Cross cultural CATCH-22

[A.H.]

Hello everyone, I am new here, but otherwise a long time observer of those topics you debate here.

First I have to welcome your effort to expose the frauds and all the new age "bull-shit".

I also apologize for some grammatic mistakes I might make since I am not a native english speaker.

I don't write with hate in mind, so try not to read it that way. I try to get some feedback and knowledge.

The major "problem" I see is a cross-cultural catch-22 that seems to be implied. Sort of reversed racism - If I am not native to some culture I am not allowed to practise its ritual, music, etc. even if I really try to learn it properly or just to be touched by it and gain some knowlege or at least comfort. The same as saying if you are not a "white-man" you cannot be a lawyer or academic scholar or similar.  The same as saying - if you are an "Indian" you cannot go to the european classical music concert, play piano or visit Christian church ritual (I would like to see that, )

I will speak with broad strokes - there is no space to delve in even more details to start this debate. But I will try to stay in the frame of "truth" and even this short account and superficial statements should have some validity in the so far approved history. Correct me if I fail.

The majority of the so-called western civilisation is culturally and morally based on either some form of Christianity or Judaism. And some small amount on Islam that is also so feared of in the West.

The scientific culture, philosophy, mathematics, logic,  etc. has its origins in Antic Greece and antic middle-eastern civilisations - Persian, Egyptian, etc. empires further influenced by far-eastern civilisations of India and China.

Without the cross-cultural contacts with Arabs and even the "side effects" of the crusades the mathematics and hygiene in Europe would be of less than stellar condition some 800 years ago... 

There were the ancient cultures in Europe that we know very little about and whose rituals and transcendental practices were outcast and slowly exterminated by the agressive Christianity.

The missionaries and colonialists did or tryed to do that to the aboriginal people anywhere they came - Americas, Australia, Africa, etc.

The core reason (as I see it) that caused the New-age movements and similar ideas and practises is a lack of authentic "soul-food" in our Western culture. Big religions are all too political and their rituals and practices became very superficial. If there ever was any substantial massage in those religions it is today transformed into lame rules and dogmas that are the same as new-agey fake "indian shaman whatever".  Also the harmful side-effects in those Churches are similar to the most serious new age frauds - financial exploatation, greed, pedophilia, child molestations, etc.

I have a problem with this Catch-22 in the "spiritual path".

We have no culture of transcending the rational thought in our wetern culture (I'm from Europe as you could guess)... And I have sort of "mystic mind" from my childhood on. I have a strong urge to know things that cannot be known in a conventional way.  "Why we are here", "Who we are", "The meaning of life". AND - I am totally RATIONAL at the same time. Sceptical towards new age, sceptical towards fraud, sceptical towards religion, reserved towards science - I believe it - but it is limited. It deals with partial and ever changing and fleeting facts and it is also very dogmatic and disrespectful many times. I respect its findings but it doesn't provide the answers to the questions I need to know.

So - the core for the debate as I whish that would follow, would be - "is there any way on this planet for the sincere seekers of the "Unknown spiritual dimensions", subcouncious, superego - call it whatever -  that physically feel the need to know more - to credibly experience the "altered states of mind" with authentic guidance and without damaging anyones culture?

We are all people. Strange and mysterious organisms that were "built" out of an enormous amount of information written in the DNA. Is this so "ordinary"? Can you really just wave a hand at it and say this is just as it is - nothing extraordinary - well - I feel a pain in the stomach not knowing what is all that really... I hoped for a long time that really credible "brujo" practices have some answers or at least practices that can bring me closer to them. Am I really not entitled to search for that? 

Different cultures produced different knowledge - this century provides amazing means of global communication, that was never possible before and this brings all the trouble, but also all the new possibilities...

