Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council

[tachia]

If people claim to be leaders of real traditions, it seems important they follow whatever is considered the correct protocol of those traditions.

So , on that premise, I have a few questions

From which Nation's Spiritual leaders did Ben learn what he needs to know to lead a Sundance? 

Does this Nation traditionally have people who are called a Sundance Chief , and within this Nation what is usually required to have the right to do this ? 

How did Ben Carnes become a Sundance Chief? Who taught him ? Who gave him permission to do this? Is the process that Ben went through what is generally required within that Nations traditions?

What other Elders support and participate in this Sundance ?

Generally speaking, within his community , who else is involved in helping Ben in his leadership role? What Elders of equal or greater authority is Ben involved with on a daily basis? 

Both Ben and his wife have answered all these questions already.

Mamaduck, I've been looking trying to see where Ben has answered these questions already , and I'm not having much luck finding it. Could you post a link to where this is located?

As a lot of people don't seem to understand why these questions get asked, I thought it might be helpful to post links to a couple of threads with some general discussions about the Protection of Ceremonies

The thread below is an interesting exploration of why protecting Lakota Ceremonies is even controversial
in the first place

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1326.0

and this thread below explores whats the harm of when these ceremonies get removed from being practiced in the context of a strong traditional community.

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1110.0

These general concerns seem to be very complex and are about a lot more than any individual, or Ben Carnes specifically ......

moma, thanks for posting this with the links so that others can see why these specific questions have need to be asked and have need to be answered, also with specifics not vague references to validity .. ..

[frederica]

I haven't seen any fact from anyone from the beginning aside from personal issues.  This is all he says and she says and a lot of hyperactivity.

[mamaduck33]

I have not come in here creating drama on any personal rant Tachia.  [Childish insult] I am trying to be helpful.  Look for the information asked for.  I did find the "What a hateful soul" thread on myspace where kenny did infact post in.  But noticed that Walks deleted one of his profiles that wipped out all of the false accusations he made and was proven a liar.  [More childish insults]

If someone wants the link to it, they can ask me for it personally.  I hope to spare people the 30 some odd pages of a drama war between you and john and everyone else.

But we are not here to prove if Kenny posted in a myspace group (which he in fact did), we are here show both sides of the accusations on Ben and get to the bottom of these accusations of fraud against him. 

[Al's note: Leave the childish insults out from now on.]

[Moma_porcupine]

All the personal comments and pushing isn't helping resolve this.

We all have personalities, personal motives, and we all sometimes don't communicate in a clear or respectful way. This message board can't fix that.

As i see it, the main question, about the Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council, the Sundance associated with it, and Ben acting as the Sundance Chief is if this has sufficent support from recognized Elders and traditional leaders.

it seems it would work better if we try and get the main question dealt with before we worry about all the details.         

[Rattlebone]

I do remember this post by Kenny and when there was discussion on the myspace board about it.  after he made this post and allegations based on what someone else had told him, he was told of the money situation, the personal reasons for that person telling a one sided story and then he retracted a bit stating that he really didn't know Walks personally.  So based on some of his accusations against Ben, they came from a man he didn't know.  One Who is not well liked or trusted and has personal issues with Ben.  The same man who told lies about me in that very same thread.  Lies that can be proven false.

If anyone wants me to find the link to that thread so that they can read it themselves, just let me know.  I know that this board is not for the personal issues between people so I won't post it here, but it does show Kenny retracting his association with Walks, who gave him mis information.

yvette .. i for one, would like for you to verify this "information" as please .. give a link to where Kenny posted any sort of  "retraction" .. .. i also remember the discussion your referring to,  if i remember correctly it was yet another myspace flame war .. this time against Kenny (and others) and some very ugly things were said about Kenny .. i do not remember seeing Kenny himself post at all .. actually i have never seen Kenny post in any group, not even this one .. if you cannot back this bit of supposed "knowledge" up with a link to where it was said by Kenny, then all you are doing is blowing  smoke and attempting to plant seeds of doubt that are unfounded in the minds of others .. .. .. .. ..

i do not care about the personal issues that you have with others .. i ONLY care about facts and the truth of what you are attempting to say about Kenny in regards to this thread and this topic .. .. so please do not go off on a personal rant again .. thank you

  You are blatantly lying here miss.

 There was no flame war against Kenny, and never was. There was in fact a blog written that was a racial attack in people who marry non Indians, and mixed bloods. Many of us believe it was in fact a blog written as an attack upon two mixed race couples, and one of those couples was the Carnes.

