Author Topic: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council  (Read 198636 times)

frederica

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2009, 10:52:25 pm »
No problem, and no disrespect meant.  Thanks.

Offline Vuyeed

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2009, 11:43:05 pm »
 Ben and Cat are being bullied into doing what Walks wants and because they aren't Walks is bring HIS personal issues into this thread. Why can one group slander Ben and Cat and others who defend them be said to be bringing "personal issues" in here? All I am saying is take what he and his friends say about Ben and Cat Carnes with a grain of salt, because there is more to it than what you are being fed here. Tachia is a good friend of Walks as well so letting her be the voice of authority on this should be moot as well.

[Al's note: Everything not relevant to the issue of Carnes was removed, as was a subsequent irrelevant rant. Your choice is simple. Stay on topic, leave, or get kicked out for repeated spam.

It also would be of great help if you actually provide proof of your claims, or at least not contradict yourself by claiming A) Carnes is being bullied B) OK, he's being bullied but it isn't working.

A last point, there is no uneven treatment. You are simply slower to listen than the others.]
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 11:01:05 am by educatedindian »

frederica

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2009, 02:27:48 am »
This was a clean thread on Ben Carnes.  Now if they have issues with Ben that are not personal, they are welcome to put these up as long as they can validate them.  And I am not talking about just borrowing money.  If you have good things to say about Ben Carnes, that is all good also.  But it is not a forum to just come in and attack the attacker.  If people can stick to the subject of the thread fine, if all it amounts to is challenges and threats and personal matters, it won't work.  People will have to deal with Walk and his threats on their own as it happens.  If he came in here and did the same, we would have to deal with the problem.

Offline mamaduck33

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #78 on: February 17, 2009, 02:02:09 am »
I have proof that Walks is not being completely honest about the money issue and that he is telling a very one sided story.  I know this because I was involved with him at the time.  That is a personal issue between him and the Carnes that they should work out privately and not on this very public board.  I am also irritated to see Tachia trying to pull the drama back up.  You don't like the Carnes...fine.  Then don't like them.  But what evidence do you have that is not personal that is proof of him being a fraud?  None, that we have seen so far.  Swallow your pride and keep your drama and personal issues to yourself please.

Eagle Feather

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #79 on: February 17, 2009, 04:33:33 am »
mama duck, it would do you well to go back and read this thread thoroughly.........zoi lightfoot is the one that brot this thred back from the ded.   As far as the money issue goes, IMHO it goes toward honesty, integrity, bein trust worthy, etc for someon claiming to be a spritul leader all of those wuld be importnt.  taking money and exploitrs go hand and hand yanno.  it appears that you mamduck are here for the sole puppose of discrediting walks, as ahs been said "please stay on topic".  now do you have anything to say about Ben carnes and ealge mtn?? 


frederica

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #80 on: February 17, 2009, 04:38:24 am »
  That is a personal issue between him and the Carnes that they should work out privately and not on this very public board.
    This subject died yesterday, let it lie.

Offline mamaduck33

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #81 on: February 17, 2009, 11:45:30 am »
mama duck, it would do you well to go back and read this thread thoroughly.........zoi lightfoot is the one that brot this thred back from the ded.   As far as the money issue goes, IMHO it goes toward honesty, integrity, bein trust worthy, etc for someon claiming to be a spritul leader all of those wuld be importnt.  taking money and exploitrs go hand and hand yanno.  it appears that you mamduck are here for the sole puppose of discrediting walks, as ahs been said "please stay on topic".  now do you have anything to say about Ben carnes and ealge mtn?? 



I don't know you but I do know Walks In the real, and well. Wouldn't doubt that you are him.  No one took money from walks.  You have no idea idea what the situation was.  It had nothing to do with exploiting anyone.  I do discredit walks when he is not being completely honest.  Tachia in fact did start this thread back up when she came back to retract her original support for her personal reasons.  If Ben is an exploiter...than post it up.  Lets see it.  I wan't to see proof..not bs over personal issues and whether someone paid a debt back to a friend on time and all at once.  That is a personal issue and not one that should be discussed on a public board.   I am very much on topic with this and waiting patiently for someone to show some actual evidence of Ben exploiting our culture.