We are appaled by seeing authentic "native" practices becoming tourism, shamans for sale, etc. But we fail to see that this was already done to the Christian and other big religions a long time ago. They are sooooo far away from any core spiritual message from Jesus or anybody that it is impossible to decipher now. All we have is greed and politics with those Churches. But there is a natural need to experiences more than just utilitarian life... And they are all so afraid of the direct experiences that the aboriginal people outside of this system still practise...

Why shouldn't we study the effects ayahuasca and similar plants have on our perception? Why shouldn't we expand our philosophy and science with the transpersonal information we might gather?

Should we ignore tha amazing fact that there exist some plants that change our perception in such dramatical ways? Why is that so anyway? Just for kicks?

So.....

I spoke too much. Proceede as you please - and - I also seek some real and honest way to have a strong mind-changing ritual - no new-age fraud - no womanizing or alcoholic fake shaman to exploit me, but someone for real that gained some insight from a life-long experiences with altered states of mind and communicating directly with "gods". Is there something like that. I am prepared to invest my lifetime in that - but I don't want to be a part of a sect and I don't want to go to the monastery... See the catch?

Or is there only plastic spirituality on one side, traditionally reserved spirituality on the other and rationalistic thought in the middle?

best and sincere regards, Andrej

[Leonard]

I wonder about the use of any chemical (plant or synthetic) to produce altered states of consciousness in seeking 'truth'. My generation went through all of that in the 1960's and I (personally) did not experience or see in others any deep insight produced. I think that the danger is that it may produce euphoria and certain subjective insight, but I think little more might be gained by the 'chemical path'.

Leonard.

<edit>

"Carlos Castanada" tried to open that one up also in the 1960's-70's and many people got really excited about that one, but he was not whom he presented himself to be and a lot of people got 'burned' on that one (myself included), so I am only speaking from my own experience of disappointment. Maybe other's think this is the 'truth, way, and the 'light'', but I do not.

<edit2>

... some food for thought => http://www.culturecourt.com/e-books/City/City2.htm

[A.H.]

I wonder about the use of any chemical (plant or synthetic) to produce altered states of consciousness in seeking 'truth'. My generation went through all of that in the 1960's and I (personally) did not experience or see in others any deep insight produced. I think that the danger is that it may produce euphoria and certain subjective insight, but I think little more might be gained by the 'chemical path'.

Leonard.

<edit>

"Carlos Castanada" tried to open that one up also in the 1960's - 70's and many people got really excited about that one, but he was not whom he presented himself to be and a lot of people got 'burned' on that one (myself included), so I am only speaking from my own experience of disappointment. Maybe other's think this is the 'truth, way, and the 'light'', but I do not.

This was abuse... Carlos Castaneda faked the truth, created a myth and 60' generation embraced the novelty of psychedelics too easy and superficial.

I can't see any fault in great minds like Aldous Huxley or Alfred Hofmann. I wish science would embrace this topic deeply. It is already done, but slowly going and also restricted by prohibitive laws unfortunately.

My limited experience is quite different - I didn't just see some interesting patterns and had fun. I had complex asociative thoughts, synesthetic feelings and thinking, many unspeakable insights and most profoundly my body disintegrated and I experienced total freedom from form and preconcieved ideas - I felt "nothingness". Those few experiences I had were so profound that my complete way of thinking an reasoning changed.

That is why I don't seek entertainment, but a respectful contact with a culture that uses those plants traditionally and a guidence from more intelligent and experienced travelers to the Unknown.

If you analyze replies in many forums, youtube and similar and also in the real life about any more controversial topic you can realize that it is simply a fact that a vast majority of people are more than just "ignorant" but really terribly stu..d. But I don't blame them. I can be a little afraid of such statistic, but we are all in a common soup and seeking more meaningful ways... So I am not too surprised to see all that new-agey exploatation, abusing the drugs and psychoactives, strange politics ruling the world, etc.

