Stefan Klemenc /Neil Greenwood

[Greenwood]

I would agree - but: Some years ago I got very positive feedbacks about the page on the Banderas and the National Symbols from S-America Natives, for example. The other short but nice contact was with Mamani, who also (when I remember this correctly) had only positive words. Occasional contacts with normal Indios from Peru which actually happen infrequently in personal contact or via Internet also are positive. None of them plastics or frauds. Hell, many of them literally do not know anything anymore of the Condor except that it is a vulture. Since 1998 I never have achieved bad or any feedback which would harden the fact of exploitation.

So, as far as I know it is no damage I am doing to the credibility of any Native tradition there, except when I distort too much the content of the prophecy. Okay - when the core of the prophecy is actually total different from that what I have written I need urgent clear informations.

Reading through the links I was literally shocked - there is damage done. Real damage. I have altered the intro-page of the Condor-section to emphasize the personal approach and this is to be enough. You cannot expect much more from my side at this moment. " ... Within these pages I am referring to an ancient prophecy of the people of the Andes. I have to point out that I myself did not have any deeper contacts or relations to these proud and beautiful people and my interpretations of the prophecy may not be congruent with their own. My own point of view is largely based on personal insights gained by the deep relation I have with the Spirit of the Condor." - When people not even can read this and understand it, I cannot help and refer to an english-course. After all: No one else in the WWW actually emphasizes the personal approach.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

[TrishaRoseJacobs]

Alright, just going to give you a tip Neil. You seem like a nice guy and this is well intentioned, so don't take it the wrong way but from the way I was raised - someone popping up outta the blue and talking about what sounds like possession etc and being really quite open about it (which I'm sure you think is good, and I'm sure a great many people do appreciate) would be considered a witch - which is not a good thing. Such a person would either be dangerous, crazy or both. I'm only saying it to let you know that the reason why you may find that some native people don't accept you as the open, spiritual guy you clearly try to present yourself as - is because you could be creeping them out. Honestly speaking - that kind of thing creeps me out. I find that kind of thing very off-putting myself and that has little to do with whether I think they are an out and out fraud or not.

Just suggesting that if you want to get along better - maybe you oughtta tone it down a bit, it could make other people less uncomfortable.

[Greenwood]

I know what you try to tell me. Thank you for this note. I was not aware of this, but I have to reply on your post.

Being called a witch is no offense here in germany anymore (I am prefering to be called "Bannsänger", "Kondortänzer" or "Zauberer", Witch or "Hexe" is a female connotated term), well, at least to the scene I am living in. Not to the conservative catholics or materialistic ones, however. I am in the WWW since 1998 and only popped up here outta the blue *g*, you could have found me easily using Google, more then 60 Percent of my visitors do.

Deep-trance is one of the things I am openly talking about here. Many here are not even remote in contact with the kind of spiritual and magical practice I am talking about, that is right. This is not much different in germany. (Un?)fortunately most (if not all) of the so-called NA-"shamanic practitioners" or NA-"shamans" here in Europe (and surely in USA, too) avoid this trance-type. Hell, when a siberian shaman popps up here, actually telling you the same stuff - what would you do then? I simply do not want talking to anyone having real problems with this, it would be of no help to them or myself and simply is a waste of time.

If I would not have been asked those questions I would never have talked about this - but here are some around who asked very personal questions to me which demanded very clear answers. Would you have remained silent or lied being in my position? I tried to be concealed here, exactly because of that what you are writing: using an uncommon name I rarely utilize and avoiding mentioning anything in connection with this. I was being asked here like a prisoner on court. I AM dangerous, and I do not deny this - I do not deny that I am capable of being really nasty. This "Love & Light" Bull.... is not my stuff. But it is the same when you are owning a knife. You can use it for cutting a leaf of bread or to kill your enemy. In order to heal or repair some things you must know how to accomplish them. This was not the easy-way I had to learn this in my past, you can bet on this. I had to explain myself and my relation to Condor's Spirit because I was being asked to.

I do not tone anything down. I did this in my first years. "Political Correctness" is a unknown term in my live, because I was tested to my life by the spirits for seven years after I was been revived in 1989. I am doing a unique thing and I stand with my life for it, otherwise it would not be possible and I would not be here, alife and healthy. I am a nice and open guy with whom you can have a really nice time when being around here in old Germany. Nothing scaring or demonic stuff, evil witchcraft or so. This stuff is far below that what I am living and doing.

