Native American Culturalist

[JosephSWM]

Vance (or anyone),

Have you heard of this person or know him. Right now he lives in Baltimore, MD. Its not that he might be a fraud (maybe I don't know) but what do you think of what he has written here.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/NativeAmCulturalist/

Joseph

[VHawkins]

Joseph,

I have heard a little about him, and have emailed him.

Background -- I have a good friend, Michael Johnson -- whom I trust implicitly. I have met Mike and his family.

http://www.cherokee.org/NewsArchives/September2000Page.asp?ID=12

-- Michael Johnson is the creator of the www.turtletown.org website, and he knows Principle Chief Chad Smith personally. Ya know Chad;'s grandpa was Redbird Smith, with a couple of Stomp Grounds (at least) being named after his family. Mike told me he and Chad have played stickball at Stomps together. . . Michael Johnson is the one that first taught me to mistrust "fake" Cherokee tribes (he and I learned it at the same time really), and he also intruduced me to my first stomp dance.

Michael Johnson wrote the following --

http://www.ewebtribe.com/NACulture/articles/johnsonemail.htm

When I was working with Society of Absentee Cherokee, David Michael Wolfe -- the man you are asking about -- once said some really nasty things about Mike johnson, for being an unenrolled Cherokee yet claimed he was "collaborating" with the enemy -- "the enemy" being members of the Cherokee Nation (there is only one). I responded in kind to David Michael Wolfe. I believe we called each other unpleasant names for a while and that was the end of it, I never heard of him after that. I recall David said something about his once being called a "wannabe" by the then Cherokee Principle Chief Wilma Mankiller. I don't know her exact letter to him.

For these reasons I don't care for David Michael Wolfe. Same reason I don't care for Daren McCathern at Comanche Lodge website, for he has done the same thing and he is not respected in the Cherokee Nation, either. They both have the same opinion of the Cherokee Nation based in Tahlequah, and are very similar in many ways.

I also heard David visited Six Nations, was respected fpr what he said on behalf of some unenrolled peoples in Virginia. But he gave a fake history I think claiming some of these people were Cherokee when they are not.

I have seen his photograph and he is American Indian and is probably trying to some good for unenrolled people in the East. Other than this, I know nothing about wat he has said about Indian Spirituality, or if indeed he is of Cherokee heritage.

He has treated Cherokee in Oklahoma disrespectfully, as has Darren McCathern, but I don't know much more than that.  Personally I don't trust either of them and for that reason, but other respectable people do trust both of them. I do not know what he has said about any issues of religion, but I can simply speak of my experiences with him.

I am tryin' to be objective.

vance

[JosephSWM]

Vance,

Thank you for this reply. I know David Michael Wolfe too and he has said many bad things about me these last few years. I am very hesitant to give my opinion on him and even if I did try to state facts objectively I am not sure I could.

Your posts helps to confirm things for me. Soon I will be serving as one of the commissioners on the Maryland CVommission of Indian Affairs and I will have to deal with him again. He has a need it seems to tell everyone how to do everything.

He does not claim to be a spiritual leader or anything like this. I will say this, he has taken "burning the candle at both ends" to a new level. I could share more in a personal message if you were interested.

Joseph

[VHawkins]

Joseph, I have a good friend who thinks a lot of David Michael Wolfe, just as many here respect Darren McCathern.

Sure, feel free to write me, vhawkins@pacer.com .

Too often people argue, and there doesn't seem to be any way around it. Sometimes no one is completely right or wrong, or if one person is, there is no way for the others you correspond with to know it, cause it might be perceived as a personal thing between 2 people . . . and I don't see a reason to bring that up here if at all possible, so i can see your point.

vance

[VHawkins]

Thank you Joseph for showing me this link.

http://www.easterndoor.com/11-13/11-13-3.htm

At the link above it says --

"Cherokee David Michael Wolfe, chairman of the Nuyagi Keetowah Society Council of Pomona, N.Y."

I don't believe there is any such thing as a "Nuyagi Keetowah Society of New York".

This separates him from others, if he has made up this "Keetoowah  Society" organization, and makes me worry more about my friend who is a friend of David's.

Has anyone ever heard of this group?

vance

[Frederica Bickle]

http://www.sandhillindians.net/info.htm                  I always thought they were NJ

[VHawkins]

Thanks for postin' that website.