It is also interesting how some very intelligent men, scientists embrace the psychoactive substances to subsequently help them achieve some groundbreaking discoveries... two people involved in the research of the DNA and both Nobel prize laureates for example: Kary Mullis (fact) and Francis Crick (not 100% proved as far as I know, but very likely)
 
We should not fear that - we should research that and if possible respectfully gain some knowledge from the traditional users whose traditions know that use for millenia and more...
 
And just BTW - "chemical" is everything concerning our body - eating food makes chemical changes, being afraid, happy - all the affects make chemical changes in the brain, etc. If some substances cause such dramatic reactions in our brain this cannot be just a coincidence and without any use - actually - traditional use of those effects is exactly the proof of that.
Also - as Jeremy Narby asks - how is it possible to find the exact combination for a brew like ayahuasca that has a psyhoactive component and an inhibitor of certain encymes that would otherwise diminish the effects in our digestive system without having knowledge of molecular biology - and they don't ofcourse - at least not in western scientific way. The method of trial and error is almost impossible in the enormous biodiversity in Amazon... The chances to find such combination are some millions to one or something like that... Isn't this incredible and utterly interesting? Should we ignore that know that we have the access to this knowledge?

We should find a solution to fair global knowledge and culture - it is inevitable I guess...





 

[Leonard]

We were all honestly seeking then as I am sure that you are attempting to do now - why was drug abuse then not considered drug abuse now - we all thought we were seeking 'god' and 'truth' then - but we really only wanted an excuse to get 'high'.

Leonard.

[A.H.]

We were all honestly seeking then as I am sure that you are attempting to do now - why was drug abuse then not considered drug abuse now - we all thought we were seeking 'god' and 'truth' then - but we really only wanted an excuse to get 'high'.

Leonard.

Read more carefully what I wrote - and your last sentence answers your question about abuse. Abuse happens today, too.

Don't judge others upon yourself. Well, we all do that - but we often make mistakes. Trust me - you are making a mistake here. I have deep physical need to know more that rational thought gives us from my adolescent years on. As a child I often cryed at night because I felt questions like "who I really am", "what this world means", etc. with a very disturbing urge that felt like ache in the solar plexus.  Later I somehow tried to cope with it and also had some crisis because of that that I won't talk about here. Absolutely nothing in my culture could help me with this questions and we were not even Christians to at least have some superficial comfort they get...

Only much later I discovered that some traditions use some special substances for that kind of questions.
And unfortunately it was through C.Castaneda when I was 16 that I first heard of that. It was interesting and fun read, but I long ago dismissed it as fake...

I never had contact with drugs since I lived in such sheltered and nice enviroment. I didn't even try cannabis or smoke tobacco. I drank only moderately with meals - we have a wine drinking culture here.
 
I am 33 and only tried salvia divinorum two years ago and afterwards occasionally few more times to this day. It was very revealing and deep. I used it in a minimalistic ritual setting - no new-agey shit around - just chewing it in the dark of my home and setting my mind on transcending coded reality and trying to operate beyond reason.

When the onset of visuals came in some third session I had that year I could deliberately say it: "don't show me gimmicks, don't just play around", I need some answers and I disintegrated - I cannot describe you how powerful this was and since then I seek more expert knowledge about this. With all this fake new age "bull-shit" around on one side and too simplistic rationalists that dismiss it all as fooling around and getting "high" it is really hard not to give up the search.

best regards

[Leonard]

why should I trust you and believe that a 'messed up' drug state now tells you any more what it did not tell us in the '60's ?

Leonard.

[A.H.]

It did tell something to some people I guess. Abuse is when you seek "high" as you said and even that you need excuses... Use is when you use it to try to get answers even though you maybe don't.
Abuse is using it in parties for kicks and being overwhelmed by strangenes, use is when you respectfully delve into depths of complex associative thought in a proper setting.

I am not claiming I know something definite - that is why I seek proper quidance that doesn't exist anymore in our culture.

And I am certain that dismissing other cultures' findings and trying to invent something alone is not the most practical way.  Chewing salvia on my own or having curanderos guidance are surely totally different things.

