Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash

[Spaewife]

maybe there is another thread and I mis searched, but..

Who is this dude?

http://www.torah-voice.org/Utah%20meetings%20release.htm

http://www.torah-voice.org/Native%20Joes%20and%20LDS%20Church.htm

Not sure if this is the same group or not.   http://www.turtletribe.org/

[frederica]

Well I see William Scott Anderson aka Blue Otter. http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=137.msg466#466

[Spaewife]

ok that explains one of them..

This link puts someone else into the mix with the aztlan and otter and etc. I don't know if these are all seperate or part of the same under aliases


http://www.rootsvt.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=88&Itemid=78

[frederica]

Here is the SunDance site. http://www.turtletribe.org/Aztlan%20sundance.htm  TenRivers if you look at his site, it look like that Lost Tribe group, and Lost Book of Mormons. I see the Mormons have donated money for the SunDance. Now the Aztlan Native American Cultural Art Center is another thing. Thomas Eagle Bear Shash and some from the Center tour as performers doing "Fire Dances".  I believe I've seen them at a Pow Wow a few years ago. Some of them claim to be decendents of the Mimbreno Apache which I doubt are still around, but their performances look very Aztec. I don't know how they are mixed up with the other two. The ones I met seem like decent people, so I hope they don't get burned.

[Spaewife]

ok see this is where I am confused too.  the torah site has the Aztlan site to be donated to, and the 'blue otter' person is connected some how through it all.
I'm trying to figure out if they are legit or frauds. 

something just isn't  making sense to me. 

[educatedindian]

As tempting as it might be to endorse a page saying George Bush is the Devil, or at least a demon from the Book of Revelations....

This Torah Voice page is so bizarre, a mix of End Times and Mormonism and Christian Zionism and...plus Wm Anderson and his fake claims about Hopis.

The real Mimbrenos were forced onto Ft Sill rez. Some also went to the Mescalero rez. This "Membreno Apache of Southern Colorado" are pretty out there.

http://63.247.196.50/Aztlan%20the%20Homeland.htm
"AZTLAN:
Homeland of the Chicano (Red People)"

Most Chicano activists use the term Brown People.

"The plane circling the mass rally in support of immigration reform near Fort Worth, Texas, clearly had the word "AZTLAN" painted on the wings.  That night I tuned in the Spanish TV stations here in Southern Colorado. I understood very little, but noted the word "AZTLAN," was quoted by several of the
Chicano who were interviewed. Curiously, just a few weeks earlier, Ten Rivers had named me to the board of directors of Iglesia de Aztlan (the assembling of Aztlan) as an ex-officio advisor.

Chartered 10 years earlier by Ten Rivers and his small band of Membreno Apache, Iglesia de Aztlan already had repurchased about 80 acres of ceremonial lands in the mountains near Gardner, Colorado. Here they have resumed their sweats and sundances which have accommodated the spiritual vortex for this return of the Chicano."

Yeah, but...Sundances aren't Apache. And Apache sweats are a bit different.

"As the last stewards -- or as Ten Rivers puts it, "the last to surrender," the sacred Four Corners region of southern Colorado and Utah and northern New Mexico and Arizona, the Membreno Apache were the logical choice to steward the vision of the return to Aztlan."

The Four Corners are Dine territory.

"Ten Rivers' ancestors have lived continuously in this region since it was encountered by Ponce de Leon, the Spanish explorer, who his own ancestors served."

Uh, de Leon was way over in Florida and the southeast.

"But there was something familiar about Ten Rivers' description of the lands stewarded by this once fiercest of Apache tribes who were punished by being given no reservation lands and insulted because they have had to buy back the ceremonial and burial grounds that were stolen after their buffalo were decimated with no regard for their souls or their importance.   The "Four Corners" he described as Aztlan also figured in the past and future prophecies of the Hopi and in the beliefs of the Aztecs."

