Fake Pipe Carriers

[voiceOfReason]

Just out of curiosity... What, exactly, is a "fake pipe carrier", and how is one to know if they are in the presence of such a creature?  In addition, what difference does the "colour" of the carrier make?

If you do your research you will find that in every one of the four colours of people, pipes are traditional in spirit work, medicine, or whatever you want to call it.  The First Nations people are not unique in this. Medicine men from all cultures traditionally used pipes in their ceremony.

I'm just a simple, humble person who knows his own spiritual ways... I pray to the great spirit and walk this Earth in the best way I know how and attend ceremony when it presents itself.  I give my offerings to all of the people of this land, and offer my appreciation for the gifts that they give me. I have been extremely fortunate to attend sweat lodge with good people from all four directions, and the teaching I receive from this is that once the door closes, we are all the same colour.  Good spirits shine through no matter what wrapping is on the outside.

These things are not about surface, they are about intention.  That's what matters.  And this is what every pipe responds to.  The pipe feels what the carrier feels.  If the pipe is shown the respect it deserves and is used in a good way, it doesn't matter who or what is carrying it.  I have seen beautiful canupua in the hands of first nations people that are dead because they fill them with anger and bitterness for the white man.  And I have seen simple corncob pipes in the hands of black brothers that give you no choice but to open your heart to the warmth and wonder of the great spirit.  Even a simple cigarette carries power to one who's heart is truly open.

The pipe is a living, breathing thing.  Whether you feel the person is "plastic" or "fake", grabbing a Canupa out of a carrier's hands shows nothing but disrespect for the pipe itself.  There is a reason the pipe decided to be with that person, and if the pipe did not want to be with that person, it would not be.  If you truly have respect for these ways, you would know this and you would respect it.  It is not your place to question or decide for it.  All you need to do is see that it is so, and receive your teachings.

In these times, Mother Earth needs all the help she can get.  All she requires from you is that your heart is pure.  The pipe carrier's job is HARD.  If you feel anything other than appreciation when you are in the presence of a carrier, perhaps you need to ask yourself why this is so.

All my relations.

[LittleOldMan]

I may be incorrect on this issue  If I am please let me know.  First for many original people the use of tobacco in or out of ceremony was not an uncommon event.  I understand that where tobacco was not available other substances were used.  I believe ,for example,  some of the plains tribes user red willow bark.  The Cherokee had three pipes if I am correct.  A man and a Woman each had their own pipe used as a remedy for some ailment either physical or mental.  The smoking mixture was prepared by the medicine person for the particular situation.  The third pipe was smoked at ceremony sometimes by all present.  Here my ignorance will show.  I heard or read somewhere that in the case of the Sacred C'anupa only men were to be pipe carriers am I incorrect here?  As a traditional and cultural purest I do not believe that one should violate custom and culture out of one's own selfish desires.  As a Christian the Pipe is not my way of worship but I will not disrespect those to whom it is as a part of their culture.  Just do it in correct cultural manner.  There is a command in the Bible than we are not to add or take away not a jot or tittle from the scriptures under threat of severe censure.  So just as a Christian should be very careful about how he uses his ceremony so should those who worship with the Pipe.  Beware those of you who corrupt what the Creator has set in motion.  Stand under no trees during a thunderstorm.  "LOM"
 

[earthw7]

Just out of curiosity... What, exactly, is a "fake pipe carrier", and how is one to know if they are in the presence of such a creature?  In addition, what difference does the "colour" of the carrier make?

If you do your research you will find that in every one of the four colours of people, pipes are traditional in spirit work, medicine, or whatever you want to call it.  The First Nations people are not unique in this. Medicine men from all cultures traditionally used pipes in their ceremony.

I'm just a simple, humble person who knows his own spiritual ways... I pray to the great spirit and walk this Earth in the best way I know how and attend ceremony when it presents itself.  I give my offerings to all of the people of this land, and offer my appreciation for the gifts that they give me. I have been extremely fortunate to attend sweat lodge with good people from all four directions, and the teaching I receive from this is that once the door closes, we are all the same colour.  Good spirits shine through no matter what wrapping is on the outside.