Eagle Feather

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #82 on: February 17, 2009, 01:14:29 pm »
for petes sake - this thred was ded from arpil to november, tachia was NOT the one that revived it = otheres did mama.  you need to take your drama somewhere else.   exploitin your culture??  excuse me, are you lakota??  seems to me a choctaw "chief" running a lakota cermony called a "sundance" and askin for donations to support it in ute country is questionble.  chiefytiger stated kenny frost (a well knwn ute leadr) was slamming ben carnes about it when he (chiefytiger) brought this thread bavck up innovembr 2008.  members of myspace saw that go down as well as cat carnes agree on a forum of myspace that ben did not pay walks backmoney owed. so it isn't relly a lie when cat herslf has stated in public forums morethan once, they didn't pay (over 1500) the money back to wwalks.   again a person claimin to be a spirtul leader shuld be acting in a manner above that - taking moneythen not returning calls or repeated e-mails and messges from the prson that loned it is not cool.  period.   

Offline Rattlebone

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #83 on: February 17, 2009, 05:34:00 pm »
Quote
his thred was ded from arpil to november, tachia was NOT the one that revived it =
 

 Actually you are twisting things here to suite whatever your agenda is for posting this.  Though ChiefyTiger did post in this thread in November 2008 as you have stated, what brought this thread alive in more recent times is Tachia Hawk retracting what she had said last year in this thread.

 If you will also notice in that posting, Tachia did mention something to the effect that she was also speaking on behalf of another individual. That is actually one of the main reasons both her and walks are here in this thread, and that is to support that other person in what is actually a personal feud for personal reasons.

I myself have abided by the wishes of Educated Indian and Federicka and have left my personal issues out of this thread. However I do feel that you are secretly here on behalf of Tachia, Walks, and that person I won't name.

 So what I feel you are doing when you tell Mama duck to leave her drama out of this thread, is actually doing the exact same thing. Your very mention of what was MY Thread over on myspace tells me this.

 So I will agree with the moderators of this site and say that personal drama should be left off of this site. With that in mind I do believe you should do the same, and I know that you are not and are actually trying to pretend you are.

Who are you anyways??? What name do you go by on myspace...why don't you tell us all so it can be known just where exactly you are coming from on this issue?
 
 
Quote
exploitin your culture??  excuse me, are you lakota??
   

 Excuse me, are you Lakota? Why don't you tell us what people you are from. If a Choctaw person is not supposed to be speaking on this matter, then no other people other then Lakota and Ute should be then, correct?

 Furthermore it is my understanding that Ben was given permission to do what he does by Lakota elders. So do you or anyone else some how have more right to say something in regards to this then a Lakota elder?

Quote
chiefytiger stated kenny frost (a well knwn ute leadr) was slamming ben carnes about it when he (chiefytiger) brought this thread bavck up innovembr 2008. 


 He and a few other people were also stating how Kenny Frost was a womanizer and things of that nature. So if somebody says it going by your logic, since you are supporting every bad statement made here about Ben Carnes; then is surely must be true right?

 So why would you overlook this flaw in Kenny Frost as a leader and spiritual leader, and yet not overlook that fact that Ben supposedly has not paid back money he borrowed from somebody?

 The simple fact is that Ben like Kenny Frost as some have said of Kenny Frost is a human and nothing more, regardless of what kind of leader he is or is not. Bottom line is that all humans no matter how good or bad they are, or what they do in their lives for themselves or others will make mistakes.

 So it seems to me, that you are looking at things from a romanticized viewpoint of leaders/spiritual leaders, and thinking that they would never make mistakes.



Quote
members of myspace saw that go down as well as cat carnes agree on a forum of myspace that ben did not pay walks backmoney owed.



 To repeat what I have said before, you are twisting words here into half truths and falsehoods. You are speaking of a thread I actually started, and I do believe you know that don't you.

 So once again provide proof of what you are saying, or admit you are taking things out of context and then drop this personal issue you have.

 Once again you are twisting things said into falsehoods to fit your agenda. If I remember correctly it was said they intended to pay or something of that nature. Just because Walks is claiming he tried calling them etc, that does not make things true. I mean if worst comes to worst the man does know where they live....he has stayed at their home before.

If I am wrong on this then bring back something in which would prove otherwise. If not then you are just bringing in a personal issue that the rest of us are agreeing to drop, or that you are telling mama duck to drop.




Quote
so it isn't relly a lie when cat herslf has stated in public forums morethan once, they didn't pay (over 1500) the money back to wwalks.
   

 Once again you are putting things out of context. Go read those statements there again.