Yours and a happy New Year 2008!

Neil Greenwood

[Defend the Sacred]

Hey, Neil. If you're concerned about the proper use of terms, and the cultures they come from, may I direct your attention to this page on your website: http://www.kondor.de/shaman/samain.html

The Gaelic festival of Samhain, while traditionally a time to honor the dead, has nothing to do with "the spirits of the six directions," a "Roll of Martyrs" or "shamans." These are all foreign concepts to Gaelic traditions.

The whole "Burning Times" mythos comes from Wicca. While persecution and execution of those labeled "witches" certainly happened across Europe and the Americas, the phrase "The Burning Times," along with the fallacy that those executed had anything to do with pre-Christian religions, is a Wiccan construct, dreamed up in the 1940s or thereabouts.  Wicca has appropriated some terms and ideas from Celtic cultures (and Hindu, Buddhist and misunderstood First Nations ones, as well) but Wicca is not Celtic.  While I understand that many people have emotional or psychological reasons for identifying with the poor souls who were murdered in this way, and that is part of why some modern people call themselves "Witches,"  the Wiccan (and some, just odd) material you have on that page has nothing to do with Gaelic cultures. If you are sincere about fighting cultural appropriation, and respecting the meanings of words, I would strongly suggest you take that page down.

Tapadh Leibh

[Leonard]

This brings up a question in my mind as how do systems of 'thought' and 'spirituality' evolve ?

I must admit that some of the web-sites in the EU do look pretty wild, but I wonder just as times change and as human consciousness changes; how do concepts of 'spirituality' evolve to keep up with humanity ? ... and how may we test what is 'inspiration' as apposed to 'exploitation' ? ... when can we be sure when 'spirit' speaks and when 'people' speak ?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1180/buber-heschel.htm

The 'great awakening' of the 'ghost dance' among the Lakota  http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/eight/gddescrp.htm  http://www.viewzone.com/wovoka.html  seems to me to be a rapid and drastic change - as I understand that 'traditional' systems of 'spirituality' are slowly built by consensus among the leaders and the elders.

I agree that there is a lot of 'stuff' out there in cyber-space and how may we be really sure of what is 'real' and what is not 'real' ?

Leonard.

[Greenwood]

I was wondering, and I am not concerned. Simply curious because I wondered about an Hebrew term appearing in connection with Cherokees.

Regarding your concerns:

The Samain festival itself is not only Gaelic, the term however is. But certainly not the festival per se, which you can find in Europe everywhere. The whole stuff I listed is not older then 20 years. It was invented by the "Riders of the Crystal Storm", which was an active community in the first years of the Internet. I mentioned that origin, however. I do not see any reason to put it down, only because it is not traditional and actually marked as such. The only reason to put it down would be an objection by the original authors or my slowly progressing reworking of the whole website, which actually has several points listed I have to change. I am NO traditionalist, hanging on dusty things which sense is long lost.

Where I do claim to represent Gaelic cultures on my Website?

I think it clear offtopic to discuss this here and an overreaction.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood.

[Defend the Sacred]

... and how may we test what is 'inspiration' as apposed to 'exploitation' ? ... when can we be sure when 'spirit' speaks and when 'people' speak ?
... ... ...
The 'great awakening' of the 'ghost dance' among the Lakota  ... seems to me to be a rapid and drastic change - as I understand that 'traditional' systems of 'spirituality' are slowly built by consensus among the leaders and the elders.

My opinion: When a change happens within a community of traditional people, it's the business of those people, and especially the elders of that community, to decide whether the change is good or not.

When someone from outside that traditional community wants to change something, and usually from a ceremony they only know about from reading books by outsiders, or by learning from outsiders, they have no right to be performing that ceremony at all, let alone changing it. Their wanting to mess with that ceremony is not growth, it's appropriation/exploitation.

When someone tells me they are imitating a ceremony from a culture they are not part of, because "the spirits told them to", I have to ask why "the spirits" would tell them to do something that just so happens to look like something they read in a Nuage book or on a website. If the actual spirits are actually speaking to them, might not the ceremony look more like what is actually done by the cultures those spirits come from?

And as the Ancestors are incredibly important in many of these cultures, mightn't we be more likely to see legitimate spiritual contacts arising from their own ancestral cultures, as opposed to ones from peoples they've never met and lands where they've never lived?