These things are not about surface, they are about intention.  That's what matters.  And this is what every pipe responds to.  The pipe feels what the carrier feels.  If the pipe is shown the respect it deserves and is used in a good way, it doesn't matter who or what is carrying it.  I have seen beautiful canupua in the hands of first nations people that are dead because they fill them with anger and bitterness for the white man.  And I have seen simple corncob pipes in the hands of black brothers that give you no choice but to open your heart to the warmth and wonder of the great spirit.  Even a simple cigarette carries power to one who's heart is truly open.

The pipe is a living, breathing thing.  Whether you feel the person is "plastic" or "fake", grabbing a Canupa out of a carrier's hands shows nothing but disrespect for the pipe itself.  There is a reason the pipe decided to be with that person, and if the pipe did not want to be with that person, it would not be.  If you truly have respect for these ways, you would know this and you would respect it.  It is not your place to question or decide for it.  All you need to do is see that it is so, and receive your teachings.

In these times, Mother Earth needs all the help she can get.  All she requires from you is that your heart is pure.  The pipe carrier's job is HARD.  If you feel anything other than appreciation when you are in the presence of a carrier, perhaps you need to ask yourself why this is so.

All my relations.

Well that is nice.
We have a protection order, if you want a pipe that nice but don't say
"We are all relate", Don't relate that pipe to Lakota way, our language or our culture.
Don't use our direction (each tribe has their own) don't use our colors and if i find that a person is using any of these i will takle that pipe because it is my right. 
No you have no right! you have no say!  and you are not sacred,
NO non Indians.
I know I know it is white privledge you take and take and take with no right to.

[earthw7]

I may be incorrect on this issue  If I am please let me know.  First for many original people the use of tobacco in or out of ceremony was not an uncommon event.  I understand that where tobacco was not available other substances were used.  I believe ,for example,  some of the plains tribes user red willow bark.  The Cherokee had three pipes if I am correct.  A man and a Woman each had their own pipe used as a remedy for some ailment either physical or mental.  The smoking mixture was prepared by the medicine person for the particular situation.  The third pipe was smoked at ceremony sometimes by all present.  Here my ignorance will show.  I heard or read somewhere that in the case of the Sacred C'anupa only men were to be pipe carriers am I incorrect here?  As a traditional and cultural purest I do not believe that one should violate custom and culture out of one's own selfish desires.  As a Christian the Pipe is not my way of worship but I will not disrespect those to whom it is as a part of their culture.  Just do it in correct cultural manner.  There is a command in the Bible than we are not to add or take away not a jot or tittle from the scriptures under threat of severe censure.  So just as a Christian should be very careful about how he uses his ceremony so should those who worship with the Pipe.  Beware those of you who corrupt what the Creator has set in motion.  Stand under no trees during a thunderstorm.  "LOM"
 

The Pipe carrier are the men, there is a few who are real pipe carriers,
The women have their own pipe for prayer. Two different things

[Defend the Sacred]

Just out of curiosity... What, exactly, is a "fake pipe carrier",

It is someone who is not authorized by the traditional Lakota elders to do pipe ceremony. If you were a real pipe carrier, or had met any, you would know what this meant.

If you do your research you will find that in every one of the four colours of people, pipes are traditional in spirit work, medicine, or whatever you want to call it. 

You are mistaken. You are attempting to use Lakota terms and symbols, not "universal" ones. You probably have just been exposed to people who are not Lakota and don't know what they're talking about. Now is your chance to learn how to not be offensive.

You need to realize that there are people here who don't need to "do research" to find out what Lakota traditions are, as they are Lakota, such as Earth, who has responded in this thread. For people here, traditional ways are not about the Internet and books, they are real, living traditions, maintained by actual communities of Indigenous people. The "validity" of non-NDN people who want to use NDN ceremonies is not up for debate. The purpose of this site is to fight that abuse.

I suggest you read the introductory posts in the threads here, and documents and sites like these: Protection of Ceremonies (a statement from Lakota elders) http://www.123hjemmeside.dk/indianerforedrag/5945831
http://www.geocities.com/ourredearth/declaration.html

[LittleOldMan]

 Earth wrote "The Pipe carrier are the men, there is a few who are real pipe carriers,
The women have their own pipe for prayer. Two different things "
 
Thanks Earth I understand "LOM"

[earthw7]

I was in a hurry before I am sorry

The men who become the Pipe Carriers have many stages
they have to do before they are given the privledge. They must
live their lives for the people and be at their call at all times.
Women do not do this they have a prayer pipe which they
can pray with for their family.
The men pray for the people and women pray for their families.

