Your opinion, please

[frederica]

He made the recordings for the University to be used for teaching. They were taken and made commerical. And that what seems to always happen. There was no premission give for that. Many Ndns are now Christian, and they sing Christian songs. I doubt if that is appropiation. It's part of their religion. I know a Choctaw man that is a Christian minister, not sure which. But his wish was to have Bibles in the Choctaw language. It's not appropiation it trying to save the language. That's not commerical. Most of the theft goes commerical, everything from recordings, ceremonies, or like the so-called  knock off"medicine bags, sacred bundles".

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Ganeida, you've just brought the possible end of your time on this forum a lot closer. If you're not interested in opinions you don't like, why ask? It's clear you should not be listening to this recording. You will leave this forum sooner rather than later unless you learn to respect Native people.

You mentioned spirits: has it occurred to you that they might not like being messed around by ignorant people? I think you should be asking how you can return your copy of the recording to Lakota people, for whom it was intended.

[NanticokePiney]

You mentioned spirits: has it occurred to you that they might not like being messed around by ignorant people? I think you should be asking how you can return your copy of the recording to Lakota people, for whom it was intended.

 That is the most wisest suggestion on this thread and a excellent idea.
  It is a shame there is not a clause in NAGRPA that says a AIM Akicita can confiscate this stuff and return it or destroy it. I would enjoy torching a big pile of fake pipes, dream catchers and medicine bags while standing around the bonfire listening to Deep Purple and sucking down a few Tecates

[earthw7]

Yes, I understand what you say.  The history of abuse is deplorable.  But I do have this to say.  I wasn't there, I did not do it....and neither did any of my ancestors.  If I had it in my power I would change it.  To blame ALL non-Natives is wrong. Do I pray for things to be better?  Ya, you can bet that I do.  And, BTW, I am not Christian nor am I Wiccan.   My point in using the "Apostles Creed" and the "Wiccan Rede", as examples, was this

"I'm not the judge of whether or not they are being used respectfully.  That lies in the heart of the user."

Ganieda what you don't understand is that you are one of the abusier right now. What I have been saying is happening today. The government today is still killing Indians. 
For me I am forbidden to sing the song unless I am in prayer and I can not sing them around women who might be on the monthly time or anyone who has been drinking or doing drugs or in a bad frame of mind.
We are taught that these must not be used in the general public and each time they are sung it is a prayer. I wonder why a person outside my culture has more rights to listen to our songs any time they want. When we are only allow at certain time.

How is this kind of belief help our young people learning their culture?

[educatedindian]

Let me bring up something by way of comparison. Annika was given an eagle feather a few years ago. She felt it would be wrong to hold onto it and asked everyone's advice in here. Finally she gave it to Arvol Looking Horse. (Thus the film, Spirits For Sale.)

I also remember meeting an anthro over there in Sweden who spent quite a bit of time pushing a museum to repatriate a totem pole the museum had. It was a refreshing change in attitude compared to many (but not all) American anthros.

Another thing, I know there are some lit professors who no longer teach about certain Native stories at certain times of the year because traditionally you are only supposed to hear them during certain seasons. They don't want to take them out of their context. 

Ganeida, why not look into giving the recordings to the right people?

[Freija]

What would be the cost for us, non-Natives, to give up buying ceremonies or give up playing around with sacred items? Well, you might say it takes something out of our lives, i e the feeling of being "special". And we might loose the social part of it, belonging to a group - and probably worshipping a "guru". That is the price we have to pay. Compare that to the price indigenous peoples all over the world have paid to protect their cultures.....

Non-Natives who claim to get closer to the spirits by using "Native American spirituality" have probably never given up something sacred, something they value deeply, to do the right thing:  to give it back where it belongs. That act in itself is 10 times as spiritual as any faked ceremonies. There were pipes and eaglefeathers being handed back to Arvol when he was over here in Sweden, some people cried  when they handed over them. Not because they lost something valuable, not because they had to give up their "job" as a shaman, but because the feeling of doing a spiritual thing was stronger than anything they had ever experienced before.

What would be the cost of giving up a CD?

