Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council

[Rattlebone]

  bls926,

 I am not really going to get into this discussion any more then I need to anymore. One of the things I have been saying for a long time is that some of the players in this issue have made all kinds of threats to those of us who are supporting Ben, and have done it on several occasions over the last few years for other reasons. In the past I have had not came forward with  proof that such activity was being performed and all my statements in regards to that have hence been called fabricated or out right lies. In the last week I have provided proof to Dr. Al that my claims of those threats are real, as one of the individuals who was making them to me, made the exact same one recently in public that they had to me in private last summer.

 When a person makes threats to somebody that is in an issue like this, I would think you would have better judgment then to associate yourself with that person and/or believe everything they are saying is truthful. The issue of their character should be really looked at.

  I admit that I have exchanged some insults with people online, and have been in some pretty bad arguments. However I have never threatened violence against anyone in any of these issue including this one. I would not associate myself with anyone who did regardless of what side they were on in this issue. It is never right to behave in such a manner period, and is not even legal.

 The threats I received last year I held in my possession and never came forward with them for personal reasons of my own. It was not until recently that I figured that it was time that I came forward with them, and I have proven that I was never lying about them at all.

 I have other things in my possession of a similar nature that I have yet to come forward with as well, if I decide to even come forward with them. Each and every thing I know about that I have left unsaid proves much of the things I have been saying on here for a while now.

 What disturbs me about some of the statements I see you make, is that you seem to have made your mind up as to the guilt of the things Ben Carnes has been accused of.

 Have you not realized the title of this section is "research needed?"

[Rattlebone]

I would also like to state that what this group is about is taking down people that engage in criminal behavior to some degree, or things we feel are crimes against the ways of Native people, and the ways of other religions.

 So to me it does not do good for the reputation of this site to allow the words of those who engage in what is in my opinion criminal behavior to be seen and used as something credible in the investigation of others.

[bls926]

I would also like to state that what this group is about is taking down people that engage in criminal behavior to some degree, or things we feel are crimes against the ways of Native people, and the ways of other religions.

 So to me it does not do good for the reputation of this site to allow the words of those who engage in what is in my opinion criminal behavior to be seen and used as something credible in the investigation of others.

What gave you the idea that NAFPS is only about "taking down people that engage in criminal behavior to some degree, or things we feel are crimes against the ways of Native people, and the ways of other religions"?

"Criminal behavior" . . . There is so much more to it than that. People are hurt, misdirected, emotionally abused, conned, and scammed without any laws being broken. Yes, there are many that have acted illegally. However, I don't think we should wait until someone crosses that line to ask questions or expose them as a fraud.

"things we feel are crimes against the ways of Native people, and the ways of other religions" . . . This I agree with, as do the majority of the members of NAFPS. That's why this discussion is taking place.

Are you accusing me of engaging in criminal behavior? No, I didn't think you were. I don't think we need a rehash of who you're referring to.

That is exactly my point. Valid questions have been asked and remain unanswered. It doesn't matter who asked the questions. It doesn't matter why the questions were asked. Quit trying to derail this discussion with personal garbage and internet drama.

[bls926]

  bls926,

 What disturbs me about some of the statements I see you make, is that you seem to have made your mind up as to the guilt of the things Ben Carnes has been accused of.

 Have you not realized the title of this section is "research needed?"

I cut the first part of your post, cause I am not adding to the drama, the "he said she said" that any discussion of Ben Carnes has turned into.

My statements disturb you? Statements you've seen me make online? I stayed out of any discussion about Ben and Cat for months. I tried to remain neutral. I know Ben and Cat; not on a personal level, but have corresponded with them on the phone and by e-mail over the past year or so. I worked with Cat on the Rachel Holzwarth problem and the Global Eden Event. I didn't want to believe any of the things I was hearing. I was sure there was some explanation. If there is, I haven't heard it yet. And I have asked, more than once or twice.

My statements disturb you? Child, I have been very restrained. You should hear what I think in private.

[Rattlebone]

 That is exactly my point. Valid questions have been asked and remain unanswered. It doesn't matter who asked the questions. It doesn't matter why the questions were asked. Quit trying to derail this discussion with personal garbage and internet drama.

 

What gave you the idea that NAFPS is only about "taking down people that engage in criminal behavior to some degree, or things we feel are crimes against the ways of Native people, and the ways of other religions"?

 And.....

"Criminal behavior" . . . There is so much more to it than that. People are hurt, misdirected, emotionally abused, conned, and scammed without any laws being broken. Yes, there are many that have acted illegally. However, I don't think we should wait until someone crosses that line to ask questions or expose them as a fraud.

 Simple. This group investigates people that have or have not yet crossed the line of things that might not be actual crimes, and some that have committed crimes. All of this you have pointed out yourself as well. We have now said the exact same thing, but in different words.

 I am shocked you didn't catch on to the meaning of my statement there.

 

"things we feel are crimes against the ways of Native people, and the ways of other religions" . . . This I agree with, as do the majority of the members of NAFPS. That's why this discussion is taking place.

 Yes, but it should be a discussion, with all both sides being allowed to speak and present concerns they may have with what is being said, and by whom.

Are you accusing me of engaging in criminal behavior? No, I didn't think you were. I don't think we need a rehash of who you're referring to.

Why would you even ask this when you knew that I was not?

 I do agree that we do not need to "rehash of whom I was referring to." I was simply stating that I have presented evidence of my before mentioned claims, and from there I was hoping that since I have proved they were real that those issues would be taken in consideration.

 

That is exactly my point. Valid questions have been asked and remain unanswered. It doesn't matter who asked the questions. It doesn't matter why the questions were asked.