That website says this group is recognized by the Delaware tribes in Oklahoma and by the Keetoowah Society. hmmm . . .

I really doubt this, but I might be wrong. He mentions Cherokee in NJ in 1711 and implies that they stayed there. They went there to pay their resprects to a Delaware Chief who had just died it appears, but I'd be willin' to bet once the funeral was over they went back home.

If I (or Joe you might wanna do this) can get ahold of any Oklahoma Delaware websites I think I'll email them and see if they've ever heard of this group.

Joe, if Crazysun was a Desciple of David's as you say, this website would explain some of the off the wall comments he was makin' at my site.

Also there is an implication that the Delaware who united with the Cherokee was some kind of a justification for this NJ or NY group having  Lenape and Cherokee. But that is silly, because some of the Delaware in Oklahoma who were sorta forced to unite with the Cherokee after the Civil War isn't related at all to people in NJ who they claimed started mixing with Cherokee in 1711 -- that's rediculous.

vance

[JosephSWM]

Vance,

I may be wrong, from what I have read of histories of our people, the Lenape at that time, 1711, were our enemies? If so, why pay their respects.

My gut feeling is having doubts about this sight, the sand hill Indians site. Look at the name list below from the site. See the name Wolfe.

I could be wrong but there is a real similarity in writing styles between these pages and Wolfe's style, at least the hard copies I have.

Keetoowah / Cherokee Families                 Keetoowah / Cherokee Families

Monmouth and Burlington Co.                        Passaic and Sussex Co.



1)  Crummel                                                 1)  Davis

2)  Davis                                                      2)  Holloway

3)  Holloway                                                3)  Myer

4)  Horner                                                    4)  Wolfe

5)  Richardson

6)  Myer

7)  Waters


Joseph

[Frederica Bickle]

here is one of the Lenape' in Okla. website, the Absentee do not have one. This is the Bartleville group. http://www.delawaretribeofindians.nsn.us/ email:lenape@cowboy.net   As far as I know the Keetoowah have to be 1/4. I doubt if these people are. The Lenape in NJ are state recognized. I do not know if these people are or not. You can also check with the CNO.

[JosephSWM]

Thanks for the website.

Joseph

[JosephSWM]

I just wrote to the above website and asked for clarification about the Sand Hill Indians. I also sent hem the website address.

Joseph

[VHawkins]

There is a Delaware Tribe of Western Oklahoma based in Anadarko that I ws looking for. I did an internet search and got tons of links -- then I added the word "Anadarko" to the search and bingo, I got the following website --

http://westjersey.org/wj_len.htm

which said --

The two largest:
Delaware Tribe of Indians (Bartlesville, OK)

no website: The Delaware Nation of Western Oklahoma, PO Box 825, Anadarko, OK 73005, 405-247-2448

So there is a phone number to call. I think that area code is wrong -- Our area code used to be 405 but it was changed a few years back to 580 so it's probably 580-247-2448.

vance

[VHawkins]

Thanks Frederica,

There may be a few undocumented Delaware in NJ because they came from that part of the country originally, but I doubt that there are any Cherokee, and I doubt this Keetoowah group is for real. If they are for real, well I just learned something. If I were a betting man (which I'm not), I'd bet against that, tho.

vance

[VHawkins]

Ever see that chili commercial? Goes something like this.

Somebody with a New Jersey accent buys some chili in Texas and the guy looks at the lable and one guy says. "Wait a minute" (I'm paraphrasin'). This chili was made in !New York City! Folks around the camp fire say "?New York City?" Everybody makes an ugly face ane they say "Buy our chili, made by folks in San Antonio who know what good chili tastes like."

I think that is a "Wolfe Brand Chili" commercial, by the way . . .

Something about this New Jersey Keetoowah Society and it's founder made me think of that commercial, not sure what  tho, but it'll come to me . . .

vance

[JosephSWM]

Well, its been almost a year since we posted to this thread.

Wolfe does not claim to be Keetowah anymore. Now he is Echota Cherokee. This is the third kind of Cherokee he has been. First he was a Virginia Cherokee, then Keetowah, and now Echota.

Thats all, not all that interesting.

Joseph