Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka

[epablito]

Sorry, but:

Your site says twice that you run "Indian sweat lodges."

This is translated form Polish name of what was doing there, to avoid confusion. It's easy to get confused with this activity: this is not Finnish or Russian bania (e.g. not in a wooden hut). In the same matter you can say "I cooked some tacos", even though you used Heinz' baked beans, not original Mexican stuff. Or, concerning spiritual matters, "I was doing zen meditation", even though it was in e.g. in gym in Germany. But you can't claim "I am 4th grade zen buddism teacher", unless you can prove it.

When told you have no right to do this, you claim you're really doing a nice European sauna and decide that Freija has, in making clear to you the error of your ways, somehow legitimized them.  Then you say you want this whole thread to disappear because some "opinions" that are already on-line might be seen on-line.

First of all, what law states that someone has no right to do "sweat lodge" for himself and his friends? I'm not fighting with you, I'm just curious and looking for answer...

Secondly: calm down, please, the discussion will be more meaningful.

/../In other words, "Stop, Mr Jozwiak, you have no right to do it."/../

With all good will I can give to this discussion, I don't understand this. Please explain?

AFAIK there are two ways of treating "sweat lodge issue" even in 100% pure native Indian tradition. Not everyone agrees with Russell Means. I have no respect for "commercial plastic shamans", but if you judge too quickly, you misjudge.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Epablito, I notice that articles written by you appear on Jozwiak's site. He's insulted our intelligence already; now you seem to be doing the same by asking for explanations of perfectly plain statements. Your English is clearly good enough for you to understand them without further explanation.

[Freija]

With all good will I can give to this discussion, I don't understand this. Please explain?

AFAIK there are two ways of treating "sweat lodge issue" even in 100% pure native Indian tradition. Not everyone agrees with Russell Means. I have no respect for "commercial plastic shamans", but if you judge too quickly, you misjudge.

Proclamation on the exploitation of Lakota ceremonies:
http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1051280913

Quote:
* I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony): Those that run this sacred rite should be able to communicate with Tun-ca-s'i-la (our Sacred Grandfathers) in their Native Plains tongue. They should also have earned this rite by completing Han-ble-c'i-ya and the four days and four years of the Wi-wanyang wa-c'i-pi.

It is correct that there are two ways to treat these issues: to follow the protocol. Or not.

Which is your way of treating "the sweatlodge issue" ?

[Moma_porcupine]

Well put Freija.

I saved this thread on a floppy just before Mr Jozwiak deleted it. If one of the moderators
wants to, or knows how, I could send it as an attachment ( email)  or just copy it and send it PM and it could be reposted.

[epablito]

Epablito has articles (in Polish, unfortunately) on Jozwiak's site.

Yes, I have. We are happy with our freedom of speech here in cold dark Poland

In case you don't understand Polish:
First article is about Mitra's dungeon temple beneath old church in Rome, Italy.

Second article is about some examples of dreams being treated as source of inspiration: e.g. Kekule (chemist), Thomas Edison, Black Elk, Albert Einstein.

None of this is about sweatlodge, though.

BTW, this information wouldn't be possible to obtain without using my email address, which was supposed to be kept private on this forum. Why do you, Barnaby_McEwan, use my private information which I sent while registering to this forum? What have I done wrong to be treated like this? In case of any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

[epablito]

Proclamation on the exploitation of Lakota ceremonies:
http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1051280913

Thank you for the link. This document is extremely important and I haven't ever read it before.

* I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony): Those that run this sacred rite should be able to communicate with Tun-ca-s'i-la (our Sacred Grandfathers) in their Native Plains tongue. /../

I've never heard that someone ever has claimed he's doing Inipi ceremony in Poland. This probably should be treated as fraud in terms of this document.

However, there are purification ceremonies, which are not Lakota/Dakota/Nakota/Yankton Sioux/Oglala tradition. Those ceremonies are not "forbidden" in the doc. Does is make sense?