Yeah, well, lots of evidence say Aztlan was more likely in Sinaloa or Sonora in Mexico.

"The Hopi prophesies and migrations establish ownership ... but only in the Last Days ... for the descendants of the returning Hopi clans. Those clans are today united by the label Chicano, the Red People, whose return to Aztlan has been awaited longer than the U.S. has existed."

Hopi prophecies being united by Chicanos?

"Consequently America's leaders now have a dilemma not unlike the scenario they have provoked in Judea-Samaria. Chicano nationalism now shows every sign of becoming an independent entity in America's West Bank.  Connect this very real demographic foretold by Hopi sages with other Hopi prophecy and it would appear that the days of Anglo-America are numbered.
Maggid ben Yoseif"

Not really. Aztlanistas are a tiny tiny bunch. I doubt if they number more than hundreds out of over 30 million Latinos.

And I have no idea why a group of Latino activists saying they are Mimbeno Apache are using lots of Lakota greetings and ceremonies.

----------

http://www.turtletribe.org/about_turtletribe.htm
Members of the Council of the Tribe of Turtle Island, Inc.:

Abe Walkingbear Sanchez, Bear clan Zuni, president and executive director.
Maggid ben Yoseif Tohokwahu, mixed Hebrew-Cherokee, kiva leader, webmaster and story-teller
Ten Rivers, Membreno Apache, spiritual leader, speaker and founder of Iglesia de Aztlan
Ms. Rickie Hall, an experienced speaking coach who books seminars and international speakers.

Elderquest advisory council members:
Walkingbear, Tohokwahu, Ten Rivers and Hall plus fellow seekers:
Peter Howe of Ireland
Max Gail of Wojohowitz fame on Barney Miller (?!?!)
Carlos Hunt
Jerry Pearson
Tom Fitzgerald

--------------

Abe Walkingbear Sanchez
http://www.armg-usa.com/2.htm
International Business Speaker and Trainer,  
Abe WalkingBear Sanchez
has worked with many hundreds of CEO and Top Business Managers
Groups...Including at the Shakespeare Globe Theater in London.

Read Letters and Comments:

University of Industrial Distribution

Atradius -  London

The Irish Institute of Credit Management

Atradius - Czech Republic

Western Suppliers Association  

Powder Coating Institute

Meet the Worldwide
      -Profit Leaders

  Profit Centered
       Credit
    Grows Worldwide

[Spaewife]

Soo probably bogus then? 

[frederica]

Confusing, but it looks like it, know for sure most anything Scott Anderson (Blue otter) has to do with, is a scam. I have to check with someone I know in Colorado, the SunDance website is old and only had one hit.  That area has a pretty large Hispanic population. I can't see them doing a Lakota SunDance either.

[Spaewife]

I'll wait to see what you hear about them all. 

And I'll note to self, anything associated with the blue otter person is a scam of some sort or another.

[frederica]

Okay, from what I can tell after talking with someone. They remember it was a while back, and she can't remember who, but someone was brought in to do a SunDance. The Culture Center Land was used but they did not actually do the SunDance. She never had any information on it, as did not know anyone that went to it. Says the area is hard to get to and  like Al said not many people involved in this. Most are preformers. I know the woman I spoke with was a paralegal, said she danced in the summer, and they toured the U.S. and Canada.  So, like Al says, it's still a mystery how this group became involved with Anderson and TenRivers. It would be hard to think of any kind words to say about either.  It would be interesting to know how these two found each other, as they were seperate not to long ago.

[Moma_porcupine]

The information Al gave seems to be enough to show a lot of what is being claimed doesn't fit with reality but here is some more ;   

http://www.torah-voice.org/Native%20Joes%20and%20LDS%20Church.htm

 

Membreno Apache  spiritual leader Jimmy Tenrivers, co-founder of Iglesia de Aztlan (assembling of the Homeland) today received a $3,000 check from the LDS Church Foundation to help fund the Sun Dance.

note:  Maggid ben Yoseif is asking for donations of used Torahs  and Haftorah's for a Torah study at the Eastern Gate of the Sacred Four Corners.  Native Apache and Indio-Chicano who he has come to know in sweat lodges and at other Apache community functions are eager to learn again of the "forgotten covenant" of the Lamanites.

