Orginial Keetoowah Society

[Frederica Bickle]

These are on line websites. Looks like they are operated by William Scott Anderson.                        http://www.keetoowah-society.org/                        http://www.keetoowah-society.org/factions.htm     http://www.prophecykeepers.com

[debbieredbear]

Yep they are. And "scotty" as my friend used to call him, is not Indian. She knew both of his parents. Good white Mormon folk. No Indian.

[TrishaRoseJacobs]

They're run by scotty and a woman named Dot Deagle, a real piece of work. Anywho members of the the actual Nighthawk society I've been in contact with are looking into it, and none too pleased I gather. After I added them to my website they accused me on their own of practicing witchcraft. lol .

[VHawkins]

Trisha, where is your website?

It is just a matter of time until people like Scotty start up their own version of a Stomp Dance if they can manage to get the title to a few acres of land somewhere.

Someone once told me his old buddies at "Amansoquath Cherokee" used to have stomp dances and they had 8 benches -- not 7 -- with the 8th for the "lost" Bear Clan. I really don't now any details, tho.

vance

[TrishaRoseJacobs]

http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi

and the page on this bunch in particular is at

http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/frauds/frd0077.htm

I bet your're right on that Vance. Wouldnt' surprise me at all to hear of Scotty and that bunch pretending to do their own Stomp Dances.

[VHawkins]

Thanks. I like your website. From now on when someone on some forum starts babeling about "their grandma was a Cherokee healer" or something like that, and that she grew up in "New Jersey . . ." I'l have a link to show people, if you don't mind.

Here is a response from a Cherokee official about fake Cherokee spiritual advisors. It is found online at

http://www.turtletown.org/html/fakes.htm

Richard L. Allen. EdD, a research and policy analyst and citizen of the Cherokee Nation replies to a person who has queried him about a sale of "shamanistic lessons" over the internet. Dr. Allen's statement is not an official statement of the Cherokee Nation .

======================

Greetings:

The Cherokee Nation is overwhelmed with those charlatans who fraudulently claim to be shaman, spiritual leaders or descendents of a Cherokee princess.

Such individuals make such claims without ever having lived within the Cherokee communities. They claim to be descended from some nebulous and mysterious ancestor who was from "a reservation in North Carolina" (there is only one) or "a reservation in Oklahoma" (there are none). The ancestor is never just a plain ordinary everyday Cherokee citizen but a "Cherokee Princess," a "Cherokee Shaman," or a "Cherokee Pipe carrier" none of which actually exist or ever have. Those who claim to be "shaman" do not reside within the known boundaries of the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma.

Cherokee medicine people and spiritual leaders are known to the Cherokee people and do not practice medicine for a fee nor sell "shamanic" lessons to anyone. They do not advertise their services through any form of media and certainly not over the internet.

Traditional Cherokee healers and spiritual leaders provide their services to the Cherokee people. A Cherokee medicine person or spiritual leader is fluent in the Cherokee language and would conduct any medical or spiritual practices by using the Cherokee language. Therefore, our medicine people are those who were born of a Cherokee mother and a Cherokee father and would have been reared within a Cherokee community speaking the Cherokee language. Our traditional Cherokee healers and spiritual leaders are humble people and would not present themselves as such nor "hang out a shingle" so to speak.

Cherokee medicine people are acknowledged and recognized by members of the Cherokee community as effective healers and leaders. It is the recognition of the Cherokee people that validates these persons as medicine people and healers not self-proclaimation. We may provide them small gifts, a token amount of money or foodstuffs in payment for their services. They do not charge for their services nor would they withhold their services when asked and they certainly would not prescibe payment by credit card.

Cherokee medicine people may provide services to recognized members of other tribes or may provide services to non-Indians who would seek them out for treatment, but certainly would not mix their spirituality or medicine with that of other nations.

Cherokee medicine and spiritual practices do not include tarot cards, palmistry, psychic readings or sweatlodge ceremonies.

One may assume that anyone claiming to be a Cherokee "shaman, spiritual healer, or pipe-carrier," is equivalent to a modern day medicine show and snake-oil vendor.

You have my permission to print this response as is.
   
   Richard L. Allen. EdD
   Research & Policy Analyst
   Cherokee Nation
   P.O. Box 948
   Tahlequah, Oklahoma 74465

[debbieredbear]

Comanche Lodge issued the following warning on this group:

Please feel free to distribute, please help us to combat the
exploitation of
the American Indian People!

