Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council

[frederica]

Take it else where.  This has gone from absurb to ridiculious.  Your are sure not helping anyone.  Because you people do not like each other has not a thing to do with Ben and sure doesn't help him.

[Rattlebone]

Take it else where.  This has gone from absurb to ridiculious.  Your are sure not helping anyone.  Because you people do not like each other has not a thing to do with Ben and sure doesn't help him.

  Well when a person uses him allowing so called "PODIA" people in the EMC as part of the research/evidence to show he is bad, shouldn't it be pointed out that the person making that accusation themselves is a more then likely a PODIA themselves?

 That is like an exploiter calling another person one IMO.

[frederica]

Take it to MY Space or PM. 

[Moma_porcupine]

Rattlebone

i don't think the concern is just people who have some distant Native descent. It's when people of distant descent think it's OK to remove cultural traditons outside of the context of the whole culture that creates a lot of problems. Often the people who do this really mean well and they aren't bad people. It just is too big of a job for anyone to do without a lot of very knowledgable support. My own belief and experience is that if ceremonies are traditional ceremonies they only stay healthy when practiced within a deeply rooted community where there is many leaders and Elders and the general population has enough knowledge of whats culturally normal to keep people from going off the deep end . The problem is non natives and PODIAs can't perform the function a real indigenous community . So unless Tachia and Walks are performing ceremonies outside of the context of a strong community or giving support and encouragement to someone else who is doing this , i don't see that is matters what their BQ is or isn't.

[Rattlebone]

Rattlebone

i don't think the concern is just people who have some distant Native descent. It's when people of distant descent think it's OK to remove cultural traditons outside of the context of the whole culture that creates a lot of problems. Often the people who do this really mean well and they aren't bad people. It just is too big of a job for anyone to do without a lot of very knowledgable support. My own belief and experience is that if ceremonies are traditional ceremonies they only stay healthy when practiced within a deeply rooted community where there is many leaders and Elders and the general population has enough knowledge of whats culturally normal to keep people from going off the deep end . The problem is non natives and PODIAs can't perform the function a real indigenous community . So unless Tachia and Walks are performing ceremonies outside of the context of a strong community to give then support, i don't see that is matters what their BQ is or isn't.

  I understand what you are saying and agree with you here.

 If others would take the time to explain things just a little as you have above then I would not have the objections I do to things.

 I have seen a lot of blanket statements made here, and done so without even the little bit of explanation you have done here, which was a very good one.

 Since this research being done is supposed to be done for the benefit of the community, and to be done so without falsely accusing the innocent, then I feel that explanations such has your should be given. This should done instead of the statement I objected to, which I feel was  misleading.


 

[bls926]

Take it else where.  This has gone from absurb to ridiculious.  Your are sure not helping anyone.  Because you people do not like each other has not a thing to do with Ben and sure doesn't help him.

  Well when a person uses him allowing so called "PODIA" people in the EMC as part of the research/evidence to show he is bad, shouldn't it be pointed out that the person making that accusation themselves is a more then likely a PODIA themselves?

 That is like an exploiter calling another person one IMO.

I don't think it's PODIA's that anyone is objecting to. It's the acceptance of new agers, twinkies, and bliss bunnies that most find objectionable.


I've stayed off this thread; I've tried to remain neutral.

Remaining quiet is getting increasingly more difficult. The flaming has turned what was a few simple questions, asked with respect, into a disaster. Y'all may think you're supporting Ben and Eagle Mountain, but you'd be wrong. As Al said earlier, you've made it look like Ben has something to hide. Sad thing is, most of y'all have never met Ben or Cat; you only know them from the internet. Y'all might want to open your ears and eyes, close your mouth, and learn something.

Remaining neutral is getting more and more difficult as well. I have opened my ears and eyes, kept my mouth closed, and have learned a few things. I hate to say this, but usually only the guilty refuse to answer questions. Ben, prove me wrong.

[frederica]

I can tell you this, no one wants to discuss the issues the feeling is it will just result in more flaming and attacks.  So it has mostly been a stale mate of verbal shots.  Everyone knows what the questions are.  They have been repeated more time than I can count.  People need to put their personal agendas aside.