/../It is correct that there are two ways to treat these issues: to follow the protocol. Or not./../

Yes. If someone says "I'm doing Inipi ceremony", he must follow the protocol or clearly state, that it has nothing to do with the Inipi ceremony, as described in the document signed by native Indian Bundle Keepers of those tribes.

BTW, to make things clear: I've never been a "sweatlodge" leader nor even participated in a ceremony which was claimed to be Inipi ceremony...

[epablito]

BTW, this information wouldn't be possible to obtain without using my email address, which was supposed to be kept private on this forum. Why do you, Barnaby_McEwan, use my private information which I sent while registering to this forum? What have I done wrong to be treated like this? In case of any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

I'm sorry, my email was public. I didn't know it, it was supposed to be private: stop spammers However, again, I have nothing to be ashamed of in my texts...

[Moma_porcupine]

The untranslated 2006 webpage from the web archive;

http://web.archive.org/web/20060719190915/http://www.taraka.pl/

Building a Sweat Lodge. Klub archeolog?w z Birmingham buduje sza?as potu taki, jakiego u?ywali Brytyjczycy z epoki br?zu.

earthw7

you don't have the right for a sweat lodge

Quote from: Laurel on Today at 04:23:36 am

Your site says twice that you run "Indian sweat lodges

."

epablito
This is translated form Polish name of what was doing there, to avoid confusion.

epablito

None of this is about sweatlodge, though.

epablito

What have I done wrong to be treated like this?

Should be obvious.

[epablito2]

The untranslated 2006 webpage from the web archive;

http://web.archive.org/web/20060719190915/http://www.taraka.pl/

Building a Sweat Lodge. Klub archeolog?w z Birmingham buduje sza?as potu taki, jakiego u?ywali Brytyjczycy z epoki br?zu.

"Klub archeolog?w z Birmingham buduje sza?as potu taki, jakiego u?ywali Brytyjczycy z epoki br?zu."

means:
"Archeologists from Birmingham build sweatlodge, same as British used in Bronze Era."

No fraud here. It's just information about British archeologists...

epablito

What have I done wrong to be treated like this?

Should be obvious.

[/quote]

No. It's not obvious. Please explain.

Sorry for a new nick. epablito2=epablito

[earthw7]

Inipi and sweat lodge is the same.
Many northern tribes use them but have different names
A person has not right to use them.
I have heard of the groups in Poland who are abusing
our ways.
You can delete all your post but it is still the same
you don't have the right to teach/build/run/sing/drum in
the lodges.

[earthw7]

Thank you for moving him to this site

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Why do you, Barnaby_McEwan, use my private information which I sent while registering to this forum?

It's my business as an administrator to know who is posting on this forum. You gave the impression that you had just been to one of Joswiak's "workshops". You are better acquainted than that but were dishonest about it. I think the people you were lecturing needed to know the facts.

You and Joswiak aren't the first to try bullshitting us in this way, and I'm sure you won't be the last. I deleted your epablito2 profile, and restored the original email address (which only administrators can see) to your epablito profile. Use that one in future.

[epablito]

You and Joswiak aren't the first to try bullshitting us in this way, and I'm sure you won't be the last.

I'm not trying to bullshit anynone. Yes, I've been, on Jozwiak's workshop (I've never said something else) and can assure you: there was no "native Indian ceremony" or native Indian ceremony fraud, even in strict terms of document I was presented.

Yes, we have in Poland some examples of "plastic shamans" and I'm strongly against this, and even against using word "shamanism", which corresponds in my understanding to spiritual leaders from Syberia.

Articles written by me do not contain any information about sweatlodge fraud or native Indian teachings. I have never and nowhere written articles about native Indian ceremonies.

I deleted your epablito2 profile, and restored the original email address (which only administrators can see) to your epablito profile. Use that one in future.

Thx.