Quote
again a person claimin to be a spirtul leader shuld be acting in a manner above that - taking moneythen not returning calls or repeated e-mails and messges from the prson that loned it is not cool.  period.   

 To once again repeat myself. Look at my earlier above when I pointed out some of said Kenny was a womanizer. Now I am not saying that I believe it or not, because I simply do not know the man or anything about him. However since others have said it, and im sure you have read it; you are guilty of using double standards here, and that is why I think you are just as guilty as bringing a personal issue here as you claim mama duck is.

Just in your case I think that you are trying to hide it.



 EducatedIndian and Federicka have asked that all of us here leave personal grudges out of this thread and their site. I have even been told this in private by one of them.

So I think everyone should abide by that and leave all of that out of this thread.

 The money issue was a personal thing, and should not be brought to this site.

If people can not bring proof that Ben is an exploiter, which is the purpose of this site; then they should say nothing at all until they can provide proof.

Once again I do apologize for my part in bringing things here that should not have been. I just want the truth to be told about everyone and the situation at hand if they are going to speak on things and about things like they have.

When somebody points a figure they should always remember they have three pointing back at them, especially when they bring out personal information that has nothing to do with the issue at hand and try to look like angels when they do the finger pointing.


Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #84 on: February 17, 2009, 06:56:49 pm »
Ok , I am going to wade in here and make a few observations, based on nothing more than what I am reading here....

1. Ben Carnes is interested in starting a Spiritual community.

2. He has some very active online supporters.

3. Some personal allegations were made against Walks and Ben Carnes was criticized for his choice of friends.

1. Walks was a strong supporter of Ben Carnes and Ben Carnes was a strong supporter of Walks

5.Now Walks is accusing Ben Carnes of not repaying money he borrowed.  I think we all have friends who have done the same thing. Some people are saying this is a personal issue that does not belong in a discussion in NAFPS.

6. People are saying this is more than a personal issue because Ben Carnes is a Spiritual leader and as such he must show better behavior than regular people. 

7. A couple of the people who strongly supported him in April felt they needed to retract their support. No reasons were given. No personal grievances were aired in public.   

8. Some of Ben Carnes supporters are saying that the fact some of Ben's former supporters  have retracted their support is a "personal Issue" and it is being suggested they are somehow wrong for retracting their previous support.

So here is my own observation based just on the facts as i read them here.

It looks like you all are really an unstable bunch.

With so many shifting loyalties and the inability to sort things out before they erupt into an internet flame war, I really have to wonder if any of you are really mature enough to form a stable Spiritual community?   

Secondly, if people who formally supported Ben want to retract that support for whatever reason, personal - or to do with bigger issues, that is entirely their right. They don't have to give any reasons as long as what they DO say is true, and verifiable. When you all begin trying to discredit someone or make them guilty of some kind of personal vendetta, just because they retracted former support, you all begin sounding more like a cult than a community based on traditional values.

I'm not sure why this thread got moved back into research needed, but at this point, the only thing that has made me skeptical of Ben Carnes is the behavior of his followers.

Maybe it isn't fair to think he is somehow responsible for that.

When you have a myspace page which is supposed to be connected to some sort of Spiritual Council - as he has - I can see it could be hard to know who was connecting to you, or what they might do with what was shared.

Enough said . I really have next to no clue what I am talking about here. But what I am saying seems pretty obvious ...
   
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 06:58:54 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Rattlebone

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #85 on: February 17, 2009, 07:10:53 pm »

Maybe it isn't fair to think he is somehow responsible for that.

[/quote]


 No it is not fair because there are things we are being told not to speak about here, so the full story has not come out.

Offline Vuyeed

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2009, 03:54:53 pm »
I am a follower of no one...I see an injustice being done so I speak up. If someone was doing it to anyone else I would do the same. I don't care who they are or what the believe in.

Maybe it is my over developed sense of fair play, but holy crap people (mods) sure want to stick up for Walks the first time someone bags on him...wish Ben got the same treatment, eh?

I apologize to the mods if they feel we invaded this board to cause trouble...my beef has to with someone being smeared without just cause.

