Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY

[JosephSWM]

I just received a most detailed letter from Dr. Richard Allen concerning the Nuyagi Keetoowah and the Sand Hill Indian webiste. I asked his permission to post it here and he said yes. Much of what was in  the first paragraphs was already stated by Mr. Kirk but I did include Dr. Allen’s first paragraph about the NKS. The rest of what is posted here concerns the Cherokee in New Jersey. In the second paragraph here he is referring to this website I sent him.

www.sandhillindians.net/info.htm

-------------------------

Hello Joseph:

We are familiar with this fraudulent group—one of more than 200 with which we are familiar through our own research, the research of certain colleagues regarding these fraudulent groups or through inquiries such as yours. The so-called Nuyagi Keetoowah Society has no relationship with any of the legitimate Cherokee entities as they suggest.  There is no relationship between this group and the Original Keetoowah Society and the Nighthawk Keetoowah Society who exist only within the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma.  It would be unthinkable for these spiritual entities to be removed from their original grounds.  Anyone associated with the Original Keetoowah Society and the Nighthawk Keetoowah Society would find it unreasonable to consider diluting the Cherokee culture and spiritual essence of their religion by establishing a branch of their society so far away from Cherokee country.


I note that the web site claims: “The Indian community in Monmouth county New Jersey pre-dates the revolutionary war…The Cherokee community of New Jersey has always, and continues today, to be indicative of transplanted Cherokee people…In 1841, Principal Chief John Ross established a clear presence of substantial Cherokee community in New Jersey through his correspondence and other documentation.  


In actuality, members of the Ross family (John Ross’ nieces and nephews and his son) attended school at the Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey in the latter 1830s and early 1840s.  Many of whom, Principal Chief Ross communicated with through personal correspondence and visits.


Daniel Ross Hicks (son of John Golden and Elizabeth Ross—John Ross’ sister and brother-in-law) attended Lawrenceville from 1840-42 and delivered valedictory address at Lawrenceville, 1842.  Eliza Jane Ross (daughter of John Golden and Elizabeth Ross) attended Moravian Female Academy, Bethleham, Pennsylvania, in 1840s.  George Washington Ross (son of John Ross and Elizabeth [Quatie] Brown Henley Ross) attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey, 1840-42;


(continued)

[JosephSWM]

John Ross, Jr. (son of Ross and Mary Brian Stapler Ross) attended an academy at Nazareth, Pennsylvania, and Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey, 1862-64;  John McDonald Ross (son of Lewis and Fannie Holt Ross) attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey, 1837-38 and was valedictorian in 1838 and may have attended Princeton University;  Robert Daniel Ross (son of Lewis and Fannie Holt Ross) attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey, 1838-40;  Silas Dinsmore Ross (son of John Ross and Mary Brian Stapler Ross) attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey, 1840-42;  William Potter Ross (son of John Golden and Elizabeth Ross—John Ross’ sister and brother-in-law) attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey, 1838-39.

So, several younger members of the Ross family attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey in the latter 1830s and early 1840s.  Attendance at a school does not constitute “a clear presence of substantial Cherokee community in New Jersey??? as claimed by the so-called Nuyagi group.

This group also suggests that visits by representatives of the Cherokee people constitute migrations.  Cherokees and other tribal leaders were likely to call on one another to visit or to pay respects to those who have passed on as they do now.  This does not constitute a migration.  The group uses whatever it can to try to validate itself as a Cherokee tribal community—it is not.

I believe that both the Cherokee and Muscogee (Creek) people “Indianized??? New York as Nuyagi—it does not mean “place of rocks.  There is only one recognized Delaware Tribe in Oklahoma and they reside at Anadarko, Oklahoma among several plains tribes.  There was a contingent of Delaware who came into the Cherokee Nation in 1867 and agreed to become Cherokee tribal members.

I believe that Wyman Kirk has already addressed the Keetoowah issue completely and with more information and comprehension than I could provide.

Dr. Richard L. Allen
Policy Analyst
Cherokee Nation

http://www.nj.com/newhomes/communities/index.ssf?/realestate/newhomes/lawrencetownship.html

The school was founded in 1810 as the Maidenhead Academy and run under such names as Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School for some 70 years. It wasn't until 1883 that it was "refounded" and became known as The Lawrenceville School. Today, the school is a national historic landmark.