False Indian Organization Warning issued by Comanche Lodge.

For Immediate Release:

According to the authorities, an organization registered online as
the "Original Keetoowah Society" is operated by none other than
William Scott
Anderson of Cabool Missouri.

This individual is claiming to teach Cherokee Spirituality and
Religion over
the Internet.

The individual registered as operating this false organization has
also been
linked with numerous bogus Indian Tribes over the years that
includes
the
following:

The Southern Cherokee Nation, Indian Creek Band of Chickamauga
located in
Deltona Florida, Western Cherokee Nation of Missouri, and last but
not least
the Amonsoquath Cherokees led by convicted felon Martin "Walking
Bear" Wilson.

All of the above mentioned groups are entirely false.

Anderson for several years was claiming on the Internet that the
Amonsoquath
Group he represented was a federally recognized Indian Tribe.  
Anderson was
known to solicit donations online for several years under the false
auspices
of maintaining an Indian Reservation.

It is to be noted that the State of Missouri has no Indian
Reservations.


In 1996 Anderson was known to exploit the Lakota People by also
soliciting
donations on New Age Newsgroups while claiming to have received a
vision from
the Virgin Mary who Anderson claimed was the Lakota Peoples Sacred
White
Buffalo Calf Woman.

Anderson at that time claimed that the White Buffalo Calf Woman
instructed
him to go to Bosnia to stop World War III from taking place by
teaching
Europeans the Lakota Religion, which would, according to him, spread
world
peace.

Anderson claimed this event would take place by gathering the people
of the
world in the very same way as was seen in the Hollywood Movie Close
Encounters of the Third Kind.

Anderson was caught committing this perverse exploitation by several
American
Indians.  These individuals were informed that Anderson was begging
for money
on several New Age/Witchcraft discussion groups under the titles of
Pipe
Carrier, Native Peace Delegate, and also was representing himself as
an
American Indian Prophet in the spirit of Wovoka the famous Paiute
Ghost Dance
teacher.

As a result of this intervention, Anderson was quickly exposed as a
fraud to
the American Indian Community through several popular Native
Newsgroups.

William Scott Anderson has now turned his greedy eyes towards the
Cherokee
Nation and is currently engaged in exploiting the names of respected
Cherokee
Indian Leaders as a way to solicit money online in yet another
monetary scam
being done in the name of the American Indian People.

Once again this Charlatan William Scott Anderson is exploiting yet
another
respected American Indian Nation, and he is currently engaged in
exploiting
the name of the Honorable Cherokee Chief Chadwick Smith.

In addition to these gross unethical abuses of honorable Indian
leaders,
William Scott Anderson also exploits the name of the Chief's own
ancestor the
respected Redbird Smith as yet another way for Anderson to beg for
money
online in the name of American Indian People.

Please be advised that none of the scams and the numerous false
organizations
operated by William Scott Anderson either now or in the past have
been
authentic American Indian organizations and they have all been based
entirely
on falsehood and deceit.

William Scott Anderson is a wicked fraud and a very well known
exploiter of
the American Indian People and as such this depraved and twisted
individual
should be shunned by all.

Anderson is proud to boast associations with such dubious exploiters
of
American Indian People such as Robert "Ghostwolf" Franzone, Harley
Swiftdeer,
Brooke Medicine Eagle, and many other well-known frauds who
continually
exploit the American Indian People.

If you or anyone you know has been victim to the fraud perpetuated
by
William
Scott Anderson, please report such incidents to the following
authorities:

United States Department of Justice:

U.S. Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20530-0001
Internet: http://www.usdoj.gov/

Department of Justice Main Switchboard - 202-514-2000
Office of the Attorney General - 202-353-1555

All My Relations!
-Quohadi

http://www.comanchelodge.com/

[educatedindian]

I'm glad Comanche Lodge posted this. I think Anderson is long overdue to pay for his crimes.

I think NAFPS should play a big part in getting the Justice Dept. to go after him. We know as much about him as anyone, outside of maybe Com Lodge or the frauds he works with.

We have the word of Debbie's parents about who his family is and his real heritage.

We have Bryant's word about how he, a white guy from Texas, was misrepresented as a "Mexican Indian prophet".

Anderson should already be on file with the ATF because of the felon he sheltered.

And while Trish might not agree, I'd argue his labelling her a "witch" could be taken as a none-too-subtle threat. Further west on places like the Navajo rez, people labelled witches get shunned or worse. There were actual witch hunts as late as the 60s.

