Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council

[tachia]

also .. i wanted to post this a few days ago .. when we all entered into some sort of twilight zone .. lol .. i was waiting to see if things would go back to normal in here .. so now i will post it .. .. make of it what you will .. .. this "plea for help" was posted as a bulletin in myspace and from what i understand, was also posted in yahoo and other places around the internet .. ..

Date: Feb 28, 2009 11:16 AM
Subject: Ben Carnes: re. from "Native American Unity"

Body: Ben Carnes: re.
from "Native American Unity"
Let's act on our name - "Native American Unity"....time to show that Unity!!?

From: messages@webs.com on behalf of nativeamericanunity@gmail.com
Sent: Sat 2/28/09 8:45 AM

Im sending this message out today...with the hopes that many of our members will act on this...that you will show the power of unity...and show the power of our Nations standing side by side together.

A brother needs our support.....he has not asked for this support....he had no idea of my sending this out...and I can only pray he will not be upset with NAU sending this out...but when I see a man who works damned hard for our/his people...I refuse to sit back and say nothing.

However...I want to make something very clear...Im NOT advising members to go to this internet group and post words of support...that would be futile and un-necessary.....Im simply asking members to show your support to Ben himself...let him know he has the support of ndn country...the support of ndn people for all he does.

Ben Carnes is a hard working...self giving Native man who is currently under attack and being questioned by a group of 'internet' people, people who seem to take pride in attacking REAL Native people...people who work hard for ndn community while they themselves hide behind a pc screen....bitching about anything that takes their fancy...without evidence....based on heresay...personal opinions and copy and pasting mis-matched so called 'evidence'....enough is enough!

Ben works VERY hard on the Leonard Peltier case....which we all know is highly important (his wife Cat is also a very hard worker for ndn people) not to mention all the many other things he partakes in....I think it's high time Native people started to stand by their own in support and NOT allow the hatred of others to damage the good reputations and hard work put forth by our people! These are GOOD PEOPLE!!
Contact Ben...show your support!
Ask how we as Native people can help!! We are called "Native American Unity!"....now's the time to act on the name! We have THOUSANDS of members here....USE YOUR VOICES!! Support this brother!

Here is just a small list of all Ben does....he is out there DOING.....he is out there giving all he can to our/his people....

.. .. at this point i cut off the original message as it is merely ben's "resume" .. just a long list of mostly unverifiable "self-promotion" of ben carnes, by ben carnes .. .. .. if anyone would like to read the "resume" of ben carnes, let me know .. i would be glad to post it, i just did not feel as if i would be serving any purpose in posting it in here .. ..

[bls926]

Native American Unity....Tsisqua....Matty Yellowboy....Juan Wild Cat Hall



I can see Ben standing in a pile of socks while more socks fall from the sky. It's raining socks of all colors, shapes, and sizes. Before long, all you can see is the top of Ben's head; he's completely covered up, surrounded by socks. Hey, they're showing their support. And you know what they say . . . Any support is good, no matter where it comes from. Yeah, right.


Thanks for posting this, Tachia.

[Walks]

Research needed?

I agree, and perhaps some of you will be more effective in finding evidence of Ben's credibility than anyone who I have spoken to or worked with have been able to.

Can anyone PROVE that Ben is any of the things he claims he is?

Was he made Sun Dance Chief in a traditionally accepted manner?

Can you prove it?

My understanding was that it came by way of Billy Tyac(sp?) but I may be mistaken there.

Can anyone confirm any of the titles he wears as some badge of honor such as the so called humanitarian award he claims to have received?

Can you prove it?

Can anyone even say for sure that he is enrolled?

There is in fact a Ben Carnes on the Choctaw rolls, however this individual is some kind of artist or author or something like that.....definitely not the Ben I know who is the subject of question here.

Can you prove it?

We are not on some kind of witch hunt here but instead merely want the truth.....what ever that is.

I know Ben and have spent much time face to face with him and have conversed extensively with him.