--------------------------

In a follow up letter in which Dr. Allen said I could post the letter he wrote:

You may post but I neglected to indicate that my source for determining that the younger Ross students attending Lawrenceville came from The Papers of Chief John Ross, Vol. I, G. E. Moulton, Editor, University of Oklahoma Press, 1985.  So, I would ask that you include that as my source.  Also provide me a link to your site or to the site to which you are posting.

[VHawkins]

Thanks Joe.

vance

[JosephSWM]

Vance,

I heard back from Cherokee friend who go up with me on 6/25. He wishes to remain anonymous. It is his understanding that there are now two real factions of the Nuyagi Keetoowah. Ray Harnell being the head of the one in NY city and DMW along with Sam Beeler head up the other faction in Pomona, NY.

Joe

[DIGOWELI]

Osiyo,

My name is Ray Evans Harrell and I am from the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society, Inc.    I have posted on the Introductions part of this web site and if you have other questions I would suggest that you ask them of me and not of people who I know and don't respect or who have never met me but make judgements based upon mirrors of their own  minds.  The simplest act of respect is to talk to a person rather than about that person.  

I called the High School Counselor Dr. Richard Allen and he did not convince me that he was equipped to make the judgements he made.   There are many Cherokee communities in Oklahoma and they are varied.   Sterotypical statements are what drive the children away since they don't care to live "out of time."  

We suggest an alternative that allows people who leave home to still practice their faith.   People are in all levels of self-understanding and many who went to schools on Indian land had all languages deemed :"foreign" forbidden to them.   That tendency is still being driven by a Cherokee member of the Oklahoma legislature from Comanche with her "English only" bills.   Some, including Dr. Allen, did not have the advantage of having their language and some were not in jail or collaborating with the government and taking roll numbers.  

This complex situation demands that you understand completely since you have appointed yourselves judges.   Does that not mean that you should at least conduct a "discovery phase" including witnesses before you hold a trial?

I am very busy as I am not a professional Indian but earn my living in the world and practice my religion privately.   It is not only a faith but a religion because it brings people like myself, who are away from home and family, together to worship in the present in the traditions of our Cherokee families.    That has nothing to do with casinos or government land or funds.   We made another choice four generations ago and we still are.

Thank you for your attention and I am at your service,

Ray Evans Harrell

[Vance Hawkins]

Howdy Ray,

Thank you for your reply. I agree to a degree -- people ought to hash out their differences in person. But with so many people making wild claims on the internet, this is hard to do. I alternately say yall had ought to have talked to Oklahoma Keetoowah before claiming that yall had their support. It is obvious to anyone that you don't have their support and I suggest yall quit advertisin that you do.

You say you -- "called the High School Counselor Dr. Richard Allen . . ."  son, that is a childish attitude. Can you just address the issues? Thanks. I'll listen to your answers.

i.] Yalls website mentions a funeral for a Delaware Chief and say many Cherokee came up there for the funeral and stayes. Can you provide documentation for this claim? If you'll read the posts here, you'll see that Delaware Chief died in Ohio and was buried there. Can you show equally valid proof that Delaware chief died in New Jersey? Can you provide evidence any Cherokee moved up there at that time?

ii.] Why haven't yall ever contacted the Oklahoma Cherokee letting them know yall are in New Jersey with your "proof"?

As for the comment about "mirrors in their own minds" I'll assure you I am objective and in making that comment, am I seein' just the shinin' glimmer of a mirror? Well, I can understand yuo bein defensive . . .

iii.] you said -- There are many Cherokee communities in Oklahoma and they are varied.   Sterotypical statements are what drive the children away since they don't care to live "out of time."  

Well I live in Oklahoma as have my ancestors since about 1828 (I have proof, with a coupe of periods missing, one in Ark and another in Tx). In the physical universe where we live -- it is physically impossible to live "outside of time". Can you elaborate?

iv.] you said -- We suggest an alternative that allows people who leave home to still practice their faith.

reply -- no one opposes that. Your website claimed yall had the blessings so to speak of the "revered" Keetoowah Society (as yall put it) of Oklahoma (paraphrasing) and yall obviously don't. Can you explain?

v.] you said -- That tendency is still being driven by a Cherokee member of the Oklahoma legislature from Comanche with her "English only" bills.