The whole idea of the Laminities comes out of the belief in the lost tribes of Israel. This started back in the early 1600's because people who believed everyone descended from Adam and Eve had to find a way to explain how people ended up in the Americas if this was true.

http://www.kmatthews.org.uk/cult_archaeology/lost_tribes.html

After the discovery of the New World late in the fifteenth century, Europeans tried to account for how the native peoples who inhabited the land had arrived there. The Bible explained how the peoples of the Old World had spread from the Garden of Eden and medieval writers developed hypotheses about how the three sons of Noah were the ancestors of the populations of the three known continents of Asia, Africa and Europe. These unexpected American Indians had to be explained somehow, as it was unthinkable that they had been overlooked by the divinely inspired Bible

(continues )

Probably that is where the early Mormans got these ideas;   

http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon34.html

Is The Mormon Church stuck with an embarrassing book it cannot historically support?
May 16, 2002
By Rick Ross

Mormons grow up with the belief that Native Americans are somehow related to a lost tribe from Israel. That tribe, they are told, came across the ocean about 600 B.C. to America, led by an otherwise unknown Jewish prophet named "Lehi."

To a Mormon this story is history, but to historians it is simply a fiction, concocted by Joseph Smith within his "Book of Mormon." The complete lack of any objective archaeological or historical proof to support such a story is explained away by Mormon apologists to the faithful. (con...)

Science and faith have increasingly collided as the Mormon religion continues on from its early beginnings. Confronted by historical evidence that repeatedly disproves their holy book, Mormons have long hoped for some artifact or research that would support their faith. Some felt that day might have indeed come through research at The Mormon Church-owned Brigham Young University in Provo, where genetic tests were being done during 2000.

Mormon doctrine claims that Lehi's children eventually became two warring factions, which included the good, white Nephites and the bad, brown Lamanites. The Lamanites, eventually killed all the Nephites by 500 A.D. But the bad, brown Laminates continued to live on and are now called Native Americans.

The Book of Mormon originally stated that when Lamanites converted they would then become "white and delightsome." In 1981 the church decided to replace the word "white" with "pure." It has been said that such Mormon beliefs reflect racism. And though every faithful male Mormon may enter its priesthood, blacks were excluded until 1978. Based upon such stories about the Lamanites, modern Mormon missionaries today often feel called to proselytize amongst aboriginal cultures in South America and the Pacific Islands.

It sounds like the Mormons are being quite aggressive about promoting this idea.

http://www.native-languages.org/iaq9.htm

Setting the Record Straight About Native Peoples: Lost Tribes of Israel

Q: Are Native Americans a lost tribe of Israel, Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, or any other people mentioned in the Bible?
A: No. These Biblical events happened only a few thousand years ago. Native Americans were already here.

(con...)

I have been receiving quite a bit of profanity laced email from Mormons ...

It looks like the Mormons, in their need to confirm their beliefs are willing to support anyone calling themselves Native who will agree with them.

I see all this Mormon stuff about Laminities and lost Israelis is getting mixed with Hopi prophesies. But when you track it back, it leads to stories told by Dorthy Daigle who is reportedly an affiliate of Blue Otter and the Maggid ben Yoseif and claims to have been taught by a Cherokee elder .

http://ezinearticles.com/?Hopi-Prophecy,-Exciting-Fulfillment-Happening!&id=459208

Hopi Prophecy, Exciting Fulfillment Happening
By Dorothy K Daigle Platinum Quality Author