[LittleOldMan]

There are times when somethings just do not need to be put on a board.  When I find myself in such a delima I go to one of the people from whom I can obtain a well considered answer.  I have developed over the years a network of friends, acquaintances, and yes even elders of several Tribes and cultures it is to them that I go for counsel.  I then quietly without fanfare take care of what ever I it is that I need to.  This is a good site for research and warning to those who watch.  By being for warned we can sometimes even lend a hand to stop the abuse.  Remember we need to guard the culture and  share only with permission.  LaDonna's walk is a Lakota's walk not a Cherokee walk or Senaca walk.  My walk is one of a Christian and while I may not be able to share the walk of a Lakota or even agree with their view on some things I will support and fight to my last breath their right to their culture and ceremony.  Creator put them here for a reason and gave them there culture.  Who am I to second guess God.  I am as all ways  "LittleOldMan"   

[Defend the Sacred]

I left this thread in frustration, but came back today to make a point that I now see, with gratitude, has been made by others. 

I also believe that the most spiritual act that can be done with these recordings, the only act that will bring the "peace and blessings of the spirits", is to give the recordings and all profits made from them back to the family of John Around Him. If for any reason his family are not the most appropriate people to take care of this (I'm not part of his community so I wouldn't know the particulars), I think the recordings and profits should be given to the traditional Lakota elders in his community who are carrying on the traditions he wanted preserved. I believe this is the only "spiritual" thing to do in this situation.

[earthw7]

I want to thank you all for understanding what I am saying
Moma Porcupine, frederica, Barnaby_McEwan,  Al, Freija, LittleOldMan and Kathryn I want to say how good this makes me feel because I try to explain and people just don't understand.

,
 

[Defend the Sacred]

Thank you, Earth, for staying here and speaking up, even though this can be a very frustrating place sometimes. I very much appreciate your presence here, and thank you for your words and your wisdom.

[LittleOldMan]

Thank you Earth I do understand.  I think.  Those of us who are comfortable within our own cultures do not need to borrow from others.  We need to understand how to appreciate when we are invited to share as well as understand and not be offended when we are not.  "LittleOldMan"

[debbieredbear]

I have been thinking about this. I have two examples I hope that Ganeida will think on. Ganeida, you say that it wasn't you who did those things/stole those songs. That is correct. However, what if you bought a car and you really really liked that car. It gave you great pleasure to drive it. Then you discovered that you had bought a STOLEN car. Would you still argue that you should be able to keep it? By law, even though you are innocent of stealing, the car is still stolen and you still have to return it. Second example: Someone took land from force, say 100 years ago. They and their descendants benefited from that land and it's resources. Now the descendent says "Well, I did not steal that land so why are the dexcendants of the origional owners angry with me? I am innocent." But morally, are they? They benefitted from THEFT.

[Ganieda]

Mr. McEwan

If you're not interested in opinions you don't like, why ask? It's clear you should not be listening to this recording.

I asked because I truly want to try to understand.  Unfortunately I am of a different culture so it is very difficult for me to understand.  At least the first few answers were.  They were sort of worded "because" and I just didn't understand "because".   Plus  one person did answer

"No, your not misusing them." 

So I was a little confused on the issue.  Now, finally, I have some examples that I can actually relate to and I can understand better how you feel.  I appreciate your clarification... and your patience with my "ignorance".  I know, I don't live your "life-way", so understanding it is very difficult.  I'm doing my best and learning as I go. 

[Freija]

Thanks, Earth. You know, a lot of people do understand. Unfortunately, the voices of the exploiters seem so much louder than other voices. Maybe because they argue so much about their rights.....  

Personally, I think being involved with Native Americans as a non-Native gives you a fantastic opportunity to find out what kind of person you are. Because you will always be presented with opportunities to make money or to boost your ego. A Native guy in Canada gave me a videotape some years ago, I looked at it when I got back home and it was a videotape of a Sundance !!! Oh my Gawd! They had filmed just about everything......  Well, he wanted me to sell it in Europe and we would go on tour together. I sent it back straight away. Guess, I could have made some good money there. But could I have lived with myself afterwards?! Never!

I agree with Debbie, it doesn´t matter who stole what - it is a matter of respect for the rightful owners.

[earthw7]

You know Freija seening something like that would hurt because all the prayers of those people would be forgot. We know that the Great Mystery is listening to us but by stealing those prayers you take something so important to us the lives of our people.