Ray, the last time my direct ancestors came back to Indian Territory in the late 1880s they lived near what became Duncan (Duncan was just an empty spot on the map when they moved there) in the Chickasaw Nation. My grandparents were married at Loco, Chickasaw Nation in 1904, 3 years before sattehood. It wasn't 10 miles from the little town of Comanche, which was on the border of the Chickasaw Nation and the Comanche Tribe. I can drive there in maybe 75 or 90 minutes -- I have been there and know the little town. Who are you talking about that is in the Ok Legislature? Can you give me some details.

vi.] you said -- Some, including Dr. Allen, did not have the advantage of having their language and some were not in jail or collaborating with the government and taking roll numbers.    


reply -- I can't get a handle on what you are trying to say. Which language? what jail? You are talking about something that you have obviously left out. Please elaborate.

vii.] you said --This complex situation demands that you understand completely since you have appointed yourselves judges.   Does that not mean that you should at least conduct a "discovery phase" including witnesses before you hold a trial?

reply -- someone placed faulty information online, ie -- yall are accepted by the Oklahoma Keetoowah Society (paraphrasing) and that is why yall came up here, I am pretty sure. When you make claims online you might not realize that some people who know of the REAL Keetoowah might be lisnin . . . In teh big city, in NY and NJ where there are no or few Cherokee, you are far removed and think it is save to talk about a few thousand people isolated in small towns and farms of rural NE Oklahoma, and you can claim to be some of them. Who will ever know?

I too am worried about accusing innoscent people, and this was put here is "research needed" and not immediately on the "fraud" site.

viii.] You say you are Cherokee. Who are your Cherokee ancestors? Can you prove it or are you claiming it? I trace my ancestors to Brown and Guess (great great grandparents were David B Brown 1822-1865 and Hariet Guess 1818-1886) and no we are not enrolled either, and no, we can not prove they are Cherokee, but he have collected a lot of evidence. Also have evidence of Monacan/Saponi. I'd like to know somehting about the person I am talking to.

vance

[Vance Hawkins]

howdy Ray,

I just read your introduction, and that brought up a couple of more questions.

viii.] Are you saying that those stomp grounds were given to the Cheroke people for the use of Indian people in the New York area? Whose name is on the title for the the land? Who ever's name is on it, that's who owns it. How is the U. N. involved in this and why doesn't the Cherokee Nation know that this has been given to them, if indeed it has?

viii.] From reading the websites it seems DMW is claiming he is in control of your group. Are yall jointly in control?

ix.] Also in your introduction it said you were from Oklahoma. What part? I was born in Okmulgee, have cousins in McAlister (not the prison!), Lone Wolf, Lawton, Frederick, a sister in Tulsa, Ft Smith, and I could go on and on -- name a town and I have probably had a relative that lived close by at one time.

x.] Lastly, If you have been to Stomps in Oklahoma, why don't the stomp grounds in Oklahoma recognize you? It bothers me that you called yourself a "high priest" was it? I find it hard to believeyou are properly trained without having been properly trained, in the manner Dr Allen suggested.  You say you took over that role in 1988? Have these grounds been in existence since before that time?

I believe your organization is not recognized by anyone in Oklahoma and that yall should not attempt to gain credibility in New York by claiming you had the blessings of Oklahoma Keetoowah. That and you claimin to be a "high priest" -- those are my main gripes with yall.

This is America and anyone is free to be a self-appointed "guru" I suppose, if they are of that mindset, but you shouldn't claim any affiliation with any well known Keetoowah Society if you don't have any affiliation with them.

I don't think that's ethical. Wha-d'ya think?

vance

[educatedindian]

Mr. Harrell,
I'm Al Carroll, one of the co founders of NAFPS. I'll try to address some things you raised both here and when you introduced yourself. First, I'm glad you came here so we can (hopefully) clear this up if possible. And for the most part you are being more polite than some we've had come here in the past.

I've known Vance and Joseph online for some time, and I don't see any sign they are being malicious or careless. On the contrary, they posted the inquiry about your group under Research Needed for good reason. Notice that it is one of the longer threads. They discussed back and forth for quite some time, nearly a month, before drawing any conclusions. And that was only after a series of emails with the CNO and others.