I pointed that blog out, and that is when your [libelous insult] buddy Walks came...[Irrelevant rant removed]

 I do know that Kenny then came to that thread and said some things, and yea we told him off as well. I don't care who Kenny Frost is, and I never will, and I will leave it at that.

[Irrelevant rant removed]
[More ranting removed] [Possible libel removed][Personal attacks removed]

[Al's note: I will not warn you anymore, RB, esp when you keep saying things that could be outright libel.]

 

[Rattlebone]

I have not come in here creating drama on any personal rant Tachia.  This would be your doing.  Look in the mirror.  I am trying to be helpful.  Look for the information asked for.  I did find the "What a hateful soul" thread on myspace where kenny did infact post in.  But noticed that Walks deleted one of his profiles that wipped out all of the false accusations he made and was proven a liar.  Very clever game you two are playing. 

If someone wants the link to it, they can ask me for it personally.  I hope to spare people the 30 some odd pages of a drama war between you and john and everyone else.

But we are not here to prove if Kenny posted in a myspace group (which he in fact did), we are here show both sides of the accusations on Ben and get to the bottom of these accusations of fraud against him.  Right?

 the hateful soul thread was indeed the thread  that I wrote,where Kenny showed up blasting Ben Carnes. A number of us had never heard of him, and didn't care who he was. We thought he was just some troll profile.

 Since that time a number of people keep saying "shame on them for flaming Kenny Frost." The truth is until that day most of us had never heard of him.

 Most of Walks's posts were deleted by myspace when his profile was deleted by myspace after I supplied evidence to them [of alleged criminal activity]

 

[educatedindian]

Several things stand out:

After we made it clear that we weren't going to be deterred by any attempts to sidetrack the questions being asked, the members and supporters of EMC became conspicuously silent, something we hadn't seen before.

Then they went back to the same old sidetrack attempts.

Virtually none of the questions have been answered, or even addressed by EMC members, other than to try and cause confusion.

Carnes is a Choctaw claiming to run a Lakota ceremony. Maybe Fools Crow said he could, maybe not. EMC members either don't know or won't say.

He is doing this on Ute land, without permission and with their opposition.

And the EMC answer? To me it's amazing and appalling at the same time:

"We don't care who Frost is, and never will."
"Maybe Frost retracted, maybe he didn't. Not sure."

I'm still waiting for someone in EMC to address Barclay being sponsored by the EMC. But somehow I doubt I'll get a straight answer.

This thread now has over 7000 views. If the EMC had just come clean right away, that amount of negative attention could have been avoided.

Not since the Catholic church tried to hide that some of its priests were molesters have I seen any religious/spiritual group go to so much trouble to try and duck responsibility.

[Rattlebone]

Several things stand out:

"We don't care who Frost is, and never will."

  Why did you change my words from "I" to "we?"

I have already stated in this thread that I am not a member of EMC and never was. Neither is Mama duck as far as I know. I am simply speaking my mind on this issue and so you should not edit my words here to say "we" because it looks like I am speaking for the Carnes and the EMC, which I am not.

 The only "we" that could be involved in my statements would have been possibly by those who flamed Kenny, and that was because most that did were under the belief that his profile was a troll and not even him. This was on top of the fact that many did not even know who he was. This "many" I speak of does not include the Carnes or the EMC either.

[educatedindian]

What exactly is your's and MD's stake in this, then? Why go to weeks of effort to go after critics of Carnes? And not just simply stating your disagreement, but in your own words "flaming." And on this thread constantly posting accusations that come close to, if not actually being, libelous. I seriously wonder if you are repeatedly trying to post libel to leave this site vulnerable to being shut down on legal grounds.

And after you answer that, how about actually answering the questions about Carnes and EMC? No more sidetracks. We've had weeks of them already.

[Rattlebone]

What exactly is your's and MD's stake in this, then? Why go to weeks of effort to go after critics of Carnes?

 Answered in private.

And not just simply stating your disagreement, but in your own words "flaming."

Answered in private




 

And on this thread constantly posting accusations that come close to, if not actually being, libelous.

  Answered in private

I seriously wonder if you are repeatedly trying to post libel to leave this site vulnerable to being shut down on legal grounds.

 Al I have been a member of your site now for over a year or something now correct? I have never posted anything on here that was questionable until now. Of course what is questionable I have answered you about in private. You and I have had some minor differences in opinion in the past, but the discussions were always constructive. If I was going to do that, I could have long ago. Of course I have not because it was not, and is still not my intention.

 As I told you in private, there are side issues here going on that I feel are valid to point out. There are also ones I can't speak about, and will not. This issue here is one I feel strongly about, and so was speaking strongly about.