[tachia]

Rattlebone

i don't think the concern is just people who have some distant Native descent. It's when people of distant descent think it's OK to remove cultural traditons outside of the context of the whole culture that creates a lot of problems. Often the people who do this really mean well and they aren't bad people. It just is too big of a job for anyone to do without a lot of very knowledgable support. My own belief and experience is that if ceremonies are traditional ceremonies they only stay healthy when practiced within a deeply rooted community where there is many leaders and Elders and the general population has enough knowledge of whats culturally normal to keep people from going off the deep end . The problem is non natives and PODIAs can't perform the function a real indigenous community . So unless Tachia and Walks are performing ceremonies outside of the context of a strong community or giving support and encouragement to someone else who is doing this , i don't see that is matters what their BQ is or isn't.

thanks moma .. you explained  it quite well .. .. i, if course, agree, "if ceremonies are traditional ceremonies they only stay healthy when practiced within a deeply rooted community where there is many leaders and Elders and the general population has enough knowledge of whats culturally normal to keep people from going off the deep end " .. well said .. ..

i am not performing any ceremonies, i do not have a non-profit "spiritual" organization that asks for "donations .. i am not in any way claiming to be some sort of spiritual leader, chief, etc .. i have no long list of "titles" of any kind, i am just a common woman .. that is pretty obvious .. these people  keep trying to deflect the attention off of the carnes and onto myself and others .. i think that we all are wondering as to the whys of that particular tactic .. as frederica said, it is not helping at all .. my BQ is no ones business, if i were engaging in some sort of questionable "activity" that others had "concerns" about, then it would be conceivable that BQ would be questioned .. i will just say that poor rattles *guess* of 1/4 is quite a bit lower than my actual BQ.. lol ..
and thanks to frederica for once again saying to "take it elsewhere" .. if anyone has a problem with me, they should talk to me about it .. not bring it up in a thread where it has no relevance .. have questions, message me about them .. .. .. .. ..

[tachia]

I can tell you this, no one wants to discuss the issues the feeling is it will just result in more flaming and attacks.  So it has mostly been a stale mate of verbal shots.  Everyone knows what the questions are.  They have been repeated more time than I can count.  People need to put their personal agendas aside.

your right frederica .. a lot of people are reluctant to even post in this thread .. they feel they will just be attacked by the flamers and the topic deflected and derailed, again .. .. it is difficult for this thread to even become an intelligent discussion of the subject because of this aspect .. .. and it NEEDS to be an intelligent discussion, not their flame war .. we are all quite familiar with the tactic they are using to deflect .. attack the people questioning .. .. we ALL have a right to question things! .. not only a right but a responsibility to do so! .. .. as has been said MANY times in here .. all we want ins the truth, whatever  that truth is .. is that so hard to understand .. .. as mike, yvette, et al quite obviously have nothing of value to add, other than flaming those asking the questions, then perhaps they should be barred from posting in this thread  .. then perhaps people that actually do have something of value to add would not be so reluctant to post .. jmho .. .. ... ..

[Rattlebone]

I can tell you this, no one wants to discuss the issues the feeling is it will just result in more flaming and attacks.  So it has mostly been a stale mate of verbal shots.  Everyone knows what the questions are.  They have been repeated more time than I can count.  People need to put their personal agendas aside.

your right frederica .. a lot of people are reluctant to even post in this thread .. they feel they will just be attacked by the flamers and the topic deflected and derailed, again .. .. it is difficult for this thread to even become an intelligent discussion of the subject because of this aspect .. .. and it NEEDS to be an intelligent discussion, not their flame war .. we are all quite familiar with the tactic they are using to deflect .. attack the people questioning .. .. we ALL have a right to question things! .. not only a right but a responsibility to do so! .. .. as has been said MANY times in here .. all we want ins the truth, whatever  that truth is .. is that so hard to understand .. .. as mike, yvette, et al quite obviously have nothing of value to add, other than flaming those asking the questions, then perhaps they should be barred from posting in this thread  .. then perhaps people that actually do have something of value to add would not be so reluctant to post .. jmho .. .. ... ..

  So basically what you are saying in this post is that you have the right to ask questions and nobody else does.

 I have not flamed  in this thread since I was warned not to do so by Dr. Al and Federica. Since given that warning I have done a pretty good job at following their requests as I have not recieved any more warnings, and nor have they even edited any of my posts as of lately.

 What I want to see in this little investigation is fairness across the board, and when I reach for it I am told I am flaming or derailing things.

 You seem to think that it is okay for you to question people, and their ancestry in regards to this issue. You even think it is okay for you to bring up what happens in other places, but then cry foul when it happens to you, and the rest of us get edited.

 Name one instance as of lately that I have flamed anyone? All I have done is made statements and asked questions. Nothing I have said in the last few days has amounted to flaming whatsoever.


 If this place is the honorable place that the moderators claim it is, then it should allow the voices and concerns of both parties be expressed as long as they are done so respectfully.

 It should also allow the both sides to question each other so that is not one sided like some kangaroo court.
 
 

[frederica]

Rattle, I don't know how to make this any more clear.  It's been cited several times in different places.  It's not about your feelings of another person.  It's not about BQ.  It's about the questions concerning possible misuse of Ceremonies, involvement of nuagers in the same, and concerns over permission to do the Ceremonies, and land use.  I have yet to see how personal attacks on each other solve the problem.  And if you don't think  constantly trying to point out what you consider a person's weakness not a personal attack, you need to think about it.  Cause both sides are doing it.  And it is a form of flaming.  Now can we please get to the issues at hand and drop the personal agendas.  And that goes for everybody, not just Rattle.