There's a lot of things the CNO govt can rightfully be criticized for, but having people who don't know anything about the traditions isn't one of them. Neither is having bad intentions when it comes to protecting those traditions. Dr. Richard Allen has been incredibly helpful to both us at NAFPS and many others concerned about spiritual exploitation and misrepresentation.

The Cherokee are afflicted with more shame-on imposters posing as medicine people as well as more people with distant or lost connections to their traditions than perhaps any other nation. Wanting to be part of those traditions is not surprising and is certainly commendable. But that desire should not excuse ethical breaches. And it should not excuse Nuage ideas leaching into traditional beliefs, ie goofy Nuage phrases like "living out of time" or "mirrors of their own minds".
And on a side note, do you realize most of your opera co website is down?

[DIGOWELI]

Osiyo Vance,

I'm going to leave this on the list in the service of transperancy.   Normally I would answer personal questions personally.   I'm aware of the problem of the internet because the quotes of my posts to the economist's Futurework List are now a part of the internet search engine mythology.    

I went to bed last night and surprisingly when I got up this morning it had snowed and I can't get that white out of my hair.   I have to go the VA and see if they can do anything about it but I suspect it's just there and I will have to accept it.  

I appreciate your letter and spirit and will answer it in parts as I must teach, rehearse students for auditions and (seriously) go to the VA today.  

Just read your more aggressive second letter and the webmaster's as well.   If you google my name you will see a lot of what I do.  Yes the website is incomplete because we are opening a new Blog that will be interactive in American Arts and are slowly reconsidering our considerable monthly expense for this one.  

You would also find an entry on google for my late father who was the first Doctor's degree counselor at College High in Bartlesville and facilitated that work with minorities and upgraded the program in the 1960s and 70s.   So calling Allen a High School counselor is what he said to me and a degree in psychometrics or counseling is not a bad thing but a good thing.   I could not, however, imagine the attitude of “judgment of people you don't know??? as being a scholarly one.   Chief Ross of the UKB called here years ago and questioned us and we were open and told him who we were and there was no issue.   There is a difference in Indian Country between a question and a challenge.     We also sent our scholar's newsletter several year's ago to the CNO and Charlie Soap and had several conversations with him as a friendly hello but Oklahoma's business is their own as is ours.   They don't need us mucking around in it and having "opinions" about them.   I got that in Oklahoma myself.  

You may even know my Creek relatives from Okmulgee and I know that the CNO has had dealings with my relatives in Muskogee.  I tried in the Bird administration to make peace with them but that administration was too uppity to consider doing such a thing.   Now the average Cherokee is paying for it.    I will check with the relatives and connect you off list if they agree but let me just say that the politics of government involvement is not unfamiliar to me.   I was born in Ada and grew up in Picher and my father was the School Superintendent who had to deal with the government for the schools and Johnson O'Malley.

As for nuage.   I would suggest that speaking metaphorically is not the sole property of the children of Fritz Perls.    They learned it from Indian people and traditional Ojibwa people in Canada at that.  

Must go now but will answer all of the questions as my time permits.  

oneh dodada gohv'i

Ray Evans Harrell  

[JosephSWM]

Hello Ray,

I to am busy but for now have only one question for  you, a simple one, I think. Where does David Michael Wolfe fit into all of this?

Joseph

[DIGOWELI]

Osiyo Joseph,

He doesn't.  

We don't mention his name because he was disgraced in his relationship with our Founder and my adopted Father who took him into his home as an apprentice.    Whatever he did, it was bad enough to be shunned and considered dead by my Father.     That was all before 1983.

We abide by that ceremonial that was done long ago.   As far as we are concerned, that's all there is.

The person you asked about doesn't exist as far as the Nuyagi Keetoowah Societies and Grand Council is concerned.    Maybe he's a ghost.  

Our council has written a letter stating that we are the only Nuyagi Keetoowah Societies, Inc and we have the Stomp Ground passed to us by the Indian League of the Americas when they disbanded.   (That is probably the root of the "Mohawk" story since their President was Mohawk, but the Indian League was started by a Cherokee and had every tribe represented.  Our Founder was once a member of the Indian League as well.)

