Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council

[educatedindian]

  It has been pointed out that some have a problem with Ben allowing non Indians into ceremony. If these people are not neuagers and are coming in a good way without the intent of taking what they learn to be exploiters; then what is the problem with that?

 Isn't a person who does such things to help people obligated to help other human beings?

 I have know very good elders who were without  doubt Indian and not exploiters allow non's into sweats.

 If this is wrong for them to do, then don't you think that a person that has no proof of who they are and look like another race should not be allowed in as well?

 In the eyes of many even Dr.Al himself is not Indian, and in the eyes of many so is your friend Walks a non Indian.

Rattlebone, for someone who has said several times we should be careful about whose word we listen to, I'm amazed you accept obvious lies from extremely dubious sources. The ones who have said I'm not NDN are exploiters and their supporters, along with supporters of white supremacist (who claims to be part Comanche) David Yeagley. I suppose you would accept a Nazi's word about who is and isn't Jewish? A KKK member's word about if Obama is Black?

The question you raise is something that's been brought up many times in other threads. Some NDNs do oppose letting people outside the community into ceremony. Some don't if they come in a good way (although separating out who comes in a good way can be very difficult.)

If Carnes and EMC publicly say they allow nonNatives in, then that discussion over the rightness of it should go on in those other threads in here, not this one. To me, and to others, the problem is that you have at least some who are not coming in a good way, and who clearly are Nuagers, such as the one who promoted a fraud, Drunvalo Menchadezek (sp?) on the EMC yahoo group.

You bring up sweats, but sweats have a healing purpose. To me at least, a sweat that, for example, helps heal a nonNative veteran of PTSD is aclearlu good thing. But the Sundance is meant to tie the people of a nation together. How would letting nonNatives in fit with that?

[educatedindian]

"Grandmother Shirley" is apparently Shirley Barclay, described by some as a white hippie Nuage nurse. She apparently attended the EMC Sundance in 2007 and some accounts says she caused quite a bit of problems. I would like some of Carnes' supporters to address the question of her.
 
Here's a description of her on an altmedicine/alternative pyschology site:

http://psychodramacertification.com/index.php?name=Directory&s3mode=show&s3uid=40
"Shirley A. Barclay R.N., M.S.N., C.N.S., L.M.F.T., T.E.P.
Address
Dallas & Seattle Training Institute
for Psychodrama & Sociometry
411 Bond St.
Red Oak, TX 75154
Office Phone: 214-673-4195....
Shirley A. Barclay has been a Certified Trainer in Psychodrama, Sociometry and Group Psychotherapy since 1978. She is a Life Member and Fellow of the ASGPP. She is a certified Marriage and Family Therapist and is also a Clinical Nurse Specialist in Psychiatric Mental Health Nursing. She is a Trained Healer in two Native American traditions and works with the interface of the Western and Indigenous Traditions when she is training and working with her students. She has traveled and taught in Europe, the Far East, the Middle East, the U.S., and South America over the past 25 + years and continues to do so. She is a member of the American Counseling Association and the American Multi Cultural Division of that organization. She is also on the Board of The Center of Health and Whole Healing, Inc., and on the Board of the Texas Cherokee's. She is a Wolf Clan Mother and healer for the Cherokee people of Texas. She has walked a Lakota path for 28 years and is a Pipe Carrier, and Sun Dancer...."
 
I deleted the home and cell phone nos.

A Cherokee claiming to be a Lakota healer? Yet another pipe carrier?
The Texas Cherokees are an unrecognized group who have many actual Cherokees, but also many who probably are not, or are better described as descendants.
Steve Russell, a Cherokee law professor, once told me that Cherokee generally don't discuss their clan with outsiders, as it was not any of their business.
So I'm not sure if Barlcay is what she says she is.

[Moma_porcupine]

If people claim to be leaders of real traditions, it seems important they follow whatever is considered the correct protocol of those traditions.

So , on that premise, I have a few questions

From which Nation's Spiritual leaders did Ben learn what he needs to know to lead a Sundance? 

Does this Nation traditionally have people who are called a Sundance Chief , and within this Nation what is usually required to have the right to do this ? 

How did Ben Carnes become a Sundance Chief? Who taught him ? Who gave him permission to do this? Is the process that Ben went through what is generally required within that Nations traditions?

What other Elders support and participate in this Sundance ?

Generally speaking, within his community , who else is involved in helping Ben in his leadership role? What Elders of equal or greater authority is Ben involved with on a daily basis? 

[Rattlebone]

Rattlebone, for someone who has said several times we should be careful about whose word we listen to, I'm amazed you accept obvious lies from extremely dubious sources. The ones who have said I'm not NDN are exploiters and their supporters, along with supporters of white supremacist (who claims to be part Comanche) David Yeagley. I suppose you would accept a Nazi's word about who is and isn't Jewish? A KKK member's word about if Obama is Black?