[918ndnOkie]

Rattlebone

i don't think the concern is just people who have some distant Native descent. It's when people of distant descent think it's OK to remove cultural traditons outside of the context of the whole culture that creates a lot of problems. Often the people who do this really mean well and they aren't bad people. It just is too big of a job for anyone to do without a lot of very knowledgable support. My own belief and experience is that if ceremonies are traditional ceremonies they only stay healthy when practiced within a deeply rooted community where there is many leaders and Elders and the general population has enough knowledge of whats culturally normal to keep people from going off the deep end . The problem is non natives and PODIAs can't perform the function a real indigenous community . So unless Tachia and Walks are performing ceremonies outside of the context of a strong community or giving support and encouragement to someone else who is doing this , i don't see that is matters what their BQ is or isn't.

thanks moma .. you explained  it quite well .. .. i, if course, agree, "if ceremonies are traditional ceremonies they only stay healthy when practiced within a deeply rooted community where there is many leaders and Elders and the general population has enough knowledge of whats culturally normal to keep people from going off the deep end " .. well said .. ..

i am not performing any ceremonies, i do not have a non-profit "spiritual" organization that asks for "donations .. i am not in any way claiming to be some sort of spiritual leader, chief, etc .. i have no long list of "titles" of any kind, i am just a common woman .. that is pretty obvious .. these people  keep trying to deflect the attention off of the carnes and onto myself and others .. i think that we all are wondering as to the whys of that particular tactic .. as frederica said, it is not helping at all .. my BQ is no ones business, if i were engaging in some sort of questionable "activity" that others had "concerns" about, then it would be conceivable that BQ would be questioned .. i will just say that poor rattles *guess* of 1/4 is quite a bit lower than my actual BQ.. lol ..
and thanks to frederica for once again saying to "take it elsewhere" .. if anyone has a problem with me, they should talk to me about it .. not bring it up in a thread where it has no relevance .. have questions, message me about them .. .. .. .. ..

You're cherokee right? like Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma?

[918ndnOkie]

Rattle, I don't know how to make this any more clear.  It's been cited several times in different places.  It's not about your feelings of another person.  It's not about BQ.  It's about the questions concerning possible misuse of Ceremonies, involvement of nuagers in the same, and concerns over permission to do the Ceremonies, and land use.  I have yet to see how personal attacks on each other solve the problem.  And if you don't think  constantly trying to point out what you consider a person's weakness not a personal attack, you need to think about it.  Cause both sides are doing it.  And it is a form of flaming.  Now can we please get to the issues at hand and drop the personal agendas.  And that goes for everybody, not just Rattle.

I dont think it should ever be about this bullshit idea of Blood Quantum...BUT It should be about people who are not enrolled with any federally recognized tribe going around and calling BS on natives or non natives selling or exploiting ceremonies....that in itself is kinda funny.

When a native sells a ceremony then the ENROLLED Native Community should say something about it...if not...then leave it be...moreso the Nation that that ceremony is sacred to should be saying something.

I fortunately dont have any people going and "selling tickets" to corn dance or anything, and for the most part us NE Okie skins keep to ourselves with stomps and such, there are occasional demonstrations, but its like a movie teaser, it lacks the meat and potatoes....

ohwell...i find it funny that there are certain people in here claiming to be what they are not

however...i will chose to remain a watchful bystander

[frederica]

When a native sells a ceremony then the ENROLLED Native Community should say something about it...if not...then leave it be...moreso the Nation that that ceremony is sacred to should be saying something.
[/quote]                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe that is what is trying to be accomplished.  Since some of the basic complaints came from "enrolled" members.  What we are trying to avoid is the personal opinions, agendas, verbal shots from people that has nothing to do with the subject.  And your right if you are not directly involved let it be.

[Yawaywa Shun]

When a native sells a ceremony then the ENROLLED Native Community should say something about it...if not...then leave it be...moreso the Nation that that ceremony is sacred to should be saying something.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe that is what is trying to be accomplished.  Since some of the basic complaints came from "enrolled" members.  What we are trying to avoid is the personal opinions, agendas, verbal shots from people that has nothing to do with the subject.  And your right if you are not directly involved let it be.
[/quote]

And where are these members who made the complaints? [lies] [Numerous attempts to sidetrack] [Personal insults and innuendos]

If this guy is doing something wrong then it will come out. [More lies] [Numerous personal attacks and racist insults] Anyways good day to you all.


[Al's note- Yet more sidetracks and personal attacks, this time from a Kris Calderon, who did not even have the courtesy to introduce themselves but launched a series of vicous attacks with the very first post in here. Again, you are not doing Carnes any favors. You only hurt him and make him and EMC look guilty.]