I don't seek novelty, I seek healing. I belive it is ok for aboriginal people to use western medicine when needed and I belive it is ok for us to seek psychologic / spiritual healing that they perform much better than our medicine...


I don't want to argue...

 

[Leonard]

yeah, we smoked 'hash' and read and discussed ; "Journey to Ixtlan", but it did not 'cut the cheese' in the 'real world'.

Leonard.

[A.H.]

yeah, we smoked 'hash' and read and discussed ; "Journey to Ixtlan", but it did not 'cut the cheese' in the 'real world'.

Leonard.

I apologize - we don't understand each other. It is not the same with me (refering to your above statement). At all. You describe typical light abuse - not harmful, just not meaningful...
Maybe something "not drugs related" that I wrote could still be valid to your initial questions on another topic but dismissing is a fast thing when you disprove some part of someones ideas...


best & I finish here

[Moma_porcupine]

Hi AH and welcome

You ask some good questions, and I know these are things a lot of people wonder about.
This is just my own opinion and understanding and if what I am saying here is wrong I hope someone will correct me

The major "problem" I see is a cross-cultural catch-22 that seems to be implied. Sort of reversed racism - If I am not native to some culture I am not allowed to practise its ritual, music, etc. even if I really try to learn it properly or just to be touched by it and gain some knowlege or at least comfort.

What you probably aren't seeing is there is some assumptions underlying this question which are either not true or are contradictory .

The idea of "learn it properly" is contradicted by the idea of removing some selected parts of a cultural practice from the context of the whole culture, community and land base where these practices originated. So if objections are raised because someone is "not native", these objections are generally based on this loss of context and not a persons racial origin. If a person has some strong connection with a Native community they are generally invited to participate in some aspects of the communities culture, which may include some ceremonies. It generally isn't possible to learn something properly and remove this from the rest of it's cultural context.

The same as saying if you are not a "white-man" you cannot be a lawyer or academic scholar or similar.  The same as saying - if you are an "Indian" you cannot go to the european classical music concert, play piano or visit Christian church ritual (I would like to see that, Smiley )

Even if you were 100% indigenous in blood and grew up in a traditional culture, that would not mean you automatically have a right to conduct any  traditional ceremonie you may take a fancy to. People are picked for specific roles, usually because they are the best person to do this and to serve the community in this way. Not because the persons personal ambitions will be gratified by attaining this position. So you see, you are imposing the framework of a non native value system . which puts individual ambition and accomplishment as the first priority. Traditional value systems usually put the long term welfare of the community first.

The majority of the so-called western civilisation is culturally and morally based on either some form of Christianity or Judaism. And some small amount on Islam that is also so feared of in the West.

Cross polination does happen, and I believe the basic core moral values and principals from one culture can interconnect and help strengthen the core moral values in another culture. Differences give us a contrast and can help us examine our cultural assumptions. But imitating some outward part of a culture because it gives us an emotional satisfaction of feeling we have somehow removed ourselves from having to deal with the real problems in the culture we really live in is probably not particularly constructive for the imitator and it belittles and trivializes the culture of the imitated.   

The core reason (as I see it) that caused the New-age movements and similar ideas and practises is a lack of authentic "soul-food" in our Western culture.

I agree, but this "lack of soul food" is not from a lack of quantity but a lack of quality. Non indiginous technological cultures have forgotten how to go deeply into a respectful relationship with the ordinary, and have tried to replace this with a bigger pile of stuff. When the material pile becomes unsatisfactory then there is a tendency to go after a metaphysical pile of stuff.  But the desirable qualities of indigenous cultures probably exists because these cultures have a different framework. Not much can be learned from indigenous cultures as long as non indigenous colonial cultures insist on interpreting these cultures as one more valuable commodity to be mined, because the basic cultural framework of consumerism and individual importance is never modified.