In a camp you would have only a couple of pipe carriers.

If you have a pipe does not give you the right to be pipe carrier, only
the Native Spiritual men can give you this right after you complete many
years of rituals.

No white/Black/Yellow person can be a pipe carrier.
Plus many tribal people have pipes but being a pipe carriers
is a Lakota/Dakota/Nakota traditon. 

[LittleOldMan]

Earth; No problem I do understand.  It is the Pipe carrier's responsibility to care for the people.  They have to live a clean pure life both physically as well as spiritual.  They can let no corruption come into their life.  I have met many spiritual men and women over my life time I have found the they all have these same things in common.  The most important factor of all of them is that they have a one on one on going personal relationship with the Creator.  "LOM"

[Chaska]

My Elders who are NDN, My relatives who are NDN, have all been blessed by the Sacred Ways, they always say "It is difficult to be NDN, there is much we must do, all these ways must be authorized by the Medicinemen, the Elders of the Tribe and that person who takes on these responsibilities, must know and speak the Language.  Those who carry these spiritual responsibilites must FAST (no food, no water, no sleep and continious prayer to the Creator) all the time, being place on a FAST by the Medicinemen through ceremony.....
Those who imitate the ways and take shortcuts are not connected to the Ways.
Those who are not NDN by blood are not connected to the Ways.
The Protocols, have been established by our ancestors for thousands of years, we do not and connect change what has been given to us to follow on this path our ancestors set for us.
These sacred intruments are powerful and we must help our NDN people with these sacred.
We cannot afford to make mistakes on this sacred path of our spirituality, no shortcuts.
So for those who imitate and are not NDN by blood, then they risk their own families health and happiness by trying to imitate themselves in the sacred ways.
These photos of the so called altar is not a true Altar, it is only a person imitating.

[voiceOfReason]

Well that is nice.
We have a protection order, if you want a pipe that nice but don't say
"We are all relate", Don't relate that pipe to Lakota way, our language or our culture.
Don't use our direction (each tribe has their own) don't use our colors and if i find that a person is using any of these i will takle that pipe because it is my right. 
No you have no right! you have no say!  and you are not sacred,
NO non Indians.
I know I know it is white privledge you take and take and take with no right to.

You make assumptions that show your ignorance, racism and prejudice.

"Protection order"?  Like the Christian church, do you now police the spiritual realm?

When you say "all my relations", do you exclude any in this universe from that?  White, black, yellow, purple, blue, two legs, four legs, winged, fins, standing people.  If any are excluded, then you are lost to your own spirit and your words are only that.  Words.  They have no meaning.

What of Cree? Blood? Anishinabe? Tlingit? Many many tribes.  Lakota are not the only first nations people.  These people all have their own teachings. Their own way.  Colours are the same for some. Tradition... some are the same, some are not. The spirits speak ALL languages, not just Lakota.

No, it is not "your right" to deny the pipe it's will.  To do so is not sacred.  When you say it is your right to choose another's spirituality, you are no better than the white people who try to take away yours.

This greediness. This anger. This judgement.  While you embrace these in your heart you are lost to the meaning of your own spirit.

All my relations

[voiceOfReason]

It is someone who is not authorized by the traditional Lakota elders to do pipe ceremony. If you were a real pipe carrier, or had met any, you would know what this meant.
 

Who I am, and whether I am a pipe carrier or have met an official, "authorized" Lakota pipe carrier makes no difference. You know I speak truth.

Lakota is not the only tribe, nor do they decide who can and who cannot carry a pipe for those the world over.  I feel that it may be prudent for you to expand your attention to elsewhere in the world, as it is the planet upon which you live, inhabited by those you call your relations.  These rules are Lakota, yes, because it is their wish to define rules about these things.  Simply deciding to define rules does not make it good, or true, or right.

White Buffalo Calf Woman did not tell the people that they must define rules around who can and cannot carry a pipe.