Dottie has received some revelation regarding the Hopi since Elder Red Hat's passing in December of 2003. She was told by Creator that the prophecy in Ezekiel 37 stating that He would unite the House of Judah and the House of Joseph as one, is the same event as the completion of the Hopi migration back to Jerusalem. She understands from Maggid ben Yoseif that this event must take place before the end of 2008 or else another judgment would be put on the House of Israel, the Ten Northern Tribes of which The House of Joseph is apparently the leader. Apparently, if this union does not occur, Israel will be in for much destruction and chaos! It is also likely that what happens to Israel will happen to the rest of the world so we are all affected!

http://ezinearticles.com/?expert_bio=Dorothy_K_Daigle

interesting I see this website says ;
   

Report this author if you suspect they are involved in any fraudulent practices.

Dorothy was taught by Cherokee elder and wisdom keeper, John Red Hat Duke, for over ten years in the Keetoowah Cherokee spiritual ways, in Eastern philosophy, and in Judaism. She was raised Christian so she has a good working knowledge of Christianity. She does not claim any religion now, but strives to walk the Red Road spiritual path. She received her call from Creator in the fall of '92, and was then taught by the great prophet Elijah for four years, at which time she received the directive, "Always wear white!" She was given four assurances by Creator when He called her. She was told that she was annointed by the Holy One of Israel, that she would be protected until this work was done, that Creator would go before her whenever He sent her somewhere, and that she did not have to prove herself to anyone. Her calling is to be Creator's witness. She carries wisdom of many years of living under Creator's guidance and direction.

Dorthy Daigle is mentioned in the thread below as an affiliate of Blue Otter. Blue otter 's parents are reported in this thread to have been Mormons.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=137.msg6481#msg6481

looks like a bunch of people with beliefs that don't fit with reality using each other to prop themselves up.

[frederica]

The information Al gave seems to be enough to show a lot of what is being claimed doesn't fit with reality but here is some moretopic=137.msg6481#msg6481[/url]
looks like a bunch of people with beliefs that don't fit with reality using each other to prop themselves up.

        I think that about sums it up.

[Spaewife]

Gods that sight is a pain to navigate and read.. laugh..

Basically they are all fraudulent as a 3 dollar bill I take it?

found this one though.. 

http://www.torah-voice.org/Utah%20meetings%20release.htm

enrivers together with Tomas Oso Itsa of the Shash (Bear) Clan, founded Iglesia de Aztlan, (the assembling of the Homeland) in 1998 as a spiritual vessel to accommodate a growing Apache and Chicano-Indio population in southern Colorado.

Tenrivers was one of the first to dance at the annual Sun Dance held at Aztlan's ceremonial grounds near Gardner, CO.  The dance comes from the tradition of Eagle-Feather, who mentored Tomas Oso for 20 years. Eagle-Feather restored the dance -- banned by the U.S. Government for more than 100 years -- in 1976.

http://www.takompark.info/library/mt/archives/2004_10.html

'Eaglebear'

Aztlan: Native American Storytelling, Song, and Dance

The Thanksgiving season is now traditionally celebrated at the Takoma Park Maryland Library with a visit from Tomas Shash, spokesperson and elder of the Atzlan Native American Cultural Arts Center in Gardner, Colorado. This year’s visit from Tomas and the Aztlan dance theatre group will take place in the Children’s Room on Monday, November 8 at 7 p.m.
http://www.saveourstate.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t19048.html

Tomas “Eagle Bear??? Shash of Aztlan Native American Cultural Arts Center of Gardner, Colo., pauses during a traditional Native American performance Saturday morning at Stone Fence Gardens. etc.. 

http://www.stonefencegardens.com/

has a photo  dunno who is who in it though..

[Moma_porcupine]

I'm not sure if all the people involved are phoney. I know good people can sometimes have unusual personal interests and can get involved in some fringe groups.

