not necessarily the most mature or trustworthy people who would earn these rights . So I guess even if someone is known to have earned these rights , with the support of Lakota Elders ,  people still should be careful if something doesn't feel right and not assume they MUST be trustworthy ?   
 
Cetan

And what about Arvol running ceremonies off rez for non-Lakota, non Indians and charging for them? And
this I have personally witnessed.

I never saw where anyone has ever said anything about non native people not being able to participate in a Sweat Lodge ceremony , as long as whoever is leading it feels this is Ok .The place where the line seems to be being drawn is that non native people can't LEAD the ceremony . I know this is a line a lot of non native people find very hard to accept . Awwwwww

Though I don't know Arvol Looking Horse at all , I have a hard time believing anyone who would take the flak he has for saying there should be no charge for ceremonies , would then turn around himself and charge for a ceremony . That sounds completely crazy . Like sticking a sign on yourself that says KICK ME . Whatever Arvol may or may not be doing, ALL the Elders i have ever known , say it isn't OK to charge for Ceremonies and traditional ways of Prayer . So even if Arvol has some personal problem as you claim , at least he has done the very difficult job of standing up to those who want to say charging is OK and has reminded them it isn't .

As I already said , last time you dissed Arvol , in my opinion , people who have the responsibility of carrying a collective cultural tradition would do best to not cause anyone to feel any lines had been crossed . Assuming that is possible . From what I have seen , the people who don't like the idea of protecting ceremonies would find a way to make an issue out of ANYTHING Arvol does , or start a rumor he did something he didn't do just to have something to complain about , so in this case , maybe it isn't possible . And it would be real confusing remembering where the line was , if someone was looking to critize you no matter what you did . All I know is that anything that connects us with the Sacred should not be sold , and traditional ceremonies need to be practiced in the communities where they originated to stay healthy . I support what Arvol is saying on this .

[educatedindian]

The vote I mentioned before I believe was either at Pine Ridge or Rosebud rez. It was aimed specifically at David Swallows, but the wording was general enough to apply to anyone who did anything similar. It prohibited enrolled members from holding ceremonies either on or off rez that allowed non Natives in and charged them. I'm pretty sure it was a bit before Looking Horse and Red Cherries led the series of meetings, perhaps 2001 or 2002. It was an article I found a long time ago that Trish posted at her old site. I don't have to handy, sorry, but can look for it in our archives of the old group.

There was also another "vote", more of an opinion poll, that I've mentioned before. A poll of Anishnaabe found something like 90-95% opposed to letting non Natives in their ceremonies, not just leading or charging them money.

And of course the Hopi have barred numerous frauds and posted warnings on them on their tribal website for a while, while the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma actually has a committee compiling a list of all the frauds, both individuals and groups. That, plus all the numerous resolutions passed by one gathering or elders and/or activists over the years, from the late 70s on, should be enough to convince anyone that Native opinion is overwhelingly against exploiters. I really think the number of NDNs who think it's OK is probably only in the hundreds out of millions. So a fraction of 1% vs >99% hardly counts as "controversial." It's only in the approach taken to limit the damage that NDNs really disagree.

[frederica]

here is a group of those articles from mostly 2003. Most of that disagreement was with the Benard Red Cherries wanting to present the Proclamation to the Government. People disagreed, he did this anyway. http://www.geocities.com/wahohwahpe/ban20.html

[earthw7]

I don't want to get into this but just want to clarify one thing - Leonard Crow Dog is not from Pine Ridge, he is from the Grass Mountain Community on Rosebud and as far as I know (my ex's dad was Leonards brother and the family land is down the road) Leonard was born and raised in his home community, and he to this day never has learned to read or write and English not his first language. Many people in the community will say he is a bad man but a good medicine man, he is generous to a fault and when he gets drunk everyone around him gets drunk also.
And what about Arvol running ceremonies off rez for non-Lakota, non Indians and charging for them? And this I have personally witnessed.

Hi Hawk so your from Rosebud huh!
I have to admit I am not a fan of Leonard, sorry to say.
I know that as a mediicne man he has power but i hate to see the abuse
and new age stuff that come from what he is doing.

[Charlie Two Shirts]

Hi Hawk so your from Rosebud huh!
I have to admit I am not a fan of Leonard, sorry to say.
I know that as a mediicne man he has power but i hate to see the abuse
and new age stuff that come from what he is doing.

From what "he" is doing or from what others are doing? If the heart of a bonsai is rotten to begin with can you blame the one that is training it which way it should grow? pilamaya

[earthw7]

Hi Hawk so your from Rosebud huh!
I have to admit I am not a fan of Leonard, sorry to say.
I know that as a mediicne man he has power but i hate to see the abuse
and new age stuff that come from what he is doing.

From what "he" is doing or from what others are doing? If the heart of a bonsai is rotten to begin with can you blame the one that is training it which way it should grow? pilamaya

What the heck is a bonsai???

[frederica]

Bonsai=Japanese tree(usually minature) But we are not dealing with trees, we are dealing with human's. And they should not be doing this in the first place. That is the point.

[Charlie Two Shirts]

My point is, THEY are the ones responsible for their actions, NO ONE ELSE. In That way I think we are on the same page.

[frederica]

That's right, and as Earth said, you don't have to agree with them you and  feel sorry for the harm they do.