We mean no ill will and everyone has to listen to their own vision given by the Creator and walk their path but this is ours and we keep a very close watch on it both spiritually and legally.  

Donada Gohv'i

Ray Evans Harrell

[DIGOWELI]

Osiyo,

Here is the second installment for Vance.    REH

Vance:
Thank you for your reply. I agree to a degree—people ought to hash out their differences in person. But with so many people making wild claims on the internet, this is hard to do.

REH
I have never made claims nor has the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society or their brother Societies as incorporated as a traditional religious community in NYState and as certified by the IRS as same.   That means we are afforded the same rights as any religious institution in America, no more nor less.

Vance
I alternately say yall had ought to have talked to Oklahoma Keetoowah before claiming that yall had their support. It is obvious to anyone that you don’t have their support and I suggest yall quit advertisin that you do.

REH
See above.   We don’t convert, proscelytize or advertise anything except notifying people who are our community and our neighbors about our schedule.   We consider that the Creator sends to us who is supposed to be there and accept that as a rule.   To change, convert or persuade is to interfere with the Creator’s path for each person.   We share but we do not interfere.   If it is not right for a person to be with us, they are usually too uncomfortable to stay.   If it is then we are doing what we are told to do.  No more, no less.

Vance:
You say you—“called the High School Counselor Dr. Richard Allen . . .  son, that is a childish attitude. Can you just address the issues? Thanks. I’ll listen to your answers.

REH:
I did mention my biological father and that snow in the hair in my earlier post.   I will just refer to that.

Vance:
i.] Yalls website mentions a funeral for a Delaware Chief and say many Cherokee came up there for the funeral and stayes. Can you provide documentation for this claim? If you’ll read the posts here, you’ll see that Delaware Chief died in Ohio and was buried there. Can you show equally valid proof that Delaware chief died in New Jersey? Can you provide evidence any Cherokee moved up there at that time?

REH:
As I said, that is not on our website nor in our history presented to the IRS for approval.   It's my understanding you didn't get onto our website since it is for our members only.    We have taken it down to make that even more secure and to make sure that it doesn't end up in anyone's search engine.   Today we send our material out by personal e-mail that is not searchable.    I don’t have a copy of what you are speaking of.   We are the only recognized, state approved and IRS registered Nuyagi Keetoowah Societies, Inc.   Anyone else is wishing.  

Vance:
ii.] Why haven’t yall ever contacted the Oklahoma Cherokee letting them know yall are in New Jersey with your “proof?

REH:
Just because someone in the CNO government doesn’t know us doesn’t mean that someone else there doesn’t.   This is the fourth Cherokee government I have known and each time, like the US government, they have to be retaught.   We did send our NKS Scholar’s Journal to the Mankiller government and as I said we had a friendly relationship with them.  

However, when Cherokee government officials and arts groups came to (and come to New York), they never bother to let us know they are coming nor to acknowledge our presence in any way.   I accept that they don't know anyone exists who isn't a part of the Dawes "collaborator's and criminal's"  rolls but there are about 8 million Indian people in America who are culturally NOT European and who don't care now to have anything to do with governments.  People to people is different but governments just take up time and eat up resources.  They also aren't very good at connectivity and their influence on Indian Arts has been disastrous.   That does not help us in dealing with the little piles of baby doo that is often left when someone comes to our hometown here and makes a "splash" and leaves.    I’m constantly bothered with writing to editors, etc. (like this site) and correcting mis-steps and mis-statements that have been made about native children and our worship here.   We too have families and have elected to give up the government relationship in favor of traditional government amongst ourselves.   We don't authenticate them nor do they us.   A little Atahuna would be good here.

To be continued for lack of space.

Ray Evans Harrell

[JosephSWM]

Hello again Ray,

I like to do the one question at a time. But before I get to my question I must preface it with a few personal comments.

I was taught, by mother, gandmother, grandfather, real and extended aunts and uncles and elders within my Clan that there is only one Sacred Fire. That this fire of my people has burned since the beginning and will continue forever. Part of this fire burns in North Carolina and part of it burns in Oklahoma now. This fire is the heart of my people, not to be hidden but shared by all Cherokee.

