Tribal America

[Tsisqua]

TS does not require a membership fee as it was decided that we wanted all our Native Brothers and Sisters to be able to members of our site, free of charge.

There are not big amounts of money missing as is claimed by Tsisqua. We do accept donations and these are used to keep our site running.

Now Please view the following:

Tribal America Community Announcements - Mon Mar 10, 2008 22:19:12 GMT
From Chief Pappy: due to costs, a new pricing plan will be going into effect by june 1st, anyone with an upgraded sort priority in the last 3 months will be provided one full year free, all others will need to upgrade with the new pricing plan.....

This can be found at:

http://gulati.com/cgi-bin/home.pl?loginid=&sk=&function=Mailboxes

Also a members question...

Topic #2075
New pricing plan? - I a little confused about the posting on the main page about a 'new pricing plan' When I joined this site it was a 'one-time charge' of $10.00. The way the posting reads, it sounds as if I am going to be charged to continue on this site. What happens if I don't upgrade? #163814

This can be found at:

http://gulati.com/cgi-bin/tforums.pl?fn=f&tp=2075&m=&loginid=&sk=


Lets see how this is explained away.

With respect,

Tsisqua

[Moma_porcupine]

Tsisqua

Last night I took the time to carefully read through all this.

It can be hard to understand the progression of events that cause people become estranged from each other in their on line relationships, and I don't mean to be insensitive to your feelings, but I honestly couldn't see where anything in the long conversations that you posted here looked abusive.

What I did see is that you were very involved in supporting this website, and you felt you had been the victim of a lack of appreciation for your efforts.   

What caused me to take the time to read through this really carefully to make sure I hadn't missed something, was the new member Raven Crow, who seems to know you from other boards and who has brought up some more  allegations of divisive cyber dramas. Again these allegations are too vauge to understand what the problem was, but as i am seeing what looks like a bit of a pattern I read through this again looking for clues in case I missed something.

I guess if you are in the middle of these things it can seem obvious to you that you have been wronged, but without links or a clear point by point progression of events and what exactly happened and was said, I can't make any sense of this.

I can see where it is strange to have a website with people calling themselves Chief and running a Tribal America website when they aren't Native. And all the domain names seems very strange. 

But then you sound like you were involved in supporting this group, so I am not clear what it was that you found strange .

Charging for the service is kind of peculiar too - though many websites that help people get matched up do this.

I really don't mean to sound unsympathetic, but if wrong doing is going on, it really helps if people can be more specific and if this happened on line show some evidence. It's good you posted this to let people know to be careful , but people are obnoxious and rude in on many websites.  Check out Indianz.com if you want to see some real ndn mud wrestling.

http://indianz.com/board/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=5

I'm not sure this is something that falls into the catagory of fraud or exploitation. Maybe I'm just not understanding what your concerns are, and if that is the case I apologize. I don't mean to be insensitive.

[Tsisqua]

I do not see your posting as insensitive at all infact I appreciate your words....my point with regards to Tribal America was the simple fact that it was advertised as an all Native site, run by Natives...of which proved false...white admin allowed Native people to be constantly abused by non Native people....and turned a blind eye...Native people were banned for asking staff to stop this...and all the while, money was asked for repeatedly even though admin denied this here (Funny how once again they are asking for more money)...at this point TA was not a dating site, but a Native Unity Site....advertised as a free site....regardless of the hours or effort I personally put it...that was never an issue to me...for I did it freely.

With regards to the new member....she does not know me from any other boards dispite her allegations, I am a member here, also on the yahoo group of NAFPS, American Indian Injustice, and a few others....plus of course my own site....she was directed to me yesterday for the first time via my cousin Matty who maintains a page on RNS to keep watch on certain well known fakes there,  he was being rudely questioned by her on our NAU links to Beaderman, her messages were nothing short of abusive....of which I have copies of all correspondence...her attacks are without cause or proof....and this is simply all I had pointed out to her in forum...seems others are NOT entitled to an opinion or answers, BUT this new member...which is not the way here. I know nothing of fake ID cards....or other things she speaks of, nor am I or have I ever been romantically involved with Beaderman...this is all just laughable...but she can say what she may...Im not here claiming to be something I am not...as I have previously stated... I have been nothing less than respectful...as is our way in NAU...and we pride ourselves in our dealings with others.

Perhaps the questions you have put to this new member will not be answered...since I see she refuses to give her accussations any credibility and says 'Tsis knows who he is'...well I will remind people, it was not I who posted here and tried to defame the character of another person without evidence...that is called 'personal spite' and its not something I involve myself in.