Offline Cetan

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2009, 05:30:28 pm »
I do not know Ben Carnes but I do know he is part of the Leonard Peltier defense committee and this is what Leonard Peltier said in a statement on 1/31/2009

I am proud of the brother’s & sisters, the Elder’s and my family who make up the committee; they have all personally sacrificed more than many people may ever know. It is humbling when I hear about the difficulties they have had due to being associated with me, but they do not quit. They are putting in many hours of their lives that they could be spending with their own families, but I hear they are on the phones talking to people, writing letters, and networking through the computers. They have been criticized by a few people and have attempted to create divisions within the committee through spreading accusations about them. So let me say this, I know the people I have invited to serve on my committee, and I’ve known most of them for years. A couple of them are my Sun Dance brothers and I have entrusted my life in their abilities and their commitment to bring about my freedom.
The decision I have made to place them in their positions of responsibility is mine, not the critics. I ask all my supporters to ignore those who would have you waste your time listening to or reading petty gossip based upon jealousy or personal dislike. These are activities that the FBI uses to destroy a movement, and they are not the Indian way of doing things. So we need to be aware that those who are bad-mouthing my committee, and talking behind their backs to smear them, may be infiltrators sent by the feds to tear down the committee. Watch out for those people and make some distance from them.

Offline tachia

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2009, 07:15:13 pm »
I do not know Ben Carnes but I do know he is part of the Leonard Peltier defense committee and this is what Leonard Peltier said in a statement on 1/31/2009

I am proud of the brother’s & sisters, the Elder’s and my family who make up the committee; they have all personally sacrificed more than many people may ever know. It is humbling when I hear about the difficulties they have had due to being associated with me, but they do not quit. They are putting in many hours of their lives that they could be spending with their own families, but I hear they are on the phones talking to people, writing letters, and networking through the computers. They have been criticized by a few people and have attempted to create divisions within the committee through spreading accusations about them. So let me say this, I know the people I have invited to serve on my committee, and I’ve known most of them for years. A couple of them are my Sun Dance brothers and I have entrusted my life in their abilities and their commitment to bring about my freedom.
The decision I have made to place them in their positions of responsibility is mine, not the critics. I ask all my supporters to ignore those who would have you waste your time listening to or reading petty gossip based upon jealousy or personal dislike. These are activities that the FBI uses to destroy a movement, and they are not the Indian way of doing things. So we need to be aware that those who are bad-mouthing my committee, and talking behind their backs to smear them, may be infiltrators sent by the feds to tear down the committee. Watch out for those people and make some distance from them.


i am dealing with the passing of a brother so i am not going to get into this ..
but cetan,  it might be worthwhile to ask some questions as to WHO is the "author" of what you just quoted .. jacketing is serious, not a game as some seem to believe .. .. when has LP "EVER" jacketed anyone????? ... .. there are a great number of people who do know the answer on WHO was the author .. all i will say is that is was NOT written by LP .. .. now let the attacks on me begin and the cards fall where they may .. i am grieving and tired of keeping silent and i cannot honour this brother by remaining silent on the many things he was going to speak out about .. .. if we do not speak up about corruption then we are worthless .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

Offline Cetan

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #89 on: February 18, 2009, 08:15:02 pm »
this was part of a statement made by Leonard Peltier on 1/31/09 when he was transferred back to Lewisburg; I received multiple copies both from LP Defense Committee and a AIM list. Here is the statement in it's entirety



I want to thank each and everyone of you for your efforts in my urgent time of need, you cannot imagine how much my spirit has been lifted from the cards and letters, the phone calls and how everyone kept up the pressure. My gratitude is really more than I can express.
My return to Lewisburg was met like a hero’s welcome, and many people came to assure me of my safety there. It is so ironic that the prisoners in a federal maximum-security prison can guarantee my safety, but the Bureau of Prisons will not. I did not say, “cannot”, but “will not” do so. You have to remember the BOP is a little brother to the FBI and they came from an illegitimate mother called the JUST-US (Justice) Department.

Do I sound a little angry? Well, I am angry that many of my friends have died in assuring my survival while I’ve been in prison. All the men who were involved in my escape at Lompoc, all died mysteriously soon after: Dallas Thundershield at Lompoc, Bobby Garcia at Terre Haute, and Rocky Duenas, whose body was never recovered. And Standing Deer, he gave away his life when he revealed the assassination plot against me. He lived under the shadow of death for years, waiting to be killed for defying the government, until he was eventually paroled to Texas. He was murdered soon after the same person who contracted him to have me assassinated warned him about his involvement with my campaign. Surviving this attack brought back memories of those losses, and it is with tears of more gratitude in my eyes and in my heart that no one died this time. I don’t ever want to lose another brother in
protecting me; a human life is precious and important.