How many of those who have posted here in support of him can say that?

I have a lot of facts that I know are true because they came from his own mouth however there is no recorded record of it therefor were I to elaborate on that fact it would just become a he said, he said argument which can prove definitively nothing to anyone except myself, so I will not post it.

If there is ANY kind of legitimate proof of any of his claims, lets see it and put this whole issue to rest........PLEASE!!!

[Rattlebone]

Research needed?

Can anyone even say for sure that he is enrolled?

 
 Since you are not an enrolled member of any tribe, and I believe have no proof of being native; why is this an issue that you are bringing up?

 In the last few years when you and I have been at both odds and on good terms you have spoken of being Cherokee have you not?


 So since you want to bring up the question of enrollment into this equation, I must ask you for an honest answer as to are you enrolled, and if not then why?


 If you are using this question of if Mr.Carnes is enrolled or not, as some way to question or to say he has no right to be doing what he does based on your questioning of his status; then wouldn't that mean that you should not be claiming to be a Cherokee man since I do believe you have no proof?

 Is it true of false that you have had both Danielle and Mama Duck do genealogy work on your background, and they only came up with European ancestors?

There is in fact a Ben Carnes on the Choctaw rolls, however this individual is some kind of artist or author or something like that.....definitely not the Ben I know who is the subject of question here.

  How exactly would you know something like that?

 To the best of my knowledge most tribal governments do not give out such info on people; especially if they are still living.

 So upon reading this statement from you this morning, and letting them know what you are saying here; I asked the Choctaw enrollment department if they give out such info. The official on the phone said that they do not.

  If you want you or anyone else here  want's to, you  can do the same and give them a call at 800-522-6170.

Can you prove it?

 I respectfully ask if you can prove you are what you say you are. If my questions are out of line here, then so are yours of anyone.

  Since I have given my word to both Dr.Al and Federica that I will not say things that are questionable on this site, I will  have replied to these statements by you, and have asked you the same questions of yourself  here, that you are of Ben.

 I have tried to do this in a good way, and if it comes across to anyone here as out of line I do give my apologies.

 I will no longer argue about whatever evidence (or so called evidence) or statements any of you post up here unless I can provide evidence of it not being true.

 In all due honesty I do not wish to argue on this topic any longer, but what I spoke of in regards to the things in quotes I feel that you should answer truthfully about yourself if you wish to speak on it in regards to anyone else since it is in my opinion,  that you are being rather hypocritical to make an issue out of these things when the same could easily be asked of you, and the answers to those questions would not be in your favor.

 

[frederica]

Let's not get sidetracked again.  The basic three questions are concerning the Sundance.  It's being held on Ute land without permission.  Was Barclay being sponsored by EMC and  was it an authorized Sundance with correct protocol? 

[Moma_porcupine]

There does appear to be 2 Choctaw Ben Carnes !

I wonder if they are related?

http://www.shopoklahoma.com/sok_art.htm

Acrylic Paint, Drawing Pencil, Color Pencils, Chalk

Ben Carnes

He lives in McAlester, OK


The link below is part of the official website of the Choctaw Nation ...

http://www.choctawnation.com/Culture/dsp_ArtistDetails.cfm?ArtistID=7

  Ben  Carnes

Acrylic Paint, Drawing Pencil, Color Pencils, Chalk

I've also been looking at the connection between Ben Carnes and Billy Tayac and Tomas Eaglebear.

It brings up a lot of questions about when people's good work and activism in one area gets tranfered to another area and may add credibility to an activity  that isn't really related to the area of activism..... it's complicated and I haven't got it figured out what needs to be said or if it even belongs here ..

[Rattlebone]

Let's not get sidetracked again.  The basic three questions are concerning the Sundance.  It's being held on Ute land without permission.  Was Barclay being sponsored by EMC and  was it an authorized Sundance with correct protocol? 

 Okay my apologies if you feel that my questions are sidetracking the issue as it was not, and is not my intention.