With respect,

Tsissy (NAU ~ Native American Unity)

[Moma_porcupine]

Thanks for the summery. You are saying this is a poorly moderated site, run by non natives calling itself Native Unity, that charges fees and has a whole bunch of domain names on Native themes. Yeah that does sound like something people should be careful of. 

I'm glad that I didn't sound too dense. Your summery makes sense.

[Tsisqua]

I appreciate your response...there are many sites out there that claim to be something they are not...that take money from native people, sell ceremony, sell other items, abuse native people...and I feel they need to be exposed for what they are.

I appreciate your time,

With respect,

Tsissy

[Tsisqua]

Not to keep harping on about this....but I've just been informed TA are now asking all members to 'Donate' 50 bucks a piece or they will no longer be able to avail of the messaging system (Sending private messages like email)....which has always been a free service.

This is what I've received...now Im only showing this as RQ herself clearly stated:

TS does not require a membership fee as it was decided that we wanted all our Native Brothers and Sisters to be able to members of our site, free of charge.


There are not big amounts of money missing as is claimed by Tsisqua. We do accept donations and these are used to keep our site running.

Now...with over 7 thousand members....they want 50 bucks a piece?? That's 350,000 bucks right there!! To run a web site??

Date: Mar 25, 2008 3:44 PM
Subject: Tell me what might have changed....
Body: Hello Tsis,
I found this quite interesting....
I though the so called "Chief Pappy" ran TA.
Check this out.... It has her picture placed right above and before the words....
I immediately thougtht of you, in regards to fraudulant people (fake) .... LOL
Now they are charging, if you want to send your friends an email message, or to leave them a message. How funny is that? Those hungry greety people.... LOL it cracks me up


Tribal America Inc is a 100% woman owned and operated organization registered by Ms. Anju Gulati with the State of Virginia, USA. This online service for native american brothers and sisters has been in operation since 1998.

Tribal America runs on donations and volunteer work only. All donations are placed back into the site for server hosting fees, postal mailings of letters and flyers, donations to needy organizations when possible, and other causes as driven by our Native American Unity project. If you feel Tribal America is of value to the community, please help support us in any amount and as regularly you can afford. Donating is not a requirement to keep your account active on Tribal America. Upgrading at least once places you into STAR membership, which is visible to other members on your profile as blinking red stars next to your name on your profile page.

Having an account on this network is free for all members. Donating is not a requirement to remain a member. If you feel this network provides a way to unite native american brothers and sisters together, please support this site by using any of the options below - doing so will update the sort priority of your profile as our thanks back to you. Doing so the very first time will upgrade your account to STAR membership which gives you the ability to send and receive message.

Please view the four options below to upgrade/refresh your profile's sorting priority.

Also the following message...

Date: Mar 25, 2008 3:46 PM
Subject: Here is part 2 .... NOTHING IS FREE NO MORE!
Body: Option #1 - Free! For Native American Identity Holders
We understand that some members, particular on the reservations, have little means to donate money. So, if you have a native american identity card or a paystub from a business that is based on or for a native american registration, send that to us either by postal mail to the address below or by fax to +1.800.856.2510 along with your member id # and e-mail address for a free update to your profile sorting priority. You can repeat this as many times as you want to. Please note we do not hold on to what you send, so you will have to resend it again to repeat an upgrade to your sorting priority.

Option #2 - Send US/Canadian By Paypal
Instant Sort Priority - Within Seconds!


Tribal America Inc has preferred organization status with Paypal.

Note: you do not need a paypal account to use this option! Look for the "Don't have a PayPal account?" section after cliking the Donate button.

Select an amount you can help us with then click the Donate button:

You only need to establish your upgrade once, but can donate again as many times as you feel that Tribal America is a good site for all native americans:

ONE TIME ONLY!

For first timers, the minimum is a one-time donation of $50 to become a STAR member for life, which also sets your sort priority to the current date.


For STAR members, a wider selection of donation options allows you to refresh/update your sort priority at any time of your choosing so that your profile moves back to the top of searches. Please send in the maximum you can, since Tribal America does not mandate monthly subscriptions and therefore appreciates appreciates your support in helping run this site.

Please maximize what you can help us with, then click the donate button below:

$50 $60 $75 $85 $90 $100 $125 $150 $175 $200

Upon completing your donation to our paypal account, you will receive confirmation emails from both Paypal and Tribal America. In addition, your sort priority on your profile will be automatically updated to the latest timestamp.