I urge everyone with anything, any knowledge of all of Anderson's scam and lies to write to the DOJ and urge an investigation, much like they did to the Nuwaubian leader Malachi York. While Anderson, unlike York, is no pedophile as far as we know, he has harmed an awful lot of people by defrauding them.

I'm not sure which section of the DOJ this would fall under, but here's some addresses to try.

DOJ email: AskDOJ@usdoj.gov.
List of local FBI field offices http://www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm

[TrishaRoseJacobs]

That's true, but like I said ? these people haven't really the faintest idea as to what they're going on about.

I doubt Anderson knows any Navajo at all, let alone tradish people. Or Cherokee for that matter.

BTW - I tried contacting the FBI about him and never got a reply.

[wolfhawaii]

I ran across this "Original Keetoowah Society" website in 2004 I think during some online research. It sounded off to me right away, as all of the spiritual Keetoowahs  I know shun publicity. I asked at my grounds if anyone had ever heard of this John Redhat Duke who was the "elder" to "Dotty" Daigle....no one ever heard of him. While it may be true that he may have been an enrolled CNO member, that is a far cry from being a Nighthawk Keetoowah. Scott Anderson has been affiliated with the various "Northern Cherokee" groups in the past. This website is pure exploitation through hijacking the spiritual traditions of actual spiritual Keetoowahs, and persons seeking knowledge of real traditional Keetoowah spirituality should not be fooled by these posers....this information is not written down but carried by its adherents in their hearts and passed down in the families. Regards, Steve

[frederica]

John Red Hat Duke passed away several years ago. The site was run by Scott Anderson, Blue Otter, known exploiter and fraud. There is a lot on this forum about both the Society and Anderson. frederica

[Moma_porcupine]

These folks came up in the thread below;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1604.msg10119#new

I was curious and did some digging, and was surprised to see how little critical discussion I could find about this group on the web or even in NAFPS . Here is some more;

http://www.wovoca.com/prophecy-mormon.htm

MORMON PROPHECY: FUTURE CHASTENING OF THE LATTER DAY SAINTS

by William Scott Anderson,  BlueOtter -- the "Prophecykeeper"

"Mormonism's founders, Joseph Smith, Heber C. Kimball, Brigham Young, John Taylor, et al, all made a sincere effort to walk the Red Path, encouraged other Mormons to do the same. I attempt to document these teachings on this page. I am thankful to the Creator for helping myself, the Prophecykeeper, take my baby steps on the Red Path, or as we Cherokees call it, The Beauty Way.

Unfortunately, those early efforts of the Mormons church's founders are ignored and/or suppressed these days. And even more unfortunately for all of us on the planet, some ethnically Hopi converts to the Mormon Church, who have no respect for the traditions of their own ancestors, now control the B.I.A. controlled Hopi Council. That council is far from being the representative of any of the Hopi's original teachings, and makes life miserable for the Eldest Hopi Elders who are still attempting to life the Hopi Lifeway. Hopi Rangers (Law Enforcement Officers) have showed a pattern of harassment of sincere people that attempt to visit and learn from Hopi traditional elders.

The BIA "Indian Reorganization Act" non-traditional Hopi Council, which is illegal under United Nations Laws, recently took steps to suppress The Hopi Prophecy as part of their scheme, claiming that the two-hearted US Government puppet council had rights that their traditional government did not."Intellectual Property" is what they claimed.(con..)

There is a few problems in these statements.

First Anderson appears to be admiting he and his friends have been rejected by the Hopi and that they aren't even allowed in the Hopi communities. Which does not fit with the claim that people associated with the prophsy keepers were recognized by the Hopi as being the long lost White brother of the Hopi prophesies, as is claimed in places like Wikipedia and answers.com. ( see bottom of this post )

The allegation this is because the Hopi are now controlled by the BIA is just silly, as the Hopi have a strong culture which is obviously controled by traditional Hopi leaders and the BIA has just as much control over every other Native community, and makes no effort to keep these other communities from being over run by non natives " wanting to learn".