Big religions are all too political and their rituals and practices became very superficial. If there ever was any substantial massage in those religions it is today transformed into lame rules and dogmas that are the same as new-agey fake "indian shaman whatever".  Also the harmful side-effects in those Churches are similar to the most serious new age frauds - financial exploatation, greed, pedophilia, child molestations, etc.

I guess what is important is we deal with whatever is real. Whether that be in our own communities , politicians or religious leaders. There is corruption in every community, and if this isn't dealt with in a truthful and compassionant way it tends to become a bigger and bigger problem . When faith becomes used as a tool of denial, I think it becomes a problem no matter what that faith is. From what I've seen, this can be a problem in indigenous communities too. 

I have a problem with this Catch-22 in the "spiritual path".

We have no culture of transcending the rational thought in our wetern culture (I'm from Europe as you could guess)...
   

And I have sort of "mystic mind" from my childhood on. I have a strong urge to know things that cannot be known in a conventional way.  "Why we are here", "Who we are", "The meaning of life". AND - I am totally RATIONAL at the same time. 

It seems to me there a huge amount that is irrational in European culture, including the expectation that a teeny weeny human being has the capacity or the need to know everything. But if you dig a bit, using rational thought, the irrationality of westren culture is all over the place. Until people face whats really there, I don't think any real answers or trancendence is possible.

Sceptical towards new age, sceptical towards fraud, sceptical towards religion, reserved towards science - I believe it - but it is limited. It deals with partial and ever changing and fleeting facts and it is also very dogmatic and disrespectful many times. I respect its findings but it doesn't provide the answers to the questions I need to know.

So - the core for the debate as I whish that would follow, would be - "is there any way on this planet for the sincere seekers of the "Unknown spiritual dimensions", subcouncious, superego - call it whatever -  that physically feel the need to know more - to credibly experience the "altered states of mind" with authentic guidance and without damaging anyones culture?

Why do you want to expereince "altered states of mind" whats wrong with reality?
 

We are all people. Strange and mysterious organisms that were "built" out of an enormous amount of information written in the DNA. Is this so "ordinary"? Can you really just wave a hand at it and say this is just as it is - nothing extraordinary - well - I feel a pain in the stomach not knowing what is all that really...

I don't see a problem with reality as is described by westren science as long as it is honest enough to admit when it runs into something it doesn't know the answer to.

The problem more seems to be this science takes place in the cultural ethical frame work of looking for ways to dominate and produce an ever growing pile of consumer goods . 

I hoped for a long time that really credible "brujo" practices have some answers or at least practices that can bring me closer to them. Am I really not entitled to search for that?

IMO deconstructing the false cultural assumptions of individual self importance, and that more is better, are the only indigenous practices that are going to bring non indigenous people closer to having a harmonious relationship with anything. And I am not sure what else there is that you would want to "get close to". Sure you are "entitled" to search for that, as long as you go about it in a way that doesn't destroy the very thing you seek to posssess before you understand what it is.   

Different cultures produced different knowledge - this century provides amazing means of global communication, that was never possible before and this brings all the trouble, but also all the new possibilities...

We are appaled by seeing authentic "native" practices becoming tourism, shamans for sale, etc. But we fail to see that this was already done to the Christian and other big religions a long time ago. They are sooooo far away from any core spiritual message from Jesus or anybody that it is impossible to decipher now.

Thats not true. The moral values of Christianity are still valid and not much different than the moral values of indigenous peoples.

All we have is greed and politics with those Churches. But there is a natural need to experiences more than just utilitarian life... And they are all so afraid of the direct experiences that the aboriginal people outside of this system still practise...

Why shouldn't we study the effects ayahuasca and similar plants have on our perception? Why shouldn't we expand our philosophy and science with the transpersonal information we might gather?

That goes back to the whole issue of removing one part of a cultural tradition from the whole culture. The indigenous peoples in the Amazon have formally made a declaration trying to prevent this from happening.

http://www.amazonteam.org/umiyac-declaration.html

Should we ignore tha amazing fact that there exist some plants that change our perception in such dramatical ways? Why is that so anyway? Just for kicks?