 Oh I never said I believed what they said about you. I said what I said in reference to you, as to make a point. The person whom I was making this point to is friends with a person whom from what I have seen them say; does not think you are Indian unless you are enrolled and of a certain BQ.

 I have my doubts that Tachia herself is enrolled, and is probably less then 1/4. Then we have Walks who has no proof that he is Indian at all, I am sure is far less then 1/4.

 I don't believe in the concept of BQ, and nor do I feel that enrollment is something that determines the claims somebody has to be Indian is truth or not. So what I said about Tachia and Walks above was not to be an insult against them.

 However it is my belief that some of what they say here, is coming from their support of an individual who has issues with Mr. Carnes that I feel are more based on jealousy then anything else. Yet this individual I won't name would probably not view these two as Indian if they were not on the same side in this issue.

 So if anything, I was trying to catch them in hypocrisy, since I find it odd how some who would probably not be considered Indian by many; would jump on a band wagon and complain about nons being allowed in ceremony when at least one them just might be nothing more then white themselves. Then being unenrolled, would be seen as non by most.

 So it was not to say I believe what your detractors say about you, but to make a much larger point based on many many factors.

You bring up sweats, but sweats have a healing purpose. To me at least, a sweat that, for example, helps heal a nonNative veteran of PTSD is aclearlu good thing. But the Sundance is meant to tie the people of a nation together. How would letting nonNatives in fit with that?

  I am not a Sundancer, most likely never will be, and fully admit it is not something I know very much about. However I do have friends that do Sundance, and some that do know about it. They told me that there are some Sundances in which they are not supposed to turn anyone away, even if they are non Native.  They also said that there are some that do not allow outsiders unless they know somebody and are invited.

 In regards to ceremony and Native ways I am against exploitation just as much as others on this site are. However I do believe that we are all created by the same creator,and I do not believe in this thing called race. I myself, am honestly not big on the idea of allowing nons in native ceremonies, but I am not against it as long as those who are allowed do come in a good way and don't take what they have learned to exploit.

 

 

[mamaduck33]

If people claim to be leaders of real traditions, it seems important they follow whatever is considered the correct protocol of those traditions.

So , on that premise, I have a few questions

From which Nation's Spiritual leaders did Ben learn what he needs to know to lead a Sundance? 

Does this Nation traditionally have people who are called a Sundance Chief , and within this Nation what is usually required to have the right to do this ? 

How did Ben Carnes become a Sundance Chief? Who taught him ? Who gave him permission to do this? Is the process that Ben went through what is generally required within that Nations traditions?

What other Elders support and participate in this Sundance ?

Generally speaking, within his community , who else is involved in helping Ben in his leadership role? What Elders of equal or greater authority is Ben involved with on a daily basis? 

Both Ben and his wife have answered all these questions already.

[Moma_porcupine]

Both Ben and his wife have answered all these questions already.

Mammaduck , could youy please show me where this was explained? I guess the 9 pages of flaming make the truth hard to find.   All I see is this ...

Reply #20
Ben Carnes

As I see it from my experience, I pray and the Creator lets me know what I must do and whenever I follow my directions, some really wonderful things have happened. So I know the Creator supports me in what I do.

[mamaduck33]

I thought that I saw it in the very first thread that was posted about Ben.  The one were Ben himself posted as well as his wife.  If it was not posted there than maybe it was posted from in a group on myspace.  If that's the case, i appologize and will try to find it.

[tachia]

since it was brought up in here, i thought i would go and at least look again at the front page of the carnes yahoo group for their widely promoted "eagle mountain spiritual council".. interesting to say the least .. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eagle_mountain/ .. is now set to private, "members" only, access to even the front page denied ..
 i have not had "member" access for many, many months now, yet it used to be that you could at least see the groups front page, their "about us",  even if you could not get in .. .. hmmmmm .. what have they to hide?? .. the carnes speak publicly about their organization: ego, ooops sorry, eagle mountain spiritual council, ALL the time, promote it everywhere, ask for "donations" .. etc! ..

and as soon as certain things in the group/organization are being questioned in here, they restrict it to "members" only .. exactly what are they hiding?? .. and from whom??.. and why?? .. .. IF their "eagle mountain spiritual council" IS a legitimate organization, as they claim, with nothing questionable to hide then why hide anything?? .. .. .. ..

if a group or organization is "secret" .. there is a problem .. .. jmo .. .. .. ..