The Hopi specifically state that they are not open to having bits and pieces of their culture riped off and corrupted by outsiders and this explaination makes much better sense to me than that the BIA is keeping away exploiters and New Age nut bars. It would be nice but I don't think the BIA would be interested in making itself that useful.

http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US2/PAPS/ek-hopi.html

The Hopi people strongly believe that their religion is a private issue, which does not concern non-Hopis. According to their values non-Hopis should under no circumstances be converted to the Hopi religion. In part this is due to the fact that the Hopi religion is so complex that it is impossible for one person to know or understand it thoroughly. However, the Hopi also feel that their religion is tied to their ancestry and past; therefore it is impossible for people outside the tribe to be a part of the religion (Hopi Tribe, Cultural).

The Hopi desire for privacy has been greatly promoted over the years by several non-Hopi individuals who have gained financially by proclaiming themselves experts on Hopi spirituality or even by claiming they have the knowledge and the permission of the Hopi tribe to perform Hopi ceremonies (Hopi Tribe, Cultural).

For these reasons the Hopi have restricted the privileges of outside visitors to the Hopi villages. Certain places and ceremonies are out of bounds for visitors, either completely or at given times, and all forms of unauthorized recording, e.g. photography, sketching, videotaping, etc. are strictly forbidden (Hopi Tribe, Cultural).

The next thing that seems to be a falsification of history is Anderson claiming the original Morman beliefs were similar to those of any of the indigenous peoples they met.

Mormons believe American Indians are a lost tribe of Israel. As I mentioned in the thread linked to above, this belief goes back to the early 1600's when people who believed everyone descended form Adam and Eve had to find a way to explain how these descendents could have ended up on other continents.

The Mormons believe the Indians are a lost tribe of Israelis or Laminites, but they don't believe Indians were just lost physically;

http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon34.html

Mormon doctrine claims that Lehi's children eventually became two warring factions, which included the good, white Nephites and the bad, brown Lamanites. The Lamanites, eventually killed all the Nephites by 500 A.D. But the bad, brown Laminates continued to live on and are now called Native Americans.

The Book of Mormon originally stated that when Lamanites converted they would then become "white and delightsome." In 1981 the church decided to replace the word "white" with "pure."

Even more bizarre, Anderson who apparently comes from a Mormon background,  which he still is associated with, is working with people promoting a strange New Age version of the Jewish traditions;

http://www.torah-voice.org/Speaking%20itinerary.htm

Maggid ben Yoseif /  Jerusalem Torah Voice in Exile

     THURSDAY, JANUARY 10, 2008

Tenrivers and ben Yoseif, and MbY's LDS co-spokesmen, Will Blueotter and Dr. Stephen Jones, are scheduled to meet with Elder Russell Neilsen of the Quorum of the 12, and Elder Marlin Jensen of the Council of 70, the prophetic and spiritual hierarchy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Salt Lake City. Jensen is also the LDS historian.

 
NOVEMBER 2007 - Ephraim and Manti, UT

ben Yoseif will be visiting with and speaking to various small groups of followers of the Book of Mormon ... who are not necessarily Mormons!

For More Information, please contact LDS co-spokesman:

Will "Blueotter"

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as Mormans, believe in Jesus Christ as the only savior, a belief system which is completely incompatible with the most fundamental Jewish beliefs .

http://judaism.about.com/od/beliefs/a/jesus.htm

Though it may be that someday all religions will recognize a common philosophical root, claiming the original beliefs that founded the Mormon church are the same as those held by the Cherokee , the Hopi or the Jews is as warm and fuzzy as claiming the original Mormon beliefs are the same as Hinduism or Buddhism or the Druids. 

Maggid ben Yoseif is associated with Dorothy Daigle;

http://ezinearticles.com/?Hopi-Prophecy,-Exciting-Fulfillment-Happening!&id=459208

Dottie has received some revelation regarding the Hopi since Elder Red Hat's passing in December of 2003. She was told by Creator that the prophecy in Ezekiel 37 stating that He would unite the House of Judah and the House of Joseph as one, is the same event as the completion of the Hopi migration back to Jerusalem. She understands from Maggid ben Yoseif that this event must take place before the end of 2008 or else another judgment would be put on the House of Israel, the Ten Northern Tribes of which The House of Joseph is apparently the leader.

And both Anderson and Daigle claim to have been taught by John Red Hat Duke.

http://www.prophecykeepers.com/mitton.html
 

Will Blue Otter is he spokesperson for the White Roots of Peace Council. He is a native of Minnesota, but his mother's home is Mississippi. He is Cherokee and Powhatan by blood, being a descendant of Wahunsunacock (King Powhatan) and his Kituwah Clan wife AmoPostuskee/AmoPotoiskee (The Spring or The Well) and his daughter Matoaka aka "Pocahontas."