 However on the bottom of Walk's post he said

"If there is ANY kind of legitimate proof of any of his claims, lets see it and put this whole issue to rest........PLEASE!!!"

 With his usage of the word ANY in that statement, I felt he meant in every statement he made above. So I felt a few of his statements were questionable because of that.

 I am trying my best to follow what both Dr.Al and you ask of me, but I do ask for some fairness with this because at times I feel there are double standards, even if it is not intended by anyone.

[frederica]

It's not a double standard.  The problem lies in that anyone that attended the Sundance or has legimate information concerning the requested information are not willing to come forward.  So you have 2 groups, supporters and non-supporters neither of which have any answers at this time.

[Walks]

Let's not get sidetracked again.  The basic three questions are concerning the Sundance.  It's being held on Ute land without permission.  Was Barclay being sponsored by EMC and  was it an authorized Sundance with correct protocol? 

That may be the only three questions you wish to be addressed here but there are many others.

But then Mike isn't the only one here who wishes to manipulate the subject, is he?

The relevance of the questions about Carnes making pleas for financial assistance with false claims,then refusing to repay his debt when agreed, claiming titles he can not prove, as well as claiming enrollment as well as other things he can not back up is all pertinent in ascertaining his honesty and integrity and whether he uses Native Spirituality to victimize people for personal financial gain.

With the very real possibility of more people being taken advantage of by this man, why limit any questions?

I totally understand the need to stay on topic and agree, but this subject has many issues related to it.

Even Mike calling into question my own integrity has a bearing on addressing this fairly since I am one of the ones making claims.

He knows the answers to his questions and has his own reasons for answering them.....to discredit me, the accuser.

He knows that hearing stories of my Tsalagi Ancestry is one of my earliest childhood memories.
He knows the two or three year ago claim he is trying to make is in relation to other Native Ancestry I have but only recently learned of.

He knows I am not enrolled, but so what, I'm not claiming to be a Spiritual leader either.

He knows what I look like and I know what he does.....anyone wish to compare the two?

Now, this thread concerns Ben.

I posted another for questions concerning me, perhaps he should direct those questions there.

If anyone has personal questions for me, feel free to PM me with them as well as why they think its important to know and we can address that without further interruption of this thread with my info.

Why wont Ben answer questions if he is on the up and up?

[frederica]

The relevance of the questions about Carnes making pleas for financial assistance with false claims,then refusing to repay his debt when agreed, claiming titles he can not prove, as well as claiming enrollment as well as other things he can not back up is all pertinent in ascertaining his honesty and integrity and whether he uses Native Spirituality to victimize people for personal financial gain.

    Can you provide some concrete evidence, files, or the like about donations and how used, personal financial gain, how used ect. that do not involve personal debts between you and he?

[Rattlebone]

  In an earlier thread post today Federica said the following

" It's not a double standard.  The problem lies in that anyone that attended the Sundance or has legimate information concerning the requested information are not willing to come forward.  So you have 2 groups, supporters and non-supporters neither of which have any answers at this time."

 So in that statement all can see that she feels that neither of us have any answers at this time. So I am not doing any more or any less then anyone else when I post in this forum.

 I do admit I have been warned by both Federica and Dr.Al to remain under certain guidelines and rules of this site. Those mainly being that I will not flame, say things that seem libelous, or make claims that I can't provide proof of.

 Since then I have, and will continue do my best to not willfully commit any such acts on this site. I do like being a member of this site, and feel that I can best learn from it, and be a contributing member.

  So that in mind, I think Mr.Walks violated those same guidelines that I am now doing my best to follow when he stated the following things.

 "But then Mike isn't the only one here who wishes to manipulate the subject, is he?"

  I am not here to manipulate anything, and all I did today was make a statement and asked some questions. Same as Mr.Walks, and I don't feel that I did them disrespectfully. I did do them with a point in mind.

 The other statement by Mr.Walks made that I feel is nothing more then a personal attack is  when he said

 "He knows what I look like and I know what he does.....anyone wish to compare the two?