If you do your research you will find that in every one of the four colours of people, pipes are traditional in spirit work, medicine, or whatever you want to call it. 

You are mistaken. You are attempting to use Lakota terms and symbols, not "universal" ones. You probably have just been exposed to people who are not Lakota and don't know what they're talking about. Now is your chance to learn how to not be offensive.

I am not the one who needs to learn this, sister.  There are first nations people from my country who would take you to the ground for speaking in this way.  You are assuming that I am speaking of Lakota ways, when I am not.  Never once did I make reference to the Lakota people.  My knowledge of other indigenous cultures comes from both research and experience.  So, no, I'm afraid I am not mistaken.

Making the statement that those who are not Lakota "do not know what they are talking about" is offensive to many.  Perhaps there is something here that you could learn.

You need to realize that there are people here who don't need to "do research" to find out what Lakota traditions are, as they are Lakota, such as Earth, who has responded in this thread. For people here, traditional ways are not about the Internet and books, they are real, living traditions, maintained by actual communities of Indigenous people. The "validity" of non-NDN people who want to use NDN ceremonies is not up for debate. The purpose of this site is to fight that abuse.

Again, I never once spoke of Lakota, nor did I mention the Lakota.  I understand that the original thread has to do with one who feels she is related to the Lakota in some way, but my statements are in general, not specific.  I stated that people need to do research to understand other cultures, and understand how the pipe is used within them.  Again, the use of a pipe in spiritual traditions is not exclusive to the First Nations people.

I have great respect for the purpose of this site, which is why I am here.  I see medicines bought and sold, I see sacred objects treated with disrespect, and I see people taken advantage of and being charged money to attend ceremony.  But I also believe that attempting to control spirit with rules and exclusionary practices is just as disrespectful to the spirit of these things.  Spirit is freely available to all, no matter how they wish to practice it.

I am Wihtikokan. I am a contrary spirit.  This talk of "validity" makes me laugh.  The great spirit does not judge, or speak through one people only.  This is what the Christians try to convince all of us of and they used this reasoning to try to wipe out First Nations culture.  This is the belief that Muslims will kill you for.

This is a far cry from the true meaning of "all my relations".  If that is disrespect, then I will be disrespectful so you can see the truth of these words.

All my relations

[educatedindian]

This attempt to hijack a thread in Frauds was moved. Kindly have the manners not to do that again, Voice.

Voice/Contrary, you certainly are being disrespectful. You are presuming to lecture a Lakota about Lakota traditions. And you are smearing people as racist when they dedicate themselves to fighting the racism inherent in white Nuagers asserting White Privilege, that they somehow "have a right" to take over, misuse, misrepresent, etc, Native traditions.

This is especially ironic since you use the English spelling for "colour" leading me to believe you are likely a European. So all that you say is very condescending.

If you don't know that virtually EVERY Native tradition I'm aware of says one must be a part of that people to be a teacher or medicine person, then you don't know much.

You also are making an ignorant claim that all tribal peoples practice pipe traditions, even including Africans. So tell me, why don't Apaches have pipe keepers? (Pipe carrier is the Nuage term, and hundreds of THEM imagine themselves to be "pipe carriers".)

Navajos? Cherokees? Six Nations? Mayans? Etc, etc. In fact none of the tribes outside of the Plains have keepers of a sacred pipe in anything even close to what the Lakota do. Pipes are used in ceremony sometimes, but not nearly in the same way. Like many Nuagers, you are homogenizing all Native traditions, imagining them to be nearly identical.

You claim you know these things based on "learning and experience" and yet you also make the very prideful boasting claim of being a contrary. This can't help but give us the impression that you have yourself been taken in people falsely claiming to be medicine people, and that you want to believe somehow they are not wrong. I hope I'm wrong about that (since I don't like to see anyone harmed or lied to) but it does seem like that is what's driving these bizarre and insulting attempts to lecture Native people about Native traditions.

And a European claiming to be a contrary. I don't even see much of a need to say more, since it destroys all credibility for you. I'll simply ask you what your purpose is in here except to give yourself a false sense of superiority by imagining you somehow know more than people actually raised in the traditions.

I hope you stay and learn, and that one of the first things you learn is something most Natives have been taught by elders and family, to listen more than speak, or you will never learn anything.