Option #3 - Send US/Canada/Euro By Postal Mail
We only accept cash bills of US, Canadian, or Euros. Money orders should be in US dollars. When sending by postal mail, any where from $5 and up is acceptable. Postal Money Orders or Check donations must be in US Dollars otherwise it costs us anywhere from $35 to $50 in conversion fees.

When using postal mail, remember to include both your member id # and your e-mail address  with your donation. Send your donation for any amount you can afford, to:


Tribal America Inc
12257 Sherborne Street
Bristow
Virginia 20136
USA

Phone: 7034090531
E-mail: tribalmail-office@yahoo.com

Option #4 - Native American Unity Program
For members that can provide a specific activity as members of this network that will help to support the growth of the network and the goal of native american unity can be provided a complementary upgrade to their sort priority. To join other such members, you must either have a specific proposal sent to Chief Pappy or be recommended by members already actively supporting that need your assistance. In specific, any members that can provide marketing goods such as t-shirts, mugs, pens, or other souveniers that are marked with "tribalamerica. com" and a flying-eagle-in-sky logo, please send them to our mailing address, and we will find members that can help distribute them to the next powwow, event, or other organization.

Now, let us keep in mind Chief Pappy aka Raj Gulati is NOT a Chief...nor is he Native American but from INDIA...his wife  Anju Gulati is also NOT Native American but from INDIA...and they apparently dont ask members for money?? 

[Tsisqua]

#8188 Re: New pricing plan? - Okay, I appreciate the clarity that has been placed on the main page about the new pricing plan. I can assure you I will not be one to continue with this site, even as much as I enjoy it. I will pay no more than what was orginally asked of me when I joined.I don't appreicate being lied too and mislead when I originally joined. A lifetime membership is just that...for life. The charge was $10 to do so. It is wrong to go back and charge those members who joined in the past. If the site wants to change its pricing plan that is it choice, however, it should be done with the new members coming in, not with those who were already here and were told that they would only have to pay $10 to do so.If anyone knows of any other native sites out there that would be good to connect with please let me know. I prefer the ones that are honest and hold to their words!I am very disappointed in this and the wrongful actions that are being taken by the owners of this site. You cannot achieve your goal of 'one people one voice' when you are not honest and show deceit in the process, no trust can be established with such things. (2008-03-20 19:30:05.979678) #163814

And for everyones information Chief Pappy is not in this for the money, if he was this site would have closed long ago. This site barely makes enough money to keep it running and many times Chief Pappy has put in his own money to keep it going.

(NOTE: if this is not about money...why is Pappy charging 50 bucks a piece???)

It's all in the name of business.....I'm not buying it. Such a sterotype ...'Chief'? Let rethink the motives here. (2007-11-20 16:52:10.181611)

I agree its a business, hes making money of this, which hey its the american way, but to say cheif to a non native is so disrespectful to the great leaders of our past, who ever even came up with this idea should be ashamed. I f you mean hes a leader i dont think so, so custer was too,  do you want him as our leader too?? (2007-11-23 02:20:13.967124)

And lets not forget:

TS does not require a membership fee as it was decided that we wanted all our Native Brothers and Sisters to be able to members of our site, free of charge.

[wredgranny]

This the "message" that was sent out from TS/TA,strange they do not "charge",so what they want the 50.oo for?
granny

Dear (Member # 163330),
>
> If you have not already done so, please help keep Tribal America
online by upgrading to Star Membership using any of our four
options. The regular first time upgrade is \$50 but we have enabled
your account for a \$20 upgrade for a limited time only.
>
> We hope to see you online again soon!
>
> "One People - One Voice"!
>
> Thank you and best wishes, Chief Pappy.
>
>

[Tsisqua]

Just an update if anyone's interested.

Tribal America is now up for sale...we have this info from Lady Cedar who was also admin there, who has currently left Tribal due to being abused.

Tribal America and all the domains at the beginning of this post that Al posted.....are being sold....but please keep in mind....only a few short weeks ago...Pappy asked all members for new membership fees....some members were asked for 50 bucks...some have reported being asked for 90 bucks...all to be 'once again' a lifetime member of a site they were already lifetime members of.

So...Im kinda wondering....why ask for this money from members who have already paid for lifetime memberships.....knowing fully the org was being sold?? I find this highly deceptive.....looks like Pappy is set to make a packet once more.

[educatedindian]

Several members of NAFPS received invitations to a yahoo group calling itself Tribal America. I don't know if it's the same bunch running it, or if the name is just a coincidence.