 First and foremost his appearance really wasn't the issue I was getting at in my questions to him, and I have in fact explained to one of the moderators today that neither enrollment status, lack of it, or BQ is an issue with me. So when I raised those questions it was not because of those issues at all.

 As for what I do? I have already stated that I am no angel, and that I do flame on other boards and use profanity. That of course has nothing to do with the topic since it really doesn't have any relevance to this issue.

 I do use a lot of my time online doing very good things, but of course that is not going to be mentioned by Mr.Walks.


 As for the statements about me "knowing about hearing childhood stories from when Walks was a child." I honestly don't know what he is talking about as he and I have never been that close. All I have ever known about him in regards to this was that he says he is Cherokee, and a few of his friends said he was as well. It was later on when I heard about the other things he such as no proof of ancestry etc.

 I would also like to state that I know nothing about him ever saying he was of more then one tribe when he states

"He knows the two or three year ago claim he is trying to make is in relation to other Native Ancestry I have but only recently learned of."

 In reality what I have been told was that while he was staying with the Carnes, it was mentioned to him that he might be from a couple other tribes since they once lived in the area his family is from, or something to that effect. I don't know the exacts of that conversation, but I do know his claim here to knowing about this matter of two or three years is a false one.

 I can provide evidence in his own words that he barely started saying this where I could see it on Sep 8, 2008 in which in his own words he said he "learned a year ago". This year ago that he speaks of, I do believe might fall in about the same time frame as when he was still associating with the Carnes family.


 In his most recent post in which he references me he once again states in regards to Mr.Carnes

  "as well as claiming enrollment as well as other things he can not back up is all pertinent in ascertaining his honesty "

 I look at this statement like I would in hearing the arguments of a defense attorney and a prosecutor when they question witnesses. Both of which will ask questions to gauge the credibility of a particular witness and their motives in making certain statements while on the stand.

 Since Mr.Walks thinks this issue of enrollment is pertinent to the issue at hand, I will have to agree with him.

 All that in mind it should be stated that anyone who see's Mr.Carnes can tell he is undeniably Native. Being that I am a Choctaw person myself I do recognize a Choctaw person when I see one. In fact when speaking to the person from Choctaw Nation enrollment department today about what is going on with NAPFS, I do remember telling her how Mr.Carnes looks a lot like my uncle who was enrolled and was himself 3/4's Choctaw by blood.

 Earlier I mentioned that Mr. Walks is not enrolled as he has now admitted, and questioned him on if he should be able to claim he is Cherokee or not because of his lack of enrollment and proof.
 
 As it can now be clearly seen, Mr.Walks did come back here and appears to still be calling himself a Cherokee, and is now even claiming to possibly be of more then one additional tribe.

 So if he can still call himself Cherokee despite his lack of enrollment or proof of ancestry, then why is he making an issue out of the possible non enrollment of a Ben Carnes; who anyone on this board would know without doubt is a Choctaw man simply by looking at him?

 So the questions I asked Mr.Walks earlier were not to belittle him or mock him based on non enrollment, BQ or what he looks like or doesn't look like.

 My point was that I felt him questioning Mr.Carnes on it was questionable, and this is because Mr.Walks is not enrolled himself, and yet seems to even now be making enrollment questions as a way to further attack the credibility of Mr.Carnes.

 How can a man not enrolled himself and probably can't be, even think that they could use such a question as a way to judge a person who is clearly Indian, and not be questioned called on it?

 I hope anyone that reads this including the moderators see and understand how this is a pertinent question by me in regards to this issue.

 

 

[Walks]

Ok Mike, I am going to type Real slow.

This issue of whether Ben is enrolled or not wasn't my point.

The point is he makes many claims that he can't or wont show proof of, which may or may not lead to proof of dishonesty.

It just happens that enrollment status was one of the things he claims, it could have just as easy have been any other claim he made.