[frederica]

Well, it may be as simple as not wanting their business public.  If they are conducting private business within the group, it can be protected.  This is not rocket science.  We have been through the same thing.  You have wild people coming in with personal agendas.  It was suggested we do the same.  But that would defeat our purpose as an education group.  So we just deal with it.  I think we are waiting on specific answers to some questions, so lets be patient.

[Rattlebone]

since it was brought up in here, i thought i would go and at least look again at the front page of the carnes yahoo group for their widely promoted "eagle mountain spiritual council".. interesting to say the least .. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eagle_mountain/ .. is now set to private, "members" only, access to even the front page denied ..
 i have not had "member" access for many, many months now, yet it used to be that you could at least see the groups front page, their "about us",  even if you could not get in .. .. hmmmmm .. what have they to hide?? .. the carnes speak publicly about their organization: ego, ooops sorry, eagle mountain spiritual council, ALL the time, promote it everywhere, ask for "donations" .. etc! ..

and as soon as certain things in the group/organization are being questioned in here, they restrict it to "members" only .. exactly what are they hiding?? .. and from whom??.. and why?? .. .. IF their "eagle mountain spiritual council" IS a legitimate organization, as they claim, with nothing questionable to hide then why hide anything?? .. .. .. ..

if a group or organization is "secret" .. there is a problem .. .. jmo .. .. .. ..

  Have you ever ran or moderated any type of website or online group yourself?

 If you had you would know that a lot of the times people post things on there when you are not around that you might not like. If you happen to be away from your computer at the time they do, you might not be able to delete what was said and speak to the poster about it.

[Childish insults, gossip, and insinuations removed. Grow up, RB.]

[Moma_porcupine]

If people claim to be leaders of real traditions, it seems important they follow whatever is considered the correct protocol of those traditions.

So , on that premise, I have a few questions

From which Nation's Spiritual leaders did Ben learn what he needs to know to lead a Sundance? 

Does this Nation traditionally have people who are called a Sundance Chief , and within this Nation what is usually required to have the right to do this ? 

How did Ben Carnes become a Sundance Chief? Who taught him ? Who gave him permission to do this? Is the process that Ben went through what is generally required within that Nations traditions?

What other Elders support and participate in this Sundance ?

Generally speaking, within his community , who else is involved in helping Ben in his leadership role? What Elders of equal or greater authority is Ben involved with on a daily basis? 

Both Ben and his wife have answered all these questions already.

Mamaduck, I've been looking trying to see where Ben has answered these questions already , and I'm not having much luck finding it. Could you post a link to where this is located?

As a lot of people don't seem to understand why these questions get asked, I thought it might be helpful to post links to a couple of threads with some general discussions about the Protection of Ceremonies

The thread below is an interesting exploration of why protecting Lakota Ceremonies is even controversial
in the first place

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1326.0

and this thread below explores whats the harm of when these ceremonies get removed from being practiced in the context of a strong traditional community.

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1110.0

These general concerns seem to be very complex and are about a lot more than any individual, or Ben Carnes specifically ......

[mamaduck33]

I've been looking for the thread on myspace where Ben and Cat both explained all those answers.  It was also one that Tachia Hawk posted in and defended the Carnes in.  I want to say it was through Fools Crow but can not answer for the Carnes.  Rattlebone, do you remember the groups that was posted in.  I am hoping it wasn't brightstars group because she would have deleted it with her last profile on myspace.

[tachia]

"Grandmother Shirley" is apparently Shirley Barclay, described by some as a white hippie Nuage nurse. She apparently attended the EMC Sundance in 2007 and some accounts says she caused quite a bit of problems. I would like some of Carnes' supporters to address the question of her.
 
Here's a description of her on an altmedicine/alternative pyschology site:

http://psychodramacertification.com/index.php?name=Directory&s3mode=show&s3uid=40
"Shirley A. Barclay R.N., M.S.N., C.N.S., L.M.F.T., T.E.P.
Address
Dallas & Seattle Training Institute
for Psychodrama & Sociometry
411 Bond St.
Red Oak, TX 75154
Office Phone: 214-673-4195....
Shirley A. Barclay has been a Certified Trainer in Psychodrama, Sociometry and Group Psychotherapy since 1978. She is a Life Member and Fellow of the ASGPP. She is a certified Marriage and Family Therapist and is also a Clinical Nurse Specialist in Psychiatric Mental Health Nursing. She is a Trained Healer in two Native American traditions and works with the interface of the Western and Indigenous Traditions when she is training and working with her students. She has traveled and taught in Europe, the Far East, the Middle East, the U.S., and South America over the past 25 + years and continues to do so. She is a member of the American Counseling Association and the American Multi Cultural Division of that organization. She is also on the Board of The Center of Health and Whole Healing, Inc., and on the Board of the Texas Cherokee's. She is a Wolf Clan Mother and healer for the Cherokee people of Texas. She has walked a Lakota path for 28 years and is a Pipe Carrier, and Sun Dancer...."
 