[Tsisqua]

Is this the group?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tribal_America/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=10

Seems they've been attaining peoples email adresses and spamming them with invites. Although I see alot of names I recognize there. Its not anything to do with tribal so some of their long time members have just told me...so I guess its just a coincidence.

Incidently...all links to Tribal previously posted here are now unaccessable.

From their forum regarding the price plan...

#8226 Re: New pricing plan? - I got my information from this site where it had stated that after June the cost for membership would be 99.00 so hurry up and upgrade for 50.00 You can make all the changes to the screens you want and make it look as you wish but I know what I read back when I first started this tread and shortly afterwards. But there was a disclaimer encouraging everyone to hurry up and upgrade now at 50.00 before the cost went up to 99.00 starting June. (2008-05-08 08:46:10.393773) #163814

#8222 Re: New pricing plan? - Asking people to send in personal information is wrong and unacceptable and this site has changed somewhat since December last year in a negative way...Why??? I will not be paying for a membership here because the owners keep changing the rules around payment. Any business knows that when changing things money wise it should not affect the current customer and the rules that surround him/her unless the structure was made to be able to change things in the future affecting everyone. If someone pays for a lifetimes use then that is their legal right to do so. (2008-05-04 10:35:07.601842) Anon

It also seems like the tactics are changing...

#8221 Re: New pricing plan? - I am struggling to understand here because it says that a NA can upgrade for free but no mention of other ethnicities. Are you hoping to allow NA's have a free site because we others are paying for it??? I'm not native but it sounds Racist besides other things...This site is supposed to be for NA's only but that's also Racist and the one off life time membership fee that people paid but are now being told they have to pay again is illegal and I will surely be investigating this further until it is resolved. This shouldn't be allowed, this site seems to create quite a bit of Racism as it is without the owners encouraging it. Or is that yr aim??? Are the owners NA? (2008-05-04 10:28:49.384967) Anon

#8217 Re: New pricing plan? - I rarely come here now but have to voice my objections to the new pricing plan. When I joined via Scotland Singles way back in 2003 I paid for lifetime membership. That is exactly what I expect to be provided. If Raj wants to change the rules now I expect a refund of my membership payment. (2008-04-23 10:35:37.327965) #103350

#8196 Re: New pricing plan? - I am sorry chief and others my tribal information my husband and I do not feel comfortable mailing information in to a site we are afraid of identity theft.We hate our cards the way it is....I feel strapped for my hubby and i belong here and we LOVE the people here this IS the best site. I am sorry we will not be able to pay. I would of liked to have a donation or someone have something each month up on the board to sell to donate to the site etc. to run on proceeds then to have all members giving one hundred dollars.I like to see things helped with members helping, but then...who am I.I hope you will decide to keep Tatanka and myself Iktomesapa. I know others are extremly upset by the money issue, maybe others can help find ways we can help run this site yet maintain our relationships? Any ideas ppl?Hugglers to you AllIktomesapa (2008-03-29 23:20:40.21756) #166717

#8198 Re: New pricing plan? - You bring up a very good and wise point and one that does need to be taken very seriously. Not many people are going to be comfortable with releasing such personal information to those they do not know. Idenity theft is a very big issue in this country and I would not recommend to anyone to forward their personal ID information to anyone on this site or any other site. Also paystubs have listed on them your social security number also. I don't think the owners of this site gave thought to this with their request, but it was very thoughtful of you to post your concerns on the matter. (2008-03-30 12:52:26.40839) #163814

#8188 Re: New pricing plan? - Okay, I appreciate the clarity that has been placed on the main page about the new pricing plan. I can assure you I will not be one to continue with this site, even as much as I enjoy it. I will pay no more than what was orginally asked of me when I joined.I don't appreicate being lied too and mislead when I originally joined. A lifetime membership is just that...for life. The charge was $10 to do so. It is wrong to go back and charge those members who joined in the past. If the site wants to change its pricing plan that is it choice, however, it should be done with the new members coming in, not with those who were already here and were told that they would only have to pay $10 to do so.If anyone knows of any other native sites out there that would be good to connect with please let me know. I prefer the ones that are honest and hold to their words!I am very disappointed in this and the wrongful actions that are being taken by the owners of this site. You cannot achieve your goal of 'one people one voice' when you are not honest and show deceit in the process, no trust can be established with such things. (2008-03-20 19:30:05.979678) #163814

All of the above is taken from http://74.55.127.146/cgi-bin/forums.pl?fn=f&tp=2075&m=&loginid=168000&sk=1680005952836386

There's also some talk of racism....which now seems to be due to the fact Pappy is claiming Native people can join for free if they send personal info....but as you can see...many are disgruntled with being asked for another 'lifetime membership fee'.