I know in other countries, prisoners who have been held by their government have been placed in house arrest after they have attained international support as I have. If the BOP cannot guarantee my safety to the extent the prisoners here can, then I demand to be returned to my nation, Turtle Mountain, where I can be assured of my safety!
Turtle Mountain has issued a resolution to transfer me into their custody, and they have asked to meet with Obama on a nation-to-nation basis. This has to happen and it will when a lot of energy is placed behind it. In the past 18 days your efforts brought me out of the hole and to where there is a measure of safety.

The FBI has said that I will never leave prison alive, and we should not accept that as an idle threat. There have been a few times that my life was targeted by the FBI in the 33 years since my capture, and each of those who have helped me to survive are now dead. The transfer and attack at Canaan is just a warning to me of what is to come. The warden’s know of the psychological make-up of their inmate population in their prison, and they clearly knew that placing someone who is well known, as I am, with connections to many famous people and at my age, I would be subject to predatory attacks. This was deliberate by the BOP, and as far as the motivation for the attack, it could have been ordered by any prison official at the request of the FBI, or someone trying to curry favor from the feds. It could have also been a tactic to beat me into submission for purposes of extortion or
something as stupid as trying to make a reputation.

We know they are afraid and Trimbach’s smear letter support that. They see pressure, in the form of your letters and calls, growing and they know that my committee has been tirelessly developing plans to set up a wave of activity. The FBI is now afraid that they will fail to keep me falsely imprisoned. We are becoming stronger and we must keep building our network to succeed.

I am proud of the brother’s & sisters, the Elder’s and my family who make up the committee; they have all personally sacrificed more than many people may ever know. It is humbling when I hear about the difficulties they have had due to being associated with me, but they do not quit. They are putting in many hours of their lives that they could be spending with their own families, but I hear they are on the phones talking to people, writing letters, and networking through the computers. They have been criticized by a few people and have attempted to create divisions within the committee through spreading accusations about them. So let me say this, I know the people I have invited to serve on my committee, and I’ve known most of them for years. A couple of them are my Sun Dance brothers and I have entrusted my life in their abilities and their commitment to bring about my freedom.
The decision I have made to place them in their positions of responsibility is mine, not the critics. I ask all my supporters to ignore those who would have you waste your time listening to or reading petty gossip based upon jealousy or personal dislike. These are activities that the FBI uses to destroy a movement, and they are not the Indian way of doing things. So we need to be aware that those who are bad-mouthing my committee, and talking behind their backs to smear them, may be infiltrators sent by the feds to tear down the committee. Watch out for those people and make some distance from them.

I am also asking all of my supporters and allies to follow the directions of the committee when the plans and strategies are presented at the Feb. 6th event in Boulder, CO. It had begun as an educational event and now it will be a very important event because of everything that has happened recently. We had wanted to release it when Obama was sworn in, but my transfer placed it on hold. I am a believer that nothing happens by accident or coincidence. It all happens for a reason, and it feels as if things are coming together the way they should. It is significant that an intense campaign will be begin after 33 years in captivity and with a newly elected President who could be receptive to my clemency appeal in office.
We will be making our message stronger in what we do and in how we will do it. I cannot stress how important it will be to increase our numbers after this event because the committee members, spokespersons, and their families will be making more personal sacrifices to help increase awareness. They’ll need your support in organizing other events and networking in your area.

Again, I want to thank everyone who wrote, called and emailed. My hand in appreciation is extended to those who have held rallies and protests on my behalf to call attention to the attack on me. I also extend my gratitude to Cynthia McKinney, former congresswoman for her recent letter to President Obama urging him to free other political prisoners and myself.
In all these years, there have been so many people who have prayed for my safety and freedom from all faiths. There is power in those prayers and that is what I know will bring about my freedom. I can feel something different this time, and many others have expressed the same thought to me. So when you pray, don’t pray only for me, but the warriors of AIM who have died for our people, the victims of the “Reign of Terror” on Pine Ridge, and other victims who has suffered as we have. Pray for their families as well. They must not be forgotten and they must have justice!

In the Spirit of Crazy Horse, Dallas Thundershield, Bobby Garcia, Rocky Duenas, Standing Deer, and in The Spirit of Total Resistance,

Leonard Peltier

« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 08:16:54 pm by Cetan »