[educatedindian]

Carnes has sent an email claiming this focus on him is hurting Peltier's cause.

The claim that this will hurt Peltier is nonsense. Carnes is hiding behind that cause when real issue is his proclaiming himself a sundance chief (and nobody seems to know who authorized it, if anyone, or than maybe Fools Crow, who of course is not around to say if that is true or not.)

That, plus his never asking the Utes for permission. Plus the presence of Nuagers inside EMC, and likely frauds like Barclay. These are serious issues, and Carnes and EMC need to answer them instead of hiding behind the cause of Peltier. The Carnes and friends are blowing a lot of smoke to avoid answering anything.

[zoi lightfoot]

Tell me then Al,which bit of Leonards campaign is not disrupted by the nafps witch hunts and which part of nafps do you think ANY indian peoples answer to?The "friend" whose identity you keep hidden,while they troll Peltier support claiming thier work in this group is the reason they stay anonymous?and do the cut and paste rounds of gossip and misinformation?Or the non indian woman who took acception to the fact i like Ben and have respect for him,just because she has a personal axe to grind?What bit of that are you not grasping,we have an innocent man to free and that takes a lot of focus and dedication.Ben answered all the questions previously put to him,so i fail to see why this is still a disruptive topic of conversation.And if Nafps is on form then this will be the cue for your two buddies to jump in yes?

[bls926]

While Zoi's post (made in the morning) is still here, Al's edits (made in the evening) are gone. Re-posted per Al's request.



zoi lightfoot
Offline
Posts: 136

Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #146 on: February 27, 2009, 10:00:05 AM » Quote 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tell me then Al,which bit of Leonards campaign is not disrupted by the nafps witch hunts and which part of nafps do you think ANY indian peoples answer to? [Irrelevant rant removed] and do the cut and paste rounds of gossip and misinformation?Or the non indian woman who took acception to the fact i like Ben and have respect for him [Irrelevant rant] [Childish insult],we have an innocent man to free and that takes a lot of focus and dedication.Ben answered all the questions previously put to him,so i fail to see why this is still a disruptive topic of conversation.[Childish insult and personal attack]







[Al's note: Anything off topic gets removed, especially childishness. You already know that. Grow up already.]
 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 07:10:45 PM by educatedindian »
 
 

[bls926]

Another post that went missing. Re-posted per Al's request.


educatedindian
Administrator
Offline
Posts: 2149


Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #147 on: February 27, 2009, 07:25:32 PM » Quote 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"which bit of Leonards campaign is not disrupted"

None of it is disrupted at all that I can see. None. Not a bit. Show us any evidence at all of that.

And if Carnes is hurting the cause he claims to care so much about, then let him do the right thing, which anyone else would do.

Leave.

Leave the Peltier campaign rather than hurt it by continuing to be part when there are serious questions about his conduct.

"by the nafps witch hunts"

Interesting to see you adopting Nuage tactics and terms, Zoi.

Remember that you came to NAFPS, eagerly accepted us and took part in what we did when it suited you. Only when there were serious questions as to your own claims and conduct did you suddenly change, huff and puff and refuse to answer questions, except with insults.

"and which part of nafps do you think ANY indian peoples answer to?"

Nice of you to again show your true colors and adopt the Nuage lies when it suits you.

NAFPS is probably about 80% NDN, but we don't ask anyone to "answer to us." We just ask questions and investigate when others ask us to. (In this case many people inside EMC asked us to.)

NDNs answer to their NDN community.

Carnes has set himself up a community away from other NDN communities, made up of both NDNs and white Nuagers.

Obviously Carnes and the EMC should answer to all NDN communities...

...but esp to the Utes, whose land he is using without permission.

"Ben answered all the questions previously put to him"

Pure lie. He answered none of the questions. Carnes adamantly refuses to answer questions and said so in his last email to us.
 
 

[tachia]

Carnes has sent an email claiming this focus on him is hurting Peltier's cause.

The claim that this will hurt Peltier is nonsense. Carnes is hiding behind that cause when real issue is his proclaiming himself a sundance chief (and nobody seems to know who authorized it, if anyone, or than maybe Fools Crow, who of course is not around to say if that is true or not.)

That, plus his never asking the Utes for permission. Plus the presence of Nuagers inside EMC, and likely frauds like Barclay. These are serious issues, and Carnes and EMC need to answer them instead of hiding behind the cause of Peltier. The Carnes and friends are blowing a lot of smoke to avoid answering anything.

Al ..
any chance of that email from the carnes being posted in public? ..