If someone could ascertain whether this claim is true or false it would help prove his integrity or lack there of.

[Moma_porcupine]

I can't stand to see this thread go on another 10 pages while you all argue about which of yous has the most annoying personality ...

So I am going to post this, though I really don't know that it amounts to much ....

I don't know if anyone would consider recieving funding for a Sundance is a problem . It is a bit odd ben is reffered to as the Chief of the Choctaws, but  I am thinking it is probably just someone was mixed up when they typed this and it's nothing to do with Ben. It's pretty obviouse he is not the Chief of the Choctaw Nation... and doesn't usually claim to be ...


http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:PYEoPpDRSXEJ:www.pym-indiancommittee.com/reports/200
5-2006.pdf+%22ben+carnes%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=157&gl=us

PYM INDIAN COMMITTEE REPORT – FY July 2005-June 2006
The Indian Committee is dedicated to the support and funding of Native American Initiatives that develop leadership and self-sufficiency, and preserve cultural heritage.

A funding request submitted by Maria Barrera, Indian Ministry Outreach Chaplain with “With-In With-Out the Circle Inc.,” was approved to assist basic needs of Native Americans participating in the Eagle Mountain Sundance, July 9 to 16, 2006, in Gardner, Colorado. “Ben Carnes,” Chief of the Choctaw Nation and the Sundance Chief, will administer the funds

I'm not sure what Native community, or specific Elders Ben Carnes is connected to , but he does seem to have some sort of a connection with Billy Tayac  and Tomas Goodbear... Maybe it is just a passing aquaintence and I don't like to read too much into that.

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1032.msg12982#msg12982

Ponshe Humma

Hi,
I know the Tayak family personally

Billy Tayac has been struggling to have the Piscataway Indian Nation recognized

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piscataway_Indians

The Piscataway Indian Nation is a non-state, non-federally recognized Native American tribal nation,

Whether or not this is actually a tribe or PODIAs or even non native people of mixed white and african blood is the subject of a lot of debate.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070316110836/http://hal.lamar.edu/~BROWNTF/PISCATAWAY.HTML

Ethnic Identity Movements and the Legal Process: The Piscataway Revival

I can see where some parts of this article above ( edited to add , by Thomas Brown ) that comment on peoples personal lives were not necessary to the broader discussion and I can see where the Tayac family might be offended ...

http://www.eskimo.com/~lcsims/tayacfraud.htm

http://www.piscatawaynation.org/archive/rebuttal.htm

The Picataway Nation's rebuttal of the information in the above links

and then there is this

http://www.somdnews.com/stories/082907/indylet183859_32113.shtml

The recognition advisory committee voted unanimously to recommend state recognition of the Piscataway Indian Nation, based on sound evidence and proper anthropological, genealogical, linguistic and ethnohistorical reasoning.

Reading through all this the only thing that is clear is there is some controvery ...

Reading this article below with no background is a little wierd. It is titled Urgent COINTELPRO Provocateur ALERT, and my first impression was it sounded like some kind of soap opera involving peoples love lives, a website and some allegedly "Cointelpro-like propaganda".

Ben Carnes is mentioned though it's hard to tell what his involvement is.

http://www.piscatawaynation.org/alert.htm

For the last three decades, whenever a major native incident has occurred, the Tayac family has worked diligently with the native people here in Washington, DC, and has coordinated same day support action in Central America, South America, Canada, and Europe. Wounded Knee, Ganienkeh, the Salvadorian Massacres, Oka, Big Mountain, and Gustafsen Lake are a few examples of the Tayac family dedication to the Native struggle.

(con...)

Billy Tayac had requested the access codes for the LISN web site on many occasions from Menier and his wife, because they were not keeping the LISN site updated. Menier told another LISN member, Ben Carnes, that he would give Billy the codes. After many emails and phone calls, Menier finally telephoned the Tayacs and informed them that the LISN site had been taken down. Upon investigation, it was discovered that Menier and his wife and ordered the LISN site down.