 So if you were on trial, and it was your life and reputation that was being questioned, and could be damaged; you would not care what kind of a jury you were given, and nor would you care about the character of some of the witnesses and their motives being put into question?

 Ever done jury duty before? Notice how both the prosecution and the defense get to pick the jury members, and how later on the witnesses are cross examined?

 I think on here since in a way this is like a trial, similar things should be done to make the investigation as fair and as clean as possible.


 

Quit trying to derail this discussion with personal garbage and internet drama.

I do not appreciate whatsoever how you are talking to me here. All I did was come here and let it be known to you, and other readers that I have talked to Dr. Al and have provided evidence that some of what I have stated before was true.

 If that is "derailing this thread", then I think anything I say regardless of the content will be declared as such because you have already made up your mind as to what is true or untrue regardless of nothing being proven at this time.

 In that case why even call it research needed?

Once again I do not appreciate that tone of your replies to me as I was doing what others have done. If you notice on page 14 I believe, even Dr. Al makes statements as to some sort of proof of people making threats, but it is never said who.

If it is valid there, then it should be valid here.

[Moma_porcupine]

OK I have something I want to say here...

With respect to the traditional ways Bens supporters all feel so strongly they are entitled to have access to, I saw some really standard questions about what qualifications are required of people leading these traditions get posted over on Indianz.com . No names were included , just a reasonably objective description of a situation.

Rattlebone YOU turned this into a deeply personal attack on the person asking these very standard questions.

I don't know Ben, and i don't know any of the people involved , but just on general principal here is how I see the situation.

The people are who are being served by a Spiritual leader have every right to ask that person who taught them, who gave then these rights, and who their community of Elders is.

It shouldn't matter if the person asking these questions is an Elder or a mentally unstable and violent druggie, under no circumstances is it ever appropriate to answer those standard questions with a personal attack on the person who asked them with the intention of getting them to stop asking the questions.

Someone mentioned people have felt threatened and intimidated not to ask questions, and someone else said they didn't believe that ever happened. People don't have to be physically threatened to be intimidated into not asking questions or made to feel unsafe to ask, and what i saw happen in the thread below would make anyone who wasn't a Saint feel scared to ask what needs to be asked of anyone claiming to be a Spiritual leader. Ben and Cat seemed to be very concerned about the issue of cultural misappropriation last summer when they were speaking out against that woman with the drum and the stolen blood. How exactly is it going to be possible for anyone to avoid supporting frauds or marginally trained people, if it becomes normal to respond to standard questions with personal attacks to shut people up? You don't think frauds use the same tactics ? Without being able to ask questions without fear of reprisals, how exactly are people supposed to avoid endangering themselves and avoid supporting people who shouldn't be supported?

As i see it, and this is just my own 1/2 baked understanding of things, Spiritual leadership is about responsibility and usually comes with the ability to unite people and create peace. Where is the responsibility here ? Why is there so many bad feelings? Where is the Spiritual leadership ? Why are people being attacked for asking legitimate questions and why is Ben standing by and letting this happen?

Rattlebone, i see you fight some good fights , and i respect that, but I also see you are very determined to dispute the boundaries and traditional structures that maintain the health of the of the very things you seem to feel you are entitled to access.

I'd really appreciate it if you could take a step back and look at the bigger picture and realize these ways aren't just for you and your buddies. If you expect access you first have a responsibility to respect the traditional structures which maintain these traditions in a good way for all the generations to come. 

it seems to me that one of the most important parts of this traditional structure is the guidence of Elders who are recognized as such by the communities where these traditions originated.

In the thread below, Glenda Deer gave a bit more information about who Ben's Elders and Spiritual community actually are, and that is helpful. I'm not sure if that will answer peoples questions or not, but it is helpful and it does answer at least some of what was being asked.     

 
http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36742&whichpage=6
Glenda Deer

I’ve been wondering where this weird ass obsession with my brother Ben came from, and then I realized there was something about these so-called “valid questions” that you believe Ben should answer to. When I saw the above repost of David Hill’s statement in support of Ben, your questions should have been put to rest. Isn’t or wasn’t David’s word good enough for you?

OK , I don't know David Hill , and i'm not clear if he is recognized as someone who knows enough about these ways to give someone permission to practice them. I have enough of a clue to know he is a respected activist, but I'm not sure being an effective activist and knowing what is required to be a Spiritual leader are neccesarily the same thing . I don't mean any disrespect to David Hill , but I need to ask,  within the culture of the communities where Sundance originated is David Hill's endorsement sufficent ? 

Glenda Deer

You question Ben’s credentials as an Indian, a Sun dance Chief and a warrior, that is quite arrogant and shows your ignorance. Well, you met Ben and you know he is Indian, but you were trying to cast innuendos in a bad way to plant seeds of suspicion. You question whether he is a Sun Dance Chief, but are you a Sun Dancer?? Are you, Bren? And is it even any of your business? Why do you need to stick your nose in matters that you aren’t familiar with especially in regards to the spirituality of another. If you truly knew about Sun dances and their different protocols, you were speaking well out of your league.


You already know this history, again from David Hill, but did you ever investigate by calling Chief Tayac about Ben and how his son placed this honor upon Ben? Ben didn’t ask for it, and was told that he couldn’t say no. What did Ben do? He did what he was told and stepped to the front of the line to carry that altar. I bet that you also didn’t know that Ben did not ask to Sun dance..... Chief Billy Tayac told him to Sun dance and that he should have already been a Sun dancer. What did Ben do? He began Sun Dancing, why? Because he respected the Chief who told him to dance. And is that any of your business...you aren’t a Sun dancer... it isn’t. But if you thought something was wrong, why didn’t you bring it to Chief Tayac’s attention? Let them investigate if there is any truth to these so-called “valid questions”. Traditionally, you don’t go outside to an Internet site