The only thing that can be questionable here: IMHO everyone can make sweatlodge with fire and stones, as long as he/she doesn't claim it's native Indian ceremony. Sweatlodge purification is known in many cultures, e.g. Celtic, Turkish, Japanese, Russian, Finnish and most likely you know this. It's not only hygienic, however, spiritual part of i.e. celtic swetlodge is lost. Using hot stones from campfire and building a sweatlodge outdoor with sticks and a sheet of thick fabric is today known thanks to native Indian sweatlodge. IMHO using this technique is not forbidden, but of course, I can be wrong.

And this is the point to start discussion.
I hope you are ok. Best regards.

[Moma_porcupine]

(Quoting from what Barnaby found on your webpage)

http://www.taraka.pl/index.php?id=sofar.htm

June 1999...we completed all the activities that became a standard for the subsequent workshops: shamanic journeys with the drum, breathing, voice and visualization exercises, intestinal cleansing, Indian sweat lodge...

summer solstice 2000...Activities: intestinal cleansing, drum journeys, drum playing, Indian sweat lodge and fire walking, and a few of us did also carried out burial in the earth. The workshop was strictly of an open-air character, without shelter in buildings. For the first time I had a teepee...

epablito

Klub archeolog?w z Birmingham buduje sza?as potu taki, jakiego u?ywali Brytyjczycy z epoki br?zu."

means:
"Archeologists from Birmingham build sweatlodge, same as British used in Bronze Era."

(from the 2006 web page)


That must be a popular presentation. I can imagine many European people would be very desirous to learn "Indian Sweat Lodge" is their own tradition and no Indians have any right to protect these Indian Sweat lodge traditions as belonging to Indians. I had no idea there was Indians in Bronze age England! This is very facinating!!!!

What is the name of this British archeologist? I'd like to know where exactly
they got the information on what type of sweatlodge, the British used in Bronze Era.

(with sources sited for this information which can be verified as profesional and recognized in the archeological community )

epablito

No fraud here. It's just information about British archeologists...

How can that explaination possibly fit with the earlier "Indian Sweat Lodges" Barnaby found on your current webpage?

Of course we all understand that for some people even up can be said to be down, because thats true for people in Australia.....

[epablito]

Moma_porcupine:

That must be a popular presentation. I can imagine many European people would be very desirous to learn "Indian Sweat Lodge" is their own tradition and no Indians have any right to protect these Indian Sweat lodge traditions as belonging to Indians. I had no idea there was Indians in Bronze age England! This is very facinating!!!!

I think you are desperately trying to prove that I am some kind of a leader of European fraud front. I'm not.

Noone claims that  "Indian Sweat Lodge" is european tradition! Sweat lodge, a purification ritual, is a part of European tradition (and not only European). But not Indian Sweat Lodge! However, the spiritual part of European sweat lodges is lost in time (i.e. modern ones are purely hygenic). So, to discover spiritual part of european sweat lodge some people think is good to use outdoor technique which is used by native Indian and probably was used (in similiar form) by people around the world at some point in time. That doesn't mean "let's take their Sweat Lodge". It means "learn from native Indian tradition to find our tradition". And this worked! People gather around fire and sing our old songs using our old vocal techniques. People use frame drums not because YOU use them, but because Polish village people used frame drums for last few hundred years. And so on, and so on... There's nothing about "plastic shamans" in this. There are some examples of "plastic Indian shamanism" and THAT IS WHAT Jozwiak's been trying to verify (if someone can claim he's a native Indian tradion teacher, which seemed ridiculous).

So if you find "Indian sweat lodge" somewhere it should be treated in this case as "native Indian type sweatlodge" rather than "native Indian Sweat Lodge" or Inipi. Nobody wants to steal your spirituality, what for?

What is the name of this British archeologist? I'd like to know where exactly
they got the information on what type of sweatlodge, the British used in Bronze Era.

I'll try to provide some links to european/celtic sweat lodge re-creation.

How can that explaination possibly fit with the earlier "Indian Sweat Lodges" Barnaby found on your current webpage?

It is NOT my webpage. I've just sent a few texts there, not about native Indian tradition.