The alliance between Menier, his wife, Janet Cavallo and Thomas Brown has intensified recently with the addition of Linda Lemonde AKA Ishgodda of NativeNews. Lemonde lives in Michigan and is an unrecognized non-enrolled Wyandot Indian. Due to her friendship with Menier's wife, she has joined the Cointelpro-type conspiracy, unwittingly or knowingly, and posted links to the Brown's anti-Tayac material found on the Internet. She has been previously suspected of disseminating misinformation and Cointelpro-like propaganda on Native people. Thomas Brown, the author of the smear paper, typifies the Cointelpro actions of earlier years. He has neither credibility nor credentials, and cites other racist authors, including himself.

These are non-Indians trying to define who is an Indian. The Tayac family has put their lives on the line many times with the Native struggles in this hemisphere. Isn't it time that native people define themselves, and not be defined by outsiders who disseminate lies and distortions?

I can appreciate that if someone who is a PODIA comes from a family that maintained a relationship with the Native community and has dedicates their life to standing up for NDN people , and they are accepted as an NDN by other Native people, as long as they aren't lying about who they are, that persons personal identity should not be open to dispute. But I'm not sure being an individual with strong ties to the Pan NDN Native community translates into the right to claim a tribal identity or Nationhood.     

What I really don't like is the way these people seem to accuse anyone who questions the legitimacy of their tribe , based on what appear to be facts and historical evidence , as being part of some cointelpro manouver .

Sorry but I find that really offensive. If the facts are wrong refute that, but just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them involved in cointelpro ...

The LISN web site would be connected to this - which is mentioned in the Picatawaty rebuttal of Browns article ...

The League of Indigenous Sovereign Nations (LISN) is an organization comprised of Native nations within this hemisphere and many Native individuals. LISN has met with United Nations representatives, as well as, ambassadors from Canada, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Columbia on Native human rights issues that have occurred inside these countries. LISN has become the flash point for these international and domestic concerns. There are over 40 million Natives within the western hemisphere that do not have a voice in mankind. However, there are U.N. member countries that have only 50,000 people that do have a voice and a vote within the U.N. There have been many hemispheric Native conferences on this same issue.

I guess this letter from Tomas Eaglebear which is published on the PIN website is also refering to this dispute and mentions Ben Carnes

http://www.piscatawaynation.org/archive/tomas.htm

Letter from Tomas EagleBear
 (begins ....)

When I came out to Sundance last year, Mat discussed with me what was going on with him and Jason. There was going to be a meeting with the Chief and Mark and Sugar, so Mat asked Ben Carnes and I, if we would be there to bear witness on what was said and done. We agreed to go with him.

(con....)

I have been involved with the Sundance since its beginning. I hope that my word is helpful in resolving the current conflict. Our prayers, from our Church Community are with you.

For our Earth Mother, I remain,

Tomas EagleBear

I'm not sure if this is Billy Tayac's Sundance of Ben Carnes

http://www.piscatawaynation.org/archive/rebuttal.htm

Thomas Eagle Bear is an Apache Indian that was adopted into my family, but is not an enrolled Piscataway

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1604.msg10110#msg10110

Tomas is the elder of the Aztlan Native American Cultural Arts Center in Gardner, Colorado. (con...)

Aztlan is a community of people that Thomas inspired over twenty years ago and in many ways leads, living the traditions and ways their people have held onto. The members of the community are mainly descendants of the Mimbreno Apache and the Mexican Indian people..

..

It seems this group connected to Billy Tayac is not really following anything truely traditional but is just mixing and matching pieces of various traditons.

From the rebuttal to Browns article on the PIN website

Today many Native people practice the sacred Sun Dance in Canada and the U.S. It is not a Plains Indian rite, but is meant for all Indians. It is practiced by Navajos in Arizona; Crees, Mohawks, Ojibwa, Anishinabe in Canada and the U.S. Many South and Central American Natives travel to the U.S. to participate. However, we also practice the Awakening of Mother Earth, Green Corn, Feast of the Dead and Mid-Winter ceremonies, and have name giving, marriages and burial rites. Yet, these individuals who have no Native culture or spirituality criticize us. They are envious and are spiritually and culturally barren.