[Moma_porcupine]

Re: Tribal America
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2008, 06:55:07 am 
Tsisqua

Incidently...all links to Tribal previously posted here are now unaccessable.

I'm not sure where to post this but I see the links to the Tribal America website that I posted in Tsisqua's introduction no longer work. When I posted those links I was feeling a bit intimidated by the large and threatening copyright notices , so I didn't post the contents of them. I'm not sure this is even relevent- but I don't like to see this information become unavailable. I don't want to edit my post in Tsisqua's introdction to include this now, and i guess as the info comes from the Tribal America webpage, this is the right thread to post it in.

The information was located at the URL below. I saved some of the web pages from the old Tribal America site, and I am quoting from this . I can provide proof of this if anyone requires.

http://www.tribalamerica.com/cgi-bin/fp.pl?fn=f

First there is the intimidating and threatening copyright notice.
I hope they know about the fair use laws -

This content is the property of the tribalamerica.com and is freely posted by members after logging in. Any duplication or distribution without our consent is strictly forbidden per federal and state regulations and is prosecutable under law.

( there was a number of posts on various topics not included here )

Tsisqua

How much are you willing to give? - Clearly, Native Unity is needed. Clearly, our people could have a strong, powerful voice thru unity. Clearly, we could bring about huge changes for our people. Our Ancestors fought for the same, and SOME of our people fight for the same now. So what is the problem? It does not matter if you are a full blood, half blood, a quarter blood, green blood, yellow blood, orange blood, whatever blood!....All that matters is you STAND UP AND UNITE!! Everyone has a little time to spare. Everyone has the desire in their heart to see our people united and strong! We are not asking you for money, for your personal possessions, for your first born child (lol)...just a little TIME and EFFORT...and for you to use your strength of spirit to join with us! Please, join with us, attend the next Native Unity Meeting...at least give an idea of when you are able to attend and we can work around you. One people! One voice! Tsisqua.>

Chief Pappy

NAU Mission Statement (Draft) - I have posted a draft mission statement for Tribal America and the Native American Unity project, and would like feedback as to what statements need to be changed, what needs to be added, what doesn't make sense, etc. We want o work the mission statement and success criteria with the guidance of our online family right here at Tribal America. Please view the link and posted your feedback on this forum thread. The link can be found at tribalamerica.com/nau.html. Sincerely, Chief Pappy (2006 - Replies: 12)

http://www.tribalamerica.com/nau.html

Tribal America - Native American Unity
Draft Mission Statement
Source: TribalPower.Com Strategy Session - November 26th, 2006
Latest Request For Comment (RFC): November 3rd, 2007

To unite native american efforts under a single initiative that can deliver a unified message that is supported by a majority vote from the native american tribes to provide a better way of life to the native american population in the United States, Canada, and worldwide.

Success Criteria - Mission Statement Components

Key accomplishments that demonstrate improved way of life and opportunities for advancement for the native american.

Brand presence into various aspects of social, political, and commercial enterprise in order to establish a defined brand for the native american movement.

Ability to provide mentorship and guidance in establishment of rules and regulations that benefit the common native american soul instead of the large corporation or for-profit organization.

Tactical provision of a known face in response to immediate scenarios to voice an opinion benefiting the native american family unit.

Become established as the leading provider of online services to the native american population by leverage key offerings that align with native american interests and native american desires for community integration.

Support for educational opportunities that provide for certification of candidates for the unique designation of tribal america warrior designation.

Provision for a central directory of registration for all activities connected with the welfare of the native american community.

Creation of a recognized central library of native information that becomes the defining repository for native american heritage and culture and enables the provision of this information through free channels to all interested parties.

Recognition as the leading arbitrar and enabling service for native american business expansion and execution of merger or acquisition opportunities that benefit native american business entrepreneurs.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To help further evolve this mission statement, please visit the FORUMS.
© Tribal America Inc, All Rights Reserved

 

I don't see how anyone can copyright comments submited by various people posted on a message board - or how anyone can copyright a political plan to unify Native people? How are people supposed to discuss the background and history of such a group without quoting the draft plan and comments made by the people who founded the group ?

I guess that is why there are laws allowing "fair use" of copyrighted material for commentary or educational purposes.

I'm not sure how Tribal America can have a copyright to this idea and Tsisqua can be the owner of a registered trademark of the same idea. 

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=319485276

According to the website below it is only legal to use the symbols ® if it is used to show something is a federally registered trademark, and I see on other places on the internet like myspace Tsisqua has a ® beside the NAU logo.

http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/copyrFAQ.html

And in refference to the comments below...