In 1985, a full blood native man appeared to him in a dream suggesting he follow up clues in his Native American genealogy This later led Blueotter to Zula Brinkerhoff of St. George, Utah (Daughter of David Monongye, Keeper of the Hopi Prophecy), who then introduced him to Robert Three Eagles and Kent "White Eagle" Nield of Hurricane, Utah, and then introduced him to Grandfather John "Rolling Thunder" Pope. Between 1999 and 2003, he has run up against several corrupt "Chiefs' and a few good Indians too!

 His latest teacher was the highly respected John "Red Hat Duke," of the Long Hair Clan of The Original Keetoowah Society. Red  Hat was the adopted son of Chief Mike of Oraibi, who was brother of John Lansa. He was enrolled in the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and was even old enough to be a class of person doubled enrolled - also a member of the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians. John Red Hat "Walked West" or passed away on 12/30/2003.

I also found this comment about the prophesy keepers, initially contributed by Al, from an unnamed source in the web archives. ;

http://web.archive.org/web/20040803212751/http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/nafps/articles/art18.htm

A member of NAFPS inquired about the so-called "Keetowah Nighthawk Society" page, allegedly run by Cherokee elders, to a person associated with actual Keetowah Society members. They passed along the message to us, and we've received permission to post it.

This is the message in its entirety, outside of a passage where he goes off-topic criticizing the United Keetowah Band and asides to NAFPS members.

*****

Hi, thanks for writing me. I am familiar with the site in question. I even asked some knowledgeable, trusted folks in OK about some of the things on the site. First let me say this about learning things, especially the Keetoowah Society, the one that is located at the Stokes Smith ground and the Red Bird ground. Not repeating what you learn is often the most wise choice you can make....Some people get a bit hot, don't they, especially if they get questioned about who they really are. If you really study a subject thoroughly, and know what you are talking about, you don't have to tell people,if they know anything,they will know you know what you are talking about. Some try to blow smoke and it's all too evident.

When I first saw the questionable site, I too was very interested. Undoubtedly, someone took a lot of time putting all that information together. Most is copied from existing, quality materials of study done by others. But when you take good material and change it to try and act like it meant something other than it originally meant, that's bad. I have gone to great pains to obtain copies of original documents,in other words if someone writes a book and gives footnotes of their sources,I go get the original sources work and read it for myself, then I know what they really said. For instance, I have copies of 3-4 different thesis' that have been written on the society. Some are written in first person, with their contacts mentioned and often quoted. Others are more like rewrites of others works with subtle changes made to change the purpose.

With this site, please notice the first thing mentioned, the name. The Keetoowah Nighthawks Society. That was a dead giveaway that something might be wrong. Sure made some of my friends laugh though. Their is probably a lot of educated people out there, many Cherokee even, that would say, sooooooo......I can assure you however that the folks at the two grounds I mentioned would back away from such a would-be teacher. Here's why........In 1900-1902, when Red Bird and followers were opposed to and fighting the effects of the Dawes and Curtis acts, you know the land split thing......even the Keetoowah Society membership was split, mostly between the full bloods with Red Bird and the mixed bloods with the larger weathlier farms.

Short story - the Red Bird full bloods started the Red Bird ground in 1902, and soon many fires lite the nation, although after resistance proved futile, many died back (then). The mixed bloods went on the incorporate as the Keetoowah Society, Inc. in 1905 if I remember correctly, while the Red Bird group, and all those at the many fires were referred to as the Nighthawk Ketoowahs, went back to their night stomp worship services and nighttime travel. Simple name reversal to most, including Mr. Red Hat, whoever he is, but not to real members.

Under the contents page of the site, it says: "The Original Keetoowah Nighthawk Society - Red Bird Smith's program for racial awakening for the mixed bloods"....I believe I repeated that correctly. Not only is the name wrong, but the Red Bird "program" , or all those fires was never about benefitting the mixed bloods at all, it was about the full bloods, returning to their original worship practices, and overcoming the effects of the forced Dawes enrollment. You see what I mean by people rewriting truth to show and entirely different purpose. Like I said, Much of what is on the site is interesting, but if you don't know the real truth about things, folks can really lead you astray, and probably lead many to a new awareness of purpose of the Keetoowah people. Check out everything thoroughly.