Like the Tayak family above , I saw where Ben also got into suggesting if anyone was critical of him  they might be infiltrators or informants ..... again I don't agree with that ....

Ben did this when he was criticized by Kenny Frost...

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=113824469&blogID=431484864

Some of what Ben Carnes in relation to the criticism from Kenny Frost where Mr Frost expressed concerns about self appointed spiritual leaders.

I've seen this type of behavior from others for years and I've always hoped that people would grow and rise above. Just consider the case of Anna Mae, people spreading rumors created by the FBI got her murdered. If people don't have the facts, then they are irresponsible for spreading information that could be harmful and even considered libelous.

All we can do is keep positive in how we interact with others and in how we live. Who knows how many people we can infect with a smile. Ben

but then he goes on to say ...

We have much to do in de-colonizing ourselves so that we can remove ourselves from being pawns of the divide and conquer strategy. We just have to watch for the provocateurs, infiltrators, and informants who come into our circles like a parasite to create a bitter infection among our relationships. Thank you. Ben

I can understand why Ben was a bit offended , as part of what Kenny Frost accused him of seems to be based on a misunderstanding - it sounds like Mr Frost thought Ben Carnes went to the Gathering of One to work with that offensive woman with the stolen blood stained drum , when he actually went to tell her how offensive her activities were.

But going off on a paranoid rant suggesting traditional people who are uncomfortable with what you are doing somehow have something to do with being infiltrators and informants does not seem healthy.

Especially when what you are doing may be in violation of a protection of ceremonies decree and you know what you are doing may be offensive to some strongly traditional NDN people .

Reply #20 on: April 05, 2008, of this thread

Ben Carnes   

As for Looking Horse's statement, I remember the protection of ceremonies statement. I also remember the statements by Chief Leonard Crow Dog, Chief Reggie Little Brave, and others who did not agree with the "Protection of Ceremonies" statement. I  also remember being asked by many other practitioners of the Sun Dance what I thought. I expressed that until the Lakota people came to a consensus, we should continue our prayers to the Creator. I have made a commitment to this way of life and no man has the right to stand between the Creator and myself.

I guess he shouldn't be surprised or take it personally when some people have concerns.

[frederica]

This is what I mean by sidetrack.  Supporters vs. non-supporters. The forum deal mostly with exploitation of some type, financial, spiritual and the and even sexual.  You have to present facts.  Personal issues have to be dealt with on your own.  If you lend someone money, and are not repayed, you have avenues you can pursue.  It's up to the individual to do this.  If someone says something you object to and it's not just an argument to be arguing with that individual, okay.  But it always get personal and this is not the place for it.  If you want to argue, PM each other.  

[mamaduck33]

I have never heard Ben or anyone from our Choctaw communities refer to him as Choctaw Chief.  Ever.  The person who wrote that was mistaken.  Although, many decide for themselves who they consider to be a leader of their people, regardless of who is appointed to our tribal council.

Also, when Ben wrote that statement during the time Kenny came in and made remarks off of here say, it was not traditionals Ben was asking people to be cautious of, it was those who are podia or not native at all trying to get "in" with the native communities and then turning around and causing trouble.  These comments were based on the actions of the likes of Walks.  Not traditionals that may have questions.  Or anyone who may have questions or concerns.

The reason you are not getting your answers is because you are not entitled to them.  No one has to answer to a single person on this board.  The ones that they need to answer to are being answered to.  Ben is a very busy man.  And even so, I know that he has always made a point to speak with someone who comes to him in a good way to answer their questions.  Maybe if you had just called him and asked instead of believing that you are entitled to force him here to answer you...you all would have had your answers a long time ago.  It's not like the man is hard to get a hold of.