The people I've met who claim to be doing (their idea of) Indigenous ceremonies they have no connection to, "because the spirits told them" are messed up. They're more likely to be tripping on mushrooms in their condos, banging on a drum they bought at their local Nuage store (or off the Internet) than having any legitimate spirit contacts.

And even "elders" in a community can fuck up, can change, can get off track. I've met people online who I thought were doing it right, only to meet them in person and find out they're frauds. In one case, I'd "known" the person for twelve years, and we'd even published work together. I made some bad mistakes because I thought I could trust what they were telling me. I was wrong. You can't really know about anyone you meet on the Internet. Ceremony doesn't happen on the Internet, it happens in person, in community. If you don't have an in-person community, it's time to find or build one. The Internet is great for spreading information quickly, and finding out about people, but it's not a substitute for interacting in real life.

[Leonard]

That is a very good point. I wonder about that one myself. Where do the people in Europe or America get their authority to 'correct' the traditional people about their own ceremonies ?

Leonard.

[Defend the Sacred]

Where I do claim to represent Gaelic cultures on my Website?

By calling it by a Gaelic name.

The fact that others rip it off, too, doesn't mean it's ok for you to do it. You're here claiming to be concerned about cultural appropriation, so, like others on this board have tried to do, I'm pointing some out to you.

We're talking about misrepresentations here;  it's not off-topic. But as long as we're talking about your website and misrepresentations...

I think the problems with your site, and your stated objectives in being here, have been pointed out well already in this thread: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1448 and others. But now that I've had a chance to look at the site in question, I'd like to add another point:

I am not pretending being an Native American (this time from South America) - on the contrary: I emphasize the cultural indepent way I am going there. I am part of an european line of geomantics and magicians (handed down by my father and grandfather). Until recently we avoided even using the internet as medium because the prosecution we still have to face from church and many institutions adjacent to this power-structure.

Neil, you claim above to have inherited some sort of Germanic tradition in your family (I think that's what you're claiming). The thing is, with pages like this, http://www.kondor.de/runes/runicsham.html , where you stir together pop-culture Rune magic  ("Runic Yoga, Runic Gymnastics") with Harner shamanism and Hindu/Yogic concepts...

Chakras can be balanced with Sowilo or the Chakra Runes (Berkano: Sahasrara, Ehwaz: Ajna, Mannaz: Vishudda, Laguz: Anahata, Ingwaz: Manipura, Dagaz: Swadhisthana, Othala: Muladhara). I draw the runes over the chakras during auric massage and balancing.

...that sort of stuff is not going to be very convincing to those who are coming from a Germanic polytheistic background, unless they're German Nuagers with no genuine connection to actual, historical or folkloric Germanic traditions. So, while it's clear to all of us that you're misrepresenting South American indigenous traditions, it's also clear that you're not accurately representing Germanic indigenous ones, either.

I would suggest that as long as you're doing this sort of eclectic/salad-bar-spirituality thing, where you're mixing together bits inspired by a variety of cultures, you're not going to find a lot of peace, acceptance  or approval when dealing with traditional people from any of these cultures.

As you are promoting these views on the Internet - where they may be imitated by others - you are, in effect, teaching these things, even if you make no money off it.

So, whether it's on or off topic, most of the stuff on your site is inaccurate and inappropriate, not just the Samhain page. If you're really serious about fighting cultural appropriation, I think you need to look in your own house first.

[Greenwood]

I am not mentioning much of my traditions on my Website. I mention practical stuff and own ideas. That much you should have noted already. Ceremonial Magics are quite shunned until today, and certainly the things I learned and practice. Although I have included some things of this on it and planning to do more.

Do you have a problem in practical works with Runes? I am proposing that you should check the practical side of the things I mentioned. You did not, thats sure. And I repeat: I am no traditionalist but well aware of exploitations. Anything, really anything, practical about Runes is modern invention and not traditional. So whats your problem? There simply are no traditional runic practical workings - maybe the Staff-Tradition is an exception but I doubt that.

Maybe its Pop in your eyes. Its practical and it works. Runic-Gymnastics was invented in the 20's and even that I mentioned somewhere. Traditional approaches are non-existant, regarding this kind of practice. So what? Non-existant traditions cannot be misused - that you do not understand.