Re: Tribal America
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2008, 06:55:07 am 

Tsisqua Quoting from the Tribal America website (first quote)

#8221 Re: New pricing plan? - I am struggling to understand here because it says that a NA can upgrade for free but no mention of other ethnicities. Are you hoping to allow NA's have a free site because we others are paying for it??? I'm not native but it sounds Racist besides other things...

Tsisqua

There's also some talk of racism....which now seems to be due to the fact Pappy is claiming Native people can join for free if they send personal info

....

The charging of non natives for membership looks like it has been happening for a while . As far as  can see what changed is this just got more expensive.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070830045604/http://tribalamerica.com/

Welcome to TribalAmerica.Com - #1 in Native American Websites - Est. 1998!

* Tribal America Chat Is Free! - Live Native American Members Are Waiting To Chat With You Now! *

Dear Native Brothers and Sisters, Tribal America lifetime upgrade is completely free for members with proof of native american ancestry, those working on reservation land (proof required), or anyone working for a native american business (proof required), and only a $10 lifetime upgrade fee (one time only) for all other members.

It also sounds like people involved in the NAU project that was a part of Tribal America were given the services others were charged for - free ...

Tsisqua quoting from Tribal America ( no idea what a "sort priority " is , but that seems to be what TA was charging for...)
March 25, 2008, 04:23:10 pm

For first timers, the minimum is a one-time donation of $50 to become a STAR member for life, which also sets your sort priority to the current date.

Re: Tribal America
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2008, 04:23:10 pm 
posted by Tsisqua

Option #4 - Native American Unity Program
For members that can provide a specific activity as members of this network that will help to support the growth of the network and the goal of native american unity can be provided a complementary upgrade to their sort priority.

Maybe this is just a coincidence - but based on the number of members NAU began with, it looks like NAU got it's initial membership directly from Tribal America ...
 
Re: Tribal America
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2008, 04:23:10 pm 
posted by Tsisqua referring to Tribal America;

Now...with over 7 thousand members....they want 50 bucks a piece?? That's 350,000 bucks right there!! To run a web site??

 Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2008, 07:59:12 am 
Tsisqua

before I opened NAU...we already had over 7000 members of various other groups which we incorporated into NAU

I don't now much about website ownership, domain names and who owns a membership list , or about copyright and registered trademarks so maybe this is just a dumb question, but, if Tribal America is now being sold, would that sale include Tribal America's Native American Unity project?

It seems quite strange seeing people claiming to be able to own and sell ideas which have to do with Native culture, community , identities and the supposedly unified political voice of Native people. I'm not sure what the implications of that may be , but it does make me wonder...   

I saved more stuff from the Tribal America website , but I'm not sure it is relevent to post it all .....

I apologize in advance if these observatons only seem relevent because of my ignorance of the actual facts...

[Tsisqua]

Firstly...Ive made a copy of this posting as Ive seen in recent weeks how peoples posts have been altered or portions deleted when people have tried to reply to MP's accusations.


Quote from MP....

First there is the intimidating and threatening copyright notice.
I hope they know about the fair use laws -
This content is the property of the tribalamerica.com and is freely posted by members after logging in. Any duplication or distribution without our consent is strictly forbidden per federal and state regulations and is prosecutable under law.
( there was a number of posts on various topics not included here )

I already posted this some ways back in this link, please see....

Reply #14 on: January 26, 2008, 07:30:50 am
I am including emails from my own personal yahoo account...these were from the day before, and the day I left TA, (Dec 6th/7th 2007) they are original emails, and I have no problem forwarded them to anyone who wishes to see them to prove so. They clearly show how nothing was done, nothing was taken seriously etc. I hope they will be of help.

Incidently, the following message now appears on forum there; This content is the property of the tribalamerica.com and is freely posted by members after logging in. Any duplication or distribution without our consent is strictly forbidden per federal and state regulations and is prosecutable under law.

I've noticed MP in your post, you are quoting my words from Tribal America from when I was there, words I posted ooooohhh from anywhere from 10 months ago to a year or more ago....as if you are insinuating Im hiding something...even though there are postings still on Tribal America where people have insisted my words were removed...and when I left I removed all my own work...all thats left there...besides forum postings...are words Pappy was responsible to move...which he refused....and no where have I hidden the fact I was admin there...no where have I hidden the fact that I left due to the way its run or the way native people were treated...and still are treated....I brought this here to TRY to get something done about it.But even though Ive made my own personal emails available here, and have provided as much evidence as possible...you still remain confused as to my standing on Tribal America and my apparent present day involvement with them?...lol....oh yes...I love Tribal America...uh huh....its a real swell place...why dont you join MP...you may like it there eh? I brought this here...to warn other people for craps sakes.