I do recall reading somewhere that some scholars believe canabis was used in early Christianity, and even that the burning bush that spoke to Moses and gave the 10 commandments may have been a canabis plant. I guess there is something recorded about people in that area putting these plants on a fire and breathing the smoke as a ceremony. I have no idea if this is true, you would have to research it yourself, but it may be this is a distant part of you own culture. ( Or it may be the figment of the imagination of people who smoked too much of the aforementioned plant, LOL ) Whatever the traditions were in Europe, I have never known a Native Elder who approved of the use of any mind altering substances, and even peyote ceremony is usually frowned on in areas where that was not the tradition.

[earthw7]

While let see:
First i really don't understand the whole concept of christianity,
other then that guy they call jesus live like a Native, he fasted, vision
quested, prayed for his people most of all he died for his people.
but i do understand the need to find oneself.
This simple concept should be a part of everyone life no matter the race
or belief.
The problem comes when people want to take from a culture what they
have no right too.  People have songs, stories, names that just belong to them.
We have ceremonies and ways to ask the listen/hear or use them.
I see is in the euro-culture people all want is a shortcut to our culture and
spirituality. They want a spiritual experience or a fast fix. No matter who it
hurts or no matter what they do to a people.
They may not be true with everyone but we see it over and over again.
 
To be a part of the true native spirituality takes a lifetime of learning
and find that center may not happen until you are an old man or woman.

My traditional are against any drug use.
Of course these are belief of the people in the south.
I guess my problem is people want to know these
things so they mix them all up bewteen nation/bands and clans.
They take something from the south and mix it with the north or
take a song from the enemy tribe and sing to honor another tribe.
They don't do thing in the order that it was told by our people.

Many people today make up traditions and culture so people are unsure
of what is true or not. Then we have these people come and tell us we
are doing our ceremonies wrong or singing the wrong song.

We have all kind of crazy sun dances out there that they are no longer
sacred and no longer have the meaning.

If a person could walk in our shoes for one year you would see things
different.

I alway wondered why euro people think they have rights to native
people beliefs. Where did that come from?

[A.H.]

Your reply Moma_porcupine was beautiful. It radiated peacefulness and calm and thoughtfulness. Thank you.  

Although I didn't mean some things as you interpreted and answered them those are still beautiful answers.

Those words by you stand out for me: "IMO deconstructing the false cultural assumptions of individual self importance, and that more is better, are the only indigenous practices that are going to bring non indigenous people closer to having a harmonious relationship with anything. And I am not sure what else there is that you would want to "get close to". Sure you are "entitled" to search for that, as long as you go about it in a way that doesn't destroy the very thing you seek to posssess before you understand what it is."

It stirred something in me although I don't dare to claim I already understood all the nuances of its meaning.

My intent is not trying to practice indigenous people's rituals myself I just seek a valid and strong healing process. And I thought I saw it in "shamanistic" practices of the different people of the Amazon and their transformative ayahuasca ceremonies.

The part of getting rid of individual self-importance is the most difficult in our society. It is competitive, materialistic and the whole setting is of perpetual grasping for more more more and always progress progress and new new...
I don't feel at home in this. I don't think like this. But I still separate myself from the society and see myself as an idividual - maybe even more because of all that.

I agree that it can come to trivialization of indigenous culture real soon and it is most horrible what happened to the North American indigenous people - I never saw more trivialized presentation and misinterpretation of any other culture.

But if you are a "patient" in a ceremony and your mind is treated by the competent guidance I can't see any harm done to anyone. But you made some good points why this might not work...

Nothing is wrong with reality - there is much wrong with the limited description of it. I am not only rationalyzing here. I am not pretending. I have not wish or need or pathological desire to do that. I just start to percieve it differently.