By the way, I never found anyone that knew this "Red Duke" (note: he meant Red Hat I think) and now that he is dead, some female friend is carrying on with his knowledge and book writing and I am sure other money making ways. I did find out somewhere, though, that he lived in Arizona, I think. Talk about a long drive for a practicing ground member, huh. (note: there are no Stomp grounds in New Mexico or Arizona where this Red Hat was to have lived).

*****

One member of NAFPS suggested that the real Keetowah Society members do not regard this site or the person behind it as important enough to worry about or respond to. Nevertheless, since we received permission to post, we are doing so in the hopes that Cherokees who have lost touch with their heritage will not be deceived or misled by this site, and also that the various New Age/pseudo-prophecy types associated with William Anderson AKA "Blue Otter" and many other pseudonymns may hopefully come to see the error of their exploitiveways. We thank the person associated with the actual Keetowah Society for their help.

Al Carroll
Co-Founder, NAFPS

Even though the informant is not named, perhaps a bit of research could verify this historical accuracy of this information

I also see Daigle has an MSN page with lots on John Red Hat Duke
http://groups.msn.com/RedHatSpeaks/ezinearticles.msnw

http://groups.msn.com/RedHatSpeaks/redhat1.msnw
pictures of John Red Hat Duke

Within these peoples claims there is bits of real history , which might fool some people,  but as far as I can tell they link up all these selected pieces of real history in ways they don't actually fit. For instance, there is some evidence ancient people may have been more competant seafarers than is generally imagined, and there may have been some trade of goods and ideas between the pre existing indigenous Nations on different continents. But to claim the people who can be proven to have lived on this continent for tens of thousands of years began with a few traders who may have occaisionally visited over the past few thousand years is egocentric and extremely disrespectful. Further more, the people involved in this trade would not have been White and therefore this possibility of ancient cross cultural contact can't rightly be linked to the idea that New Age White people are the long lost White brother to the Hopi's.

If people want to learn about the past in a real way , it might be an idea to use sources that don't so obviously distort history and who aren't using this to try to promote themselves as the big important head honchos, as these people are.

Looks like this group has even got itself on answers .com as being the real thing...

http://www.answers.com/topic/keetoowah-nighthawk-society

http://www.answers.com/topic/original-keetoowah-society

John Red Hat Duke was a Cherokee Indian and member of the Keetoowah Nighthawk Society. In the eyes of the Oraibi Kykmongwes (Chiefs), John Red Hat fulfilled all their prophecies but one. After many years of association of John Red Hat with the late Oraibi chiefs John and Mina Lansa, their son, the late Kykmongwe (chief) Mike of Oraibi declared the Hopi Prophecy to be fulfilled, leaving only the future return of the corner of the Sun Clan tablet. Chief Mike was the last Oraibi Kykmongwe, due to the fact that there is no one with the correct clan lineage.

(  I would have thought such an important thing that was announced to the public would have at least been covered by National Geographic)

[wolfhawaii]

The information from the unidentified informant seems to correlate to what I am familiar with. I should add that I am aware of an actual ceremonial ground in Arizona, contrary to what Al said in the above referenced post. It is not a Nighthawk Keetoowah ground, but it is there. I am not at liberty to discuss it further, beyond saying that i have not been there myself, but was told of it by a highly respected Cherokee elder. I would like to find the info on John Red Hat Duke having been from AZ; I find it doubtful that he would have been associated with the grounds I am aware of. When i lived briefly in OK I had the opportunity to discuss Duke with knowledgeable figures from Redbird, Stokes, Echota, and Long Valley grounds.... no one knew who he was. I don't know where all the Red Hat adherents go to practice their weird ideas but Missouri seems likely from the Google searches I did yesterday. Redbird himself was mixed blood but culturally a fullblood and that is still a distinction made today; that mixed blood persons who are culturally Cherokee can be regarded as more indian than they are biologically. (Can be, not always are).

[wolfhawaii]

On the website is information which suggests that John Duke was from the Albuquerque area not Arizona. There is said to be a large Cherokee community there; is anybody from that area on here that could shed light on Red Hat's activities there prior to his crossing?
I also looked at the MSN group that Dottie (appropriately named) runs; seems like she is mostly talking to herself in there although she encourages participation....all the posts are by her. Somewhere a squirrel is missing some nuts.

[frederica]

He lived in New Leguna, NM,  for a while,  with someone, really had land in Arkansas to my knowledge.