Yes I ran the Unity meetings, infact we had a total of TWO....Pappy created a Unity room for this purpose, he failed to show up, as did the other staff members, on both occassions, sending a clear message out to all natives who DID bother to show up, although, he had no trouble showing up to his web cam party two days later, covorting himself on main screen wearing his Eagle Feather headband, whilst the other admins got drunk and stomped to pow wow music for all to see...until of course native members left in disgust.

The NAU Mission Statement, was written by Pappy, not me, infact, I failed to even understand his words. This Draft was written not too long before I left....at a time when Pappy was coming into chat...going off on rants about IF YOU DONT WANT NATIVE UNITY YOU CAN ALL F*&K OFF, THIS IS NOT A DATING SITE etc etc

Quote from MP...

I don't see how anyone can copyright comments submited by various people posted on a message board - or how anyone can copyright a political plan to unify Native people? How are people supposed to discuss the background and history of such a group without quoting the draft plan and comments made by the people who founded the group ?

I agree 100%...which is why I stated earlier in the thread that I had seen this, but I was still determined to post the info I had...this copyrights thing was never there until I brought Tribal here to NAFPS. It appeared after RQ came here and posted in Pappy's defense.

Quote from MP...

I'm not sure how Tribal America can have a copyright to this idea and Tsisqua can be the owner of a registered trademark of the same idea.

NAU that Pappy has on Tribal America, is nothing to do with NAU that I myself run. He agreed to no longer use the name, and has not stuck to his words....he agreed to many things....but unfortunately, the man is a coward...who seeks only money...even though he is selling up...voiding all memberships...memberships he is still asking payment for....but hey...lets not focus on that eh? Lets flick some more crap at me. I was wondering how long it would take before you fired up again.


Quote from MP...

Dear Native Brothers and Sisters, Tribal America lifetime upgrade is completely free for members with proof of native american ancestry, those working on reservation land (proof required), or anyone working for a native american business (proof required), and only a $10 lifetime upgrade fee (one time only) for all other members.
It also sounds like people involved in the NAU project that was a part of Tribal America were given the services others were charged for - free ...

Which NAU Project are you referring to? Please state clearly which one you speak of since there are TWO. All I know from being there myself in the past...and from mails we are passed from members of NAU who are still Tribal Members, or admin who just left due to abuse from other admin and non native members...is that even Native people are asked for money...despite the claim that native people can join for free....native people are asked over and over again for a renewal of membership fees....there is no exceptions as Pappy may claim...but then...you'd need to be a member there to know these things, instead of quoting what you presume to be correct. Ive posted mails from TsoDine...who is Navajo...who was asked for 50 bucks...also Granny posted an email they sent to her requiring membership fees.

Quote from MP...

( no idea what a "sort priority " is , but that seems to be what TA was charging for...)

The sort Priority is where pappy arranges profiles according to how much that member donates...ie if you donate 50 bucks a month....you get to be on the second page of listings...if you donate 200 bucks a month...you make the front page....isnt that great stuff? And yes....they ask for donations monthly....regular emails are sent out to members.

Quote from MP...

Option #4 - Native American Unity Program
For members that can provide a specific activity as members of this network that will help to support the growth of the network and the goal of native american unity can be provided a complementary upgrade to their sort priority.

This is new....but its no surprise.

Quote from MP...

Maybe this is just a coincidence - but based on the number of members NAU began with, it looks like NAU got it's initial membership directly from Tribal America ...

And I clearly stated...many native people left Tribal America due to the abuse of natives by non natives....do you have an issue with this? We created NAU FOR the native members there who were tired of the crap...is this a problem??

Quote from MP...

Now...with over 7 thousand members....they want 50 bucks a piece?? That's 350,000 bucks right there!! To run a web site??
Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2008, 07:59:12 am
Tsisqua
Quote
before I opened NAU...we already had over 7000 members of various other groups which we incorporated into NAU

lol....too funny...so you think that I took 7000 members from Tribal Americas 7000 members...which would leave them with ermmmmm....no members?? lol  But why would I want his non native members, members who abuse people....drunks who troll chat rooms, who harrass woman...who pick fights with natives?? I dont...Pappy is welcome to them. Now...If you'd like to quote me correctly...I stated "From various other groups" not from Tribal America...my how you like to make assumptions eh? You sure do you best MP to try to discredit me whenever you smell an opportunity...lol....maybe one day you may even find something factual...but I doubt it. Incidently I might add...you clearly have stated in the past that you do not believe we have an extensive memberlist...you posted 23 members was it? from our forum when we first opened up NAU? You insinuated I was being untruthful about our memberlist amount...and now you have decided to change tactics...lol...dont you just enjoy this MP?