I mentioned Christianity because it surrounds me - but it is not my culture - I was never iniciated and to me it is as foreign as let's say Shipibo rituals... I have witnessed a christian ritual few times and it looked very sectarian to me. I was appalled. The moral values are very nice (as are in Islam or any other religion), but there is too much very bad ideas and dogmas that surround or even diminish them. And actual practicing them is another thing. How the big Churches operate - manipulate laws, gain wealth, etc. is just horrible.
I don't seek religion - not that one close to me not some foreign.

I maybe expressed myself wrong or too superficial - I don't want to know all - I know how small we are - on Earth, in the enormous Universe - we live on a Pale Blue Dot as Carl Sagan expressed, so tiny and it is our only home.

And the vastness of Unknown is within us and all around us. I feel that from my childhood and it is not just a product of a mind. I feel it physically and I started to see reality with different eyes. I have difficulties functioning in a "utilitarian way" - especially in a society like ours.

I have therefore tried some of those substances and the effects were incredible, but they opened the abyss of new ideas and insights that I couldn't resolve properly.

Use of such "mind altering" practices were common long ago also in our geografical areas, but their useage is extinct now.

I decided to find a competent healer and experience the ayahuasca ceremony - but I discovered a vast area of spiritual tourism and controversy. And so I landed also on this forum that fights all that.

Reality is stranger and more complex than just our everyday whereabouts. There is so much that we don't see but that affects us. I felt just a fraction of that and I wanted to explore that further. It feels like coming home to me - I don't know if it makes sense to you, but that's the feeling.

thank you and best regards








 

[A.H.]

While let see:
First i really don't understand the whole concept of christianity,
other then that guy they call jesus live like a Native, he fasted, vision
quested, prayed for his people most of all he died for his people.
but i do understand the need to find oneself.
This simple concept should be a part of everyone life no matter the race
or belief.
The problem comes when people want to take from a culture what they
have no right too.  People have songs, stories, names that just belong to them.
We have ceremonies and ways to ask the listen/hear or use them.
I see is in the euro-culture people all want is a shortcut to our culture and
spirituality. They want a spiritual experience or a fast fix. No matter who it
hurts or no matter what they do to a people.
They may not be true with everyone but we see it over and over again.
 
To be a part of the true native spirituality takes a lifetime of learning
and find that center may not happen until you are an old man or woman.

My traditional are against any drug use.
Of course these are belief of the people in the south.
I guess my problem is people want to know these
things so they mix them all up bewteen nation/bands and clans.
They take something from the south and mix it with the north or
take a song from the enemy tribe and sing to honor another tribe.
They don't do thing in the order that it was told by our people.

Many people today make up traditions and culture so people are unsure
of what is true or not. Then we have these people come and tell us we
are doing our ceremonies wrong or singing the wrong song.

We have all kind of crazy sun dances out there that they are no longer
sacred and no longer have the meaning.

If a person could walk in our shoes for one year you would see things
different.

I alway wondered why euro people think they have rights to native
people beliefs. Where did that come from?

I see you were hurt bad. What you say makes me angry too.

I don't want to steal your culture.

This global world with all the means of communication makes possible to look around it in a second...

Christianity and materialism took away much from the roots of our older culture that was still alive in Europe some 1500 years ago.

I guess some are born "seekers" and cannot disregard that urge.

Christianity as I said before doesn't make too much sense to me either - and I am NOT Christian. Moral values are ok - everything else is not.

I am somehow embarrased to step in here now.


be well

[Leonard]

*

Leonard.

[A.H.]

Ok - now you say that you do not want to steal the culture - before you say we should - what is it ? take plants and forget it all or what ?

Leonard.

Oh my. Please read exactly Leonard. I was joking back at you - tha we should "steal" more - that means look around and use the knowledge we can find not steal their culture in a form of mimicking their rituals, pretending to be their wise men and such... Check the contest again.

I don't want you no harm really. Not you, not anybody. What you do with all this corespondence is now really strange to me.

So much misunderstanding...

peace