Yes, I stir together "Harnershamanism" and other concepts. You can find this easily. Harners Shamanism exploited some native rituals and that is the point I realized some time ago - hence my reworking and corrections I am trying to do at the moment. There is no reason to repeat this all the time wherever I am posting a comment or a question here. Thats ridiculous. It is also ridiculous that I should not take comparisons with other systems. The rest I have already stated in this other thread. Clearly you are putting me happily in the misusing corner.

So you are blaming me for all that? Nice.  Then - move me to Fraud and Plastic and be glad with that. One enemy you have won with this step - and you can take a bet that I never forget. I seek no acceptance by people incapable of being openminded. I avoid those and have no dealings with them. It is useless and has no future.

Salad-bar-Spiritualist and Misuser by Heart, Whats next on the insulting list?

Neil Greenwood.

[Leonard]

I wonder if this is symptomatic of my 'western culture'. People like to use the generic 's' word (spirit) to assume legitimacy and authority and offer a 'smorgasbord' in the restaurant of 'spirituality', to appeal to the widest possible audience of 'diners'. In this country, we have even been known to have 'drive through' churches where you do not even have to leave your car. ... or stay at home and touch the television if you want to connect to 'jesus'.

Leonard.

[Greenwood]

I am linking these Threads to my English and German Discussion Boards. Surely they are interested in this - and it will be interesting to see the discussions.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood.

[Greenwood]

One thing IS symptomatic in Western Cultures: The syncretism. Here we are living in a multi-cultured society with really many different cultures living in the same street, door-by-door. They often and happily adopt habits, terms and even some rituals from each other, melting them together to a new kind of spirituality, not even remotely traditional. Well, I am part of this mixture, but I have own roots.

Syncretism is not that traditional thing, yes. But it is a valid path - otherwise you have to blame literally millions of peoples for misusing and exploiting which they don't - when it helps them and offers them a new interpretation and different overview of their lives. This clearly is a different approach then the pure traditional one, but it is also part of human history and thus nothing really new.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

[Leonard]

Yes, western culture tends to be more 'poly-cultural' and 'traditional' people 'mono-cultural'. I think what the objection is that the 'traditionalists' are not a part of our culture, and we have no business trying to adapt theirs into ours.

Leonard.

[Sword of Zilu]

It is funny how some so-called "traditionalists" oppose syncretism.

Historically, all forms of spirituality are highly syncretic. This is because traditions are nothing but disposable vehicles, by which universal truths are transmitted.

All traditions have some truths. All truths are compatible. Therefore, when one person is influenced by two or more traditions, the natural tendency is to synthesise them into one system.

Examples:

In the Coptic magical texts, four magical traditions play equal part: Jewish, Greek, Egyptian, and Christian.

In Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy, every page referred to dozens of exotic traditions.

In Daoist magic, people use pseudo-Sanskrit sounds.

In Traditional Chinese Religion, people worship Buddhist, Confucian, Daoist, and Shamanist deities at once.

In many modern Chinese religions, you even see Christian symbols, such as angels. Many newly-written sacred texts have Jesus conversing with Buddha, Confucius, and Laozi.

Tibetan astrology is a fusion of Chinese astrology and Indian astrology.

Conclusion:

The reason some people grasp onto one tradition or another tradition is because they have no true spiritual experience. For those who know true spirituality, efficacy is the measure of truth.

True traditionalists, such as many Daoists whom I know, are supportive of the New Age enterprise. They are also supportive of Neo-Paganism and Wicca.

Do you think the ancients rejected innovation and syncretism? If so, why did Caesar describe the gods of the Gauls in Roman terms? If so, why did Plutarch, Plotinus, and Iamblichus freely discuss the religions of the East?

Truth is universal. If something is true, then it is true anywhere, anytime, for any person. Traditions have nothing to do with it. Unfortunately, people forget this when they discuss religion.

Scholarship has no direct relevance to spirituality. A spiritual teaching is invalid unless it can prove itself. Scholars can talk. They can also write abstruse articles read by other scholars. But can they demonstrate any spiritual accomplishments?

This is especially poignant in relation to my country, China. Because most scholars of Confucianism, Daoism, and Traditional Chinese Religion do not believe in ancient things. Therefore, they churn out books after books of scholarly "facts," which have no bearing upon reality.

True religion is only found in the villages, in illiterate shamans, in mountain hermits.

Anyway, I doubt what I say will convince people on this forum. I write here only because a friend asked me to.

Blessings for all.