The question about who said Twinkie City and who attacked first

[BrownNosed]

You said you never called RNS "A TWINKIE CITY" or attacked ravencrow. She posted in his group topic knowing it was him. You come in and announce you are very close and a personal friend of his. I think when you got the e-mail from her after you already said what you did you tried to smooth it out. Here is the original post by her in his topic. Tell me you were not attacking her. Now you post her IP and the name you think is hers. You are putting an innocent person in danger by posting her name and not Raven Crows.

You are really messed up and no one is trying to sensor you but since 911 and all this identity thefts going on the laws and people are not tolerating it.

[Barnaby's note: pointless reposting removed, user banned for ignoring a warning against continuing this childishness. Perhaps incidentally, this user has posted from an IP belonging to a cable company in Massillon, Ohio, home of the fantasist Eric Macuski aka Red Hawk.]

[Moma_porcupine]

If you do a Google search on Raven crow and the Red Nation Society you can find a Red Nation Society webpage of a person identified as raven crow or knightcrowwatching,

MySpace.com - RedNationSociety - 27 - Female - From CA to NC ...
Running RNS Myspace is: Raven Crow aka knightcrowwatching It is our hope that Red Nation Society became a welcoming home for those who were like us. ...
profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=174714450 - 188k - Cached - Similar pages

I could then show folks how if they do a search on knightcrowwatching a page comes up describing someone who matches the description of raven crow AKA Knightcrowwatching and gives this persons real name.

ArtWanted.com |(name removed)| Artwork Portfolio
(name removed). E-mail Artist. Visit Official Website. Add to 'Art Watch'. Promote This Artist NEW! View / Subscribe NEW! ...
www.artwanted.com/knightcrowwatching - 13k - Cached - Similar pages[

People who put their personal information on line shouldn't complain and play the victim when people notice the connections. Some people really need to grow up or arrange adult supervision for themselves if they want to be on line.
-------
edited because this persons real name has been removed from their Artwork portfolio and no longer comes up in a google search

[TRIBALMOONS@yahoo.com]

That is what is called........."Pissin' on our legs and telling us it's raining."

Mama I agree with you...If you don't want your business all over the world wide web, then post NOTHING about yourself.

[frederica]

What I seen in the last couple of days they do a lot of commerical business on the internet.

[LittleOldMan]

I have a question please.  The sites such as you are mentioning.   Are the people putting them up trying to make money in some way from advertising, self aggrandisement, or what.  I agree with admin.  I also want to commend them for the close watch that they put on this site.  This is to good a place to acquire correct information for it to descend to the level of Indianz or its like. Again thanks  as always I am "LittleOldMan"

[Moma_porcupine]

I can see none of this makes any sense to someone who hasn't been following all the threads the last couple days.

If people have some reason to want to know the history of what preceded this thread, and why these people came here, the link below to Ravencrows introduction will show the history;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1592.0;all

I guess Brownnosed is a friend of Ravencrow, who ended their registeration a day or so ago. It seems they both came here to pick fights. They weren't posted here for self aggrandizment or making money ...

Nobody here started any of these threads .

[LittleOldMan]

Mama Porcupine:  I tried to reply last night but I hit the wrong key and lost it.  Anyway if I may I would like to offer a comment or two.  When I first read the post referred to I was fighting an abscessed tooth on lorotab and was not really with it.  Thank you for pointing me back to it.  When I reread it again I picked up on the tone  and it seemed to me to be an incendiary one.  I am a fan of the way the administrator controls this site.  He is an active participant not like in other places where the moderator is nowhere to be found most of the time.  This is a new person from whom we have no history.  We are always going to be skeptical of anything that they post until a relationship can be built.  This poster came in full bore assuming that we would listen with the same attention and respect that we give Earth7 for example.  This will not be ever the case the new poster must earn this and that takes time and experience.  Every true Native American who was raised within their culture is taught respect from the cradle up.  We are also taught that when addressing a group of people who we do not know that we must assume that within that group the are a certain number of traditional Elders. Never but never ever should one show disrespect to an Elder.  It is just not done.  When arguing your point the language that you use is all important.  Wise use of which can put your points over much more effectively than a wild harangue.    Comment two.  Some mention was made of the selling of smudge or prayer kits?  Over many years now I have observed that sage and sweet grass  are sold by vendors at the powwows.  Two questions 1. how would some obtain the material if they did not purchase it.  2.  Why are people to whom smudging with sage is not traditional adopting it rather than what the traditions of their tribe dictate?  Why would a Cherokee adopt a Lakota pipe and a plains smudge when the are not traditional to him?  Comments are offered with all due respect thank you for your attention as always I am called "LittleOldMan"

[Defend the Sacred]

We are always going to be skeptical of anything that they post until a relationship can be built.

This is very important.

Most of the people who spend a lot of time on the Internet don't get this. And I think most white Americans don't, either. White Americans are very into the cult of youth, and so many of them expect they can talk out their asses and be believed, and even among complete strangers online they expect instant intimacy and acceptance or you're a "hater". It really is a cultural degradation, as generations back, few of our ancestors would have behaved so appallingly. Well, at least those who were not cultural outcasts or racists. The issue of entrenched racism, and the disrespect that causes, can't be left out of the equation.