I deleted the home and cell phone nos.

A Cherokee claiming to be a Lakota healer? Yet another pipe carrier?
The Texas Cherokees are an unrecognized group who have many actual Cherokees, but also many who probably are not, or are better described as descendants.
Steve Russell, a Cherokee law professor, once told me that Cherokee generally don't discuss their clan with outsiders, as it was not any of their business.
So I'm not sure if Barlcay is what she says she is.

Al ..
"grandmother shirley" (shirley barclay), in addition to attending the 2007 EMSC "sundance"  also attended the 2008 EMSC "sundance" .. and further, i was told that at the 2008  EMSC "sundance "grandmother shirley" was "made" an "Elder" .. whatever that means, i have limited knowledge of the Sundance, it is not my peoples tradition/ceremony .. perhaps someone on the board who is DLN could answer that? .. Earth7 perhaps? ..

i agree with you .. it would certainly behoove the carnes or someone to address the question of shirley barclay's involvement (as well as all the other questions that are going unanswered) .. imo this barclay woman sure seems to be exactly what some have said she is .. a "white/hippie/nuage" something or another ..

after reading what you found on barclay and her own words .. there are a lot of questions that i would like to see answered about harclay .. but that is probably for a whole other thread so as to not distract from the subject of this one .. ..

but i do think we all would like to have some answers about her involvement in EMSC, the EMSC "sundance" .. etc .. ..

[tachia]

I've been looking for the thread on myspace where Ben and Cat both explained all those answers.  It was also one that Tachia Hawk posted in and defended the Carnes in.  I want to say it was through Fools Crow but can not answer for the Carnes.  Rattlebone, do you remember the groups that was posted in.  I am hoping it wasn't brightstars group because she would have deleted it with her last profile on myspace.

yvette ..

the only other thread on this subject was indeed in brights group in myspace .. at the same time that dani began her thread in here, in april 08, she also began one in brights group .. the two threads were going on simultaneously .. and yes at that time i was defending the carnes, and as you know, i have since retracted my previous support of them, their organization etc ..

that group was deleted when bright deleted her profile from myspace .. i can say though that ben never posted in brights myspace group .. cat did and others too, but not ben .. i know this because i was in their home when all of that was going back in april .. as was stated, by myself and others, at that time ben was working in pueblo and  had no internet access, he was only able to go home for the weekend and make a couple of posts in here ..nothing more ..  that whole thread in brights group was merely "typical" of myspace (flaming etc)..  i saw no answers to any questions in there ..

what do you mean "i want to say it was through Fools Crow"? .. to which question is that an "answer" to?? .. i am confused lol .. sorry, i do not understand what your saying is all ..
 
i believe that your right yvette .. you nor anyone else can answer for the carnes .. i felt that way back in april as well, and stated such .. as a matter of fact ben said the same thing, that he would prefer to answer for himself .. .. .. when any of us attempt to answer for someone else it merely muddles everything, and often makes things worse rather than better .. ..

cat was very quick last april to respond, as was ben when he was able to .. i do not understand why they cannot do so again, you know? .. it would best if they were to answer for themselves rather than all of this innuendo etc ..  ..

[tachia]

I do remember this post by Kenny and when there was discussion on the myspace board about it.  after he made this post and allegations based on what someone else had told him, he was told of the money situation, the personal reasons for that person telling a one sided story and then he retracted a bit stating that he really didn't know Walks personally.  So based on some of his accusations against Ben, they came from a man he didn't know.  One Who is not well liked or trusted and has personal issues with Ben.  The same man who told lies about me in that very same thread.  Lies that can be proven false.

If anyone wants me to find the link to that thread so that they can read it themselves, just let me know.  I know that this board is not for the personal issues between people so I won't post it here, but it does show Kenny retracting his association with Walks, who gave him mis information.

yvette .. i for one, would like for you to verify this "information" as please .. give a link to where Kenny posted any sort of  "retraction" .. .. i also remember the discussion your referring to,  if i remember correctly it was yet another myspace flame war .. this time against Kenny (and others) and some very ugly things were said about Kenny .. i do not remember seeing Kenny himself post at all .. actually i have never seen Kenny post in any group, not even this one .. if you cannot back this bit of supposed "knowledge" up with a link to where it was said by Kenny, then all you are doing is blowing  smoke and attempting to plant seeds of doubt that are unfounded in the minds of others .. .. .. .. ..

i do not care about the personal issues that you have with others .. i ONLY care about facts and the truth of what you are attempting to say about Kenny in regards to this thread and this topic .. .. so please do not go off on a personal rant again .. thank you