One thing I overlooked in my post above is that there is a Hopi Elder mentioned as recognizing these people, and this Elder is a real person . Though from what I can see it seems very doubtful the claims the Hopi's recognize these people are true.  From another part of the ezinearticle quoted from above ;

http://ezinearticles.com/?Hopi-Prophecy,-Exciting-Fulfillment-Happening!&id=459208

Cherokee elder and wisdom keeper, John Red Hat Duke, met many times with Hopi Chiefs and elders. He was a close personal friend of John Lansa, who Dottie understands was Hopi Chief of Oraibi over 25 years ago. Elder Red Hat was very good friends with the last Chief of Oraibi and consulted with him on some very important timely issues. John Red Hat's group of himself, Dottie, and Dr. Robertson was accepted as the Pahana group that the Hopi have been waiting for for centuries.

The Hopi Chief John Lansa  appears to be a real person and he is mentioned in the website below , though that doesn't mean he actually had a relationship with these people as is being claimed.
 
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:PqTdnjJ8zf0J:www.religionandnature.com/ern/sample/Loeffler--Black
Mesa.pdf+%22John+Lansa%22+Hopi+Oraibi&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca

In early 1971, my wife Katherine and I were invited by traditional Hopis into the kiva, or subterranean sacred ceremonial chamber at Hotevilla on Third Mesa. Present were twenty or so male elders including David Menongye, Thomas Banyacya and John Lansa, husband of Mina Lansa, then the kikmongwi or traditional leader of Old Oraibi.

Was this John Red Hat Duke a real person? He is mentioned in Wikipedia, not that that proves anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Keetoowah_Society

John Red Hat Duke

The late elder John Red Hat Duke (1930-2002), was old enough to be a well known enrollee in both the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and in the United Keetoowah Band. He remembered that his full-blood grandmothers who raised him spoke a now considered-to-be-dead Southern Keetoowah dialect, and that they pronounced Keetoowah as kee-too'-rah, with a trilled "R" sound. Elder Red Hat was born into the Anigilohi (Long Hair) Clan and raised in the Old Cherokee Religion, and later converted to Judaism and became a Rabbi listed in the American Jewish Archives.

Elder Red Hat caught the attention of the Hopi Elders at Oraibi back in the 1960s because of his seeming (at least) partial fulfillment of the Hopi Prophecy, in which one the Hopi called Banaha (True White Brother) would:

1. Appear with two helpers, one male and one female.

2. Would be identified with the color red,

3. Would come from the "largest nation" (Cherokee is the largest Indian Nation),

4. Would wear a red hat or cloak,

5. Would come from the east of Hopi,

6. Would have his own distinctive religion.

7. Would be fair skinned.

John Red Hat Duke was a Cherokee Indian and member of the Keetoowah Nighthawk Society. In the eyes of the Oraibi Kykmongwes (Chiefs), John Red Hat fulfilled all their prophecies but one. After many years of association of John Red Hat with the late Oraibi chiefs John and Mina Lansa, their son, the late Kykmongwe (chief) Mike of Oraibi declared the Hopi Prophecy to be fulfilled, leaving only the future return of the corner of the Sun Clan tablet. Chief Mike was the last Oraibi Kykmongwe, due to the fact that there is no one with the correct clan lineage.

According to Dr. Tim Jones of the University of Arizona, in ancient times, both the Hopi and Cherokee were known as "The Twin Fires", and in Grand Council when a member of either tribe spoke up, everyone stopped speaking and listened.

I doubt that the Hopi really declared these people fulfill the Hopi prophecy, as is being claimed. If this was so, and it was to be announced publicly, I would have thought it would have been announced by the Hopi in a more official way than in an Ezinearticle. and on Wikipedia . Seems pretty unlikely.

[frederica]

John Red Hat Duke was a real person, who died several years ago. He was Keetoowah. Last I heard Hopi Prophecy only applies to the Hopi. No. I don't think the dancers are fake, The ones we saw were in Aztec regalia. They are preformers.