Quote from MP...

I don't now much about website ownership, domain names and who owns a membership list , or about copyright and registered trademarks so maybe this is just a dumb question, but, if Tribal America is now being sold, would that sale include Tribal America's Native American Unity project?
Pappy NAU Project?

lol He uses the name...but what is he ACTUALLY doing? Can you see anything regarding Native Unity on his site? In his chat rooms? Can you? Apart from his crappy little Statement? He is selling all his domains, names, sites, addresses.....and non of them are anything to do with me or NAU.

Quote from MP...

It seems quite strange seeing people claiming to be able to own and sell ideas which have to do with Native culture, community , identities and the supposedly unified political voice of Native people. I'm not sure what the implications of that may be , but it does make me wonder...

Well excuse my french...but Pappy is an a-hole....charging for memberships is wrong...we've proven with NAU that there is NO MONEY INVOLVED EVER...its not needed...a site can be run on time alone...Al stated at the start of this thread that he found it disturbing how Pappy owned so many domains etc...and could possibly intend to sell them...which now...he is...maybe its time people started listening to what Ive been saying about Tribal America all along...and got off their butts and did something about it...instead of playing armchair activist.

Tsissy (Proud Owner Of NAU)

[Tsisqua]

Quote from MP...

Quote
How much are you willing to give? - Clearly, Native Unity is needed.
Clearly, our people could have a strong, powerful voice thru unity.
Clearly, we could bring about huge changes for our people. Our
Ancestors fought for the same, and SOME of our people fight for the
same now. So what is the problem? It does not matter if you are a
full blood, half blood, a quarter blood, green blood, yellow blood,
orange blood, whatever blood!....All that matters is you STAND UP AND
UNITE!! Everyone has a little time to spare. Everyone has the desire
in their heart to see our people united and strong! We are not asking
you for money, for your personal possessions, for your first born
child (lol)...just a little TIME and EFFORT...and for you to use your
strength of spirit to join with us! Please, join with us, attend the
next Native Unity Meeting...at least give an idea of when you are
able to attend and we can work around you. One people! One voice!
Tsisqua.

Clearly I state...I was asking only of members TIME and EFFORT...but no doubt you think this is wrong...since you insinuate I havent posted this for no doubt some really terrible reason....lol...I state that clearly native unity is needed....I was receiving anywhere from 20 upwards complaints per day regarding abuse by non natives....but how dare I try to help eh?...lol...you know I should thank you MP...because all you seem to do is indicate just how much hard work and effort I really put into uniting native people...and making a safe place for natives to go to...infact since you started trying to discredit me...all you've served to do is give NAU more publicity and attract more members....so really...Yes...I owe you a big thank you....so thank you I appreciate

[Lonefeather]

Firstly, allow me to introduce myself, as I am aware not introducing yourself is frowned upon....I am Lonefeather.When certain other members decide that they are willing to give up their personal information, I will be more then willing to make everyone aware of my marital status, location, real name...and heck, even my social security number.

Secondly, in light of recent posts, I feel inclined to suggest that perhaps the focus of the Tribal America issues are being overlooked and instead, focus is being placed on the one person who has brought these issues to light... in the form of a personal attack.

I have had the both the displeasure of being a member of TA a few months back, and the pleasure of being a current member of NAU.I can assure you that TA was and still is being mismanaged by non natives.I left there for several reasons.I do not agree with the fact that Pappy is a self proclaimed chief or that he appoints certain members and gives them the title of being an "Elder" within the group.Many times, I was asked for donations to keep the site running although it was considered a non-profit organization.And, lets not forget to mention the fact that there was constant verbal abuse of native people, including myself, by non native people.These antics have not changed.

I known Tsisqua and her family for a time now.I knew of her efforts in TA, the many hours she spent working for our people ( and by our people I mean NATIVE people, not wannabes).She continues to do so at NAU, all in the name of Unity, without payment, and many times without so much as a thank you. Tsissy and NAU do not ask for donations of any kind and never will. There are thousands of members. This should tell you something.So instead of trying to discredit her with your reposted quotes and accusations...perhaps you should be focused on the matter at hand.

With Respect,
Lonefeather (NAU Administration)