It took me a bit of getting used to when I first joined here, but I am now very appreciative of this approach, and it's taught me to have a more healthy skepticism when dealing with people on the Internet. Most of the people on the social networking sites who instantly enthuse about how much they love each other... have never met each other. They don't really know each other on anything but the most superficial level, and what they do know is based on self-reporting and constructed public personas. Those types of interactions are almost entirely based on fantasy.

Two questions 1. how would some obtain the material if they did not purchase it.  2.  Why are people to whom smudging with sage is not traditional adopting it rather than what the traditions of their tribe dictate?

1. I think that for those who live on the land and can grow the herbs, or who have family or friends who do, it's not an issue. I guess it becomes an issue when people are living in more urban environments.

2. I think it's back to the issue of people feeling rootless, of people who have no surviving traditions, or people in ther family/community to help them know better. The smudging with sage thing seems to me to have come into the Nuage groups via Sunbear's Medicine Wheel Gatherings in the 1980s, where  smudging with sage was done by everyone, before every ceremony, even before talks. It was presented as a "universal" practice, so the Nuagers who wanted to either play NDN, or feel like they were doing something "traditional", appropriated it.

[Moma_porcupine]

I also appreciate the moderators here and what they do. I would imagine it'is not an easy job, encouraging dialog but not letting things get completely derailed. 

I like to think we all try to be objective and fair enough to listen to whatever concerns people have ,  no matter who it is, or what peoples reputations are. If anyone on this message board acted like Ravencrow or Brownnosed did ,  I would respond in the same way.

The extremely bitter accusations these two people made just didn't make any sense, right up to this last accusation against Tsisqua endangering people by revealing their identity.

You ask some good questions about sage and sweetgrass, ( I really like the second one ) and Kathryn probably says it much more briefly than I would . ( believe me this is a good thing )  If I get into that in this thread I might get myself banned... I think I have already filled up the better part  of two threads and worn out a few keyboards debating this.... ( or the worser part depending on your opinion in the matter)

Below is links to the two threads where this came up before;

Sale of sweetgrass and sage
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=580.0;all

Who owns Native culture.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=412.0;all

If you read through them and still feel there is some stuff that should be explored further  maybe it would be better to post a reply in one of those threads instead of here?

No doubt I could be easily provoked to say more on the subject...

[LittleOldMan]

Thanks both of you I'll be back on this after I have researched it further. "LOM"

[LittleOldMan]

I took a little time to skim over both the previous threads.  After awhile all the verbage gets to flow together somewhat.  Barnaby it is not my intent to hijack this thread if what I post does not belong let me know.  It may be that you believe that it need to be moved if so no problem I am not well versed in that kind of thing your decision.  The Creator made many many tribes and to each he gave their own culture ,medicine , and traditions.  Why I have no idea twas his wish to do so.  I do feel that the trend toward panindianism is wrong in that it goes against what Creator set up to begin with.  I very strongly support the concept that culture should be held as pure and traditional.  That is what is Cherokee should be held as pure from outside corruption as possible.  In other words  a Cherokee has no business doing a Lakota Pipe ceremony or sweat.  Neither does a lakota have any business going to water or at a traditional stomp.  Yes, you could say I am some what of a purest.  That is not to say that if I found myself at a Lokota Ceremony I could not join my prayers with them.  I very much could and would but not at their alter or inside the circle but as a Cherokee my prayer would join theirs.  Air is not a barrier to the Creator His ear hears all does it not.  Does a Baptist take communion from a Catholic Priest NOT. As to Medicine the plant is only a part of it, if it is not correctly prepared and used in the right way(ceremony) it is at best useless and at worst dangerous.  On occasion I carve pipes.  I use traditional materials that my ancestors used,steatite and soapstone.   Because of my friendship with some Lakota I will not carve Catlinite.  It is sacred to them and it is not my place to offend them.  Nuff said.  When I see the ignorant buying sweet grass or sage at a powwow  it's kind of funny it will not help them in their in their ceremony it has no power in itself.   "LOM"

[frederica]

I think that is right LOM, I don't believe any medicine,  or ceremony has any power outsiide it's own territory. That's why the real Medicine People don't leave their ground and don't have to adveriize.

[earthw7]

This post ended in a good light, thank you LOM, frederica, and Moma

[Freija]

Sorry, Earth, don´t mean to start something up again.
But since the question has been up for discussion over here, it would be interesting to hear your views on this;

If a Native gives, let´s say, sweetgrass to a non-Native is it OK to burn this (which is, obviously, the purpose) or should you politely say "no thanks" ? Or take it but not use it? You tend to get a lot of herbs given to you as a non. And I guess most of us do not want to be impolite, so  we just say "thank you!"

 

[earthw7]

while that is a good question.
it depend on why they are using it??

each of the medicines we use have a reason
and story behind it.
we don't just burn these because we want to

I have seen the abuse of sage and sweetgrass over
the years. I believe that medicine is for the people
but it is how you use it.