Then why did I find this site with your post? The most baffling of quotes is the date quote below.

http://www.mail-archive.com/futurework@scribe.uwaterloo.ca/msg03427.html

"* 1928: NUYAGI KEETOOWAH BEGINNINGS;   Sacred Fire secretly brought East to NJ.  6 year old future Nuyagi Keetoowah Founder designated future Keeper of Fire."

Why would part of the Sacred Fire be brought in secret? Why doesn't anyone else, meaning other Cherokee, know about this except your group? Logically speaking, if part of this fire was brought there (and there is no indication if it came from NC or OK) it seems like it was stolen. Thats just logic, why the secrecy.


Joseph

[DIGOWELI]

Osiyo Joseph,

I will answer your question with a question.   Why did all of those ceremonials that were meant for the day, have to be moved to the night?   Both the Stompdances and the Sundance in the Northern Plains?


You asked:
" Why would part of the Sacred Fire be brought in secret? Why doesn't anyone else, meaning other Cherokee, know about this except your group? Logically speaking, if part of this fire was brought there (and there is no indication if it came from NC or OK) it seems like it was stolen. Thats just logic, why the secrecy."



Are you aware of the "American Indian Religious Crimes Codes of 1883."     What was the purpose of those codes and how long were they in existence?      Religion connected to the ownership of the land and native prosperity.   I would recommend reading the Lake Mohunk reports of Henry Dawes.   Angie Debo's  "And Still the Waters Run" has a cogent quote from the report that sets the context for the anti-religion laws that were in existence until 1978.    And of course Ward Churchill the harassed one has written about it as well.

But my father taught me about it.   Our history is very important and it was suppressed in the schools and still is.   That is a lot of what the Ward Churchill stuff is about.    The issue should be what he says and not who he is.   The diversion is meant to diffuse the history but my father taught me to see past that.   My father was a graduate history  student of Edward Everett Dale at OU in the same class as Angie Debo.   I believe my Uncle Clay from Muskogee was as well.   I know the history was suppressed because I was taught in government programs.   Both the history and non-English languages were forbidden.   My family taught me the history.

Essentially Redbird Smith was harassed and thrown in jail for praying although they used other excuses.    That is why the current chief is a Cherokee.   Smith had the roll number forced on him in jail as with the common criminals as well.    Religious oppression in this area in the East was tremendous and so bad that my adopted Father created a "Temple of the Great Spirit" Church incorporated in Ohio, New Jersey, New York, Delaware, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Tennessee where native people could have their ceremonials traditionally and without police harassment.   He also started a Cherokee/Choctaw School for traditionals in Southern Ohio with the Overhill Band.

Word back here has it that traditional religion is under great pressure today in Oklahoma from the Christian churches.    Our people who have gone to Oklahoma have enjoyed the Cherokee Festival but we are not Christian here.   We are Keetoowah and it feels a little strange to hear all of those hymns.    This is our faith and religion.    We find the mix of European religion with Cherokee language and culture to be confused.   However, we do not judge since we cannot know the mind of the Creator on these issues.   We do not argue religion and we believe everyone is given a personal path and it is a part of their destiny that they discover what that is.    But we have heard that the traditional  Priests themselves have been under pressure to convert.   I would point out that we out here in Delaware and Iroquois country have just as many myths about Oklahoma as you do about us.   I would also add that the Cherokee presence here is documented through the state of New Jersey and the New Jersey museums where the records go back beyond the last century.   It was interesting the comments about John Ross that one of the CNO people made.   John Ross was well known in Trenton during the Civil War and his relatives wrote music for concerts performed before the New Jersey Attorney General.   I believe that is in the Ross papers that we have here in our library.   I'm an artist not a historian as my father was and Dr. Sam Beeler is.   He told me that the material about the Sand Hill was well documented and is available on their web site with ties to the Smithsonian as well.  

But if you just listen to me, this is all hearsay.  Why not do a little personal research for yourselves and stop talking to people so far away.   I am not Sand Hill although it is my understanding that the migration is mentioned in the local papers from that time.   Personally I trust the oral tradition around here much more than the papers which are often compromised by an agenda.   But it is not proper for me to speak for them so don't take my word for it.

Actually there are many manifestations of that original fire.   There is a fire in Southern Ohio, one here in the NY Metropolitan area,  one in Georgia, and I understand there are grounds in Alabama and elsewhere as well.   I would like to believe that there is still a fire in the area around that lake that covers Chota.

You know all grounds are individual and yet one.   The people who need to know, know us.   Those who don't, talk about it.

I mentioned the oppression on that Futurework economics list to prove to them that we have always been here and still are.   It seems that our own people need to learn that lesson as well.   I was on that list to teach people about Art and maybe a little about our people.   A lot of good has come from that list for people both here and in Canada.

I hope this program will not cut this off.  I will continue with Vance's questions.

Ray Evans Harrell

[DIGOWELI]

CONTINUED:
Vance continued:
As for the comment about “mirrors in their own minds??? I’ll assure you I am objective and in making that comment, am I seein’ just the shinin’ glimmer of a mirror? Well, I can understand yuo bein defensive . . .

REH:
As has been said so often  "One may think they understand what they heard or read but if they are to know what was meant they have to ask the author."    Or just poke a hole in the mirror.

Vance:
iii.] you said—There are many Cherokee communities in Oklahoma and they are varied.   Sterotypical statements are what drive the children away since they don’t care to live “out of time.  

Well I live in Oklahoma as have my ancestors since about 1828 (I have proof, with a coupe of periods missing, one in Ark and another in Tx). In the physical universe where we live—it is physically impossible to live “outside of time???. Can you elaborate?

REH:
"outside of time" refers to the serious expression of a people in the world, i.e. its culture and art.    All culture and art is site/time specific.   Old art teaches us about our ancestors and other cultures.   Contemporary Art is a pursuit of the values of the artist and culture in the present.   Being "outside of time" means that someone does not know themselves but is just imitating.    The first rule is "know yourself."

Vance:
iv.] you said—We suggest an alternative that allows people who leave home to still practice their faith.  

reply—no one opposes that. Your website claimed yall had the blessings so to speak of the “revered??? Keetoowah Society (as yall put it) of Oklahoma (paraphrasing) and yall obviously don’t. Can you explain?

REH:
You are confused.   Our website is closed.   Some of our members dance in Oklahoma and elsewhere and have friends there.   You may believe you know what they meant but you should ask them if that was what they said.   Being from Oklahoma I know better than to use someone else to validate myself.   They don't do that and neither do we.   Each ground is separate and we are not the only stompground to have the relationship with both State and IRS.   I know of at least one other.

Vance:
v.] you said—That tendency is still being driven by a Cherokee member of the Oklahoma legislature from Comanche with her “English only??? bills.

Ray, the last time my direct ancestors came back to Indian Territory in the late 1880s they lived near what became Duncan (Duncan was just an empty spot on the map when they moved there) in the Chickasaw Nation. My grandparents were married at Loco, Chickasaw Nation in 1904, 3 years before sattehood. It wasn’t 10 miles from the little town of Comanche, which was on the border of the Chickasaw Nation and the Comanche Tribe. I can drive there in maybe 75 or 90 minutes—I have been there and know the little town. Who are you talking about that is in the Ok Legislature? Can you give me some details.  

REH:  Last year I spoke with an Oklahoma Senator who was from Comanche who had proposed an English only statute in the State legislature.     Because I am in the Arts and encourage people to know many languages for living in the modern world, I called her and questioned her.   I mentioned Indian languages and she said that she was Cherokee and she still though English should be the official language.   Since you are from there.   Look her up.   I don't remember her name.

Vance:
vi.] you said—Some, including Dr. Allen, did not have the advantage of having their language and some were not in jail or collaborating with the government and taking roll numbers.    

reply—I can’t get a handle on what you are trying to say. Which language? what jail? You are talking about something that you have obviously left out. Please elaborate.

REH:
Study the history of the Keetoowahs or just study the great Willard Stone family.   They were not government collaborators in the death of the nation and they were not in jail to be given roll numbers.   Now that is harsh but no more harsh that the "official" government's harassment of Cherokee groups around the country through their officers like Kirk and Allen.    There are many serious traditional and learning Cherokee people out here beyond the limits of government connections.   It may very well be time for a new Four Mother's Society that goes to the Four Directions and gathers the dis-enfranchised Indian People into some sort of entity not unlike what Smith and others had at the turn of the last century.    It's a great history filled with genuine heroes.   It doesn't only belong to the authorized but to all Cherokee people.  

Continue for one more: REH