[Chaska]

The Redstone Pipe, these Redstone Pipes are sacred to the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota, the area that these sacred stone is mined, is within the territory of the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota.  The Lakota/Dakota/Nakota people are the caretakers of the Ways associated wtih the Redstone Pipes, and within those protocols is the way of being to walk with sacred pipe.  Not everyone and all carried these sacred Pipes, only those whose life was dedicated to the spiritual well being of the people, was chosen to be the one to use the sacred pipe to pray for the people....
The words "All My Relations" is powerful, but the meaning today has been distorted by those who do not truly understand it, those who do not understand it want to use it to include themselves to in some way authorize themselves to carry a sacred pipe.....to do it without the proper protocols.....these protocols were given to be followed by the Calf Pipe Woman, who brought the sacred instrument to the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota people, so these protocols are seriously important.....In the old days history, these Redstones were given to the other tribes to help them with a blessing, to pray for their people, these Redstones were prayed with and given in a positive way, along with basic protocols....these redstones were given to those who have dedicated themselves to the spiritual well being of their people.....When the protocols were given the words "All My Relations" meant for all our Relations including every creation.....there was no knowledge of the White Race, Black Race or Yellow Races....It was meant for what the Red Man knew in the World he was born into and all those associated with this land....now, today this country and all these Races want what was given to the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota peoples, the Redstone.......yet they want to disregard the protocols to have it and try to use the meaning of All My Relations to include themselves into it.......They try to make the words into a racist meaning.....there is the mistake of it......

[Moma_porcupine]

I guess I will put in my 2 cents worth here....

First of all I am having difficulty with your user name, as you sound more like the voice of arrogance than the voice of reason.

Yes many indigenous Nations used pipes and several have a long relationship with the Sacred Pipe. As far as I know, all the First Nations that had a relationship with the Sacred Pipe have had very strict protocols around how the Sacred Pipe is treated, and when, where, and by whom it may be used.

You parrot off "All my relations" but you reduce the Sacred Pipe to nothing more than an object, when you remove it from all it's relationships with The People, and the culture.

In order to have a culture there has to be a structure, which means there are rules, and things that are done a certain way and not done a certain way.

Maybe a properly cared for Sacred Pipe can sometimes help individual non native people, though I am not sure about that. A lot of the power of traditional things like the Pipe seems to be in the connection they provide indigenous people to their own ancient history . So I am not sure how well these things can work outside of this context. They may work OK occasionally, but i am very sure that if traditions are removed from the context in which they have a long history, they loose much of their power to lift people into something much greater than themselves, and the healing this provides. I also believe Prayers performed with sincerity anywhere by anyone, have the power to heal and are a help to the world. Probably this is especially true when these Prayers have the added support and context provided by ones own ancient traditions, but when the outer trappings of other peoples traditions are adopted, it really seems to miss the point of both Prayer and the purpose of traditions in supporting Prayer. 

By removing the Sacred Pipe from the culture, the protocols, the rules of how these things are done, you remove the Pipe from all it's relations, and it is being treated like a non living object. 

Only non living objects are not affected by their relationships, how they are cared for, or what conditions they find themselves in .

I wonder how long the Christian religion would last if anyone who went out and bought a
an little statue of Jesus could declare themselves a fully ordained minister, in the belief the power of the Jesus statue would over power any persons incompetence, arrogance, dishonesty or even exploitation.

I wonder what would become of the Buddhist religion if all the teachings were reduced to possessing a little stone statue of the Buddha.

Your belief system sounds materialistic and object oriented, with some magical thinking mixed in there that conviniently relieves you from any responsibility for the relationships your own behavior has the power to build or destroy. You might want to consider what you actually mean when you say "All my relations".

It's only non native culture that assumes the world revolves around individual people and what they personally possess.     

[debbieredbear]

Voice,

You claim you are not using Lakota ways and yet you bring up White Buffalo Calf Woman who is only a part of Lakota/Dakota/Nakota ways. And also the much misused phrase you use of "All My Relations" is another thing from that culture. And from a late Lakota friend, I know how skewed nuagers have made this phrase. You nuagers seem to think it means something entirely different then what it truly means. But I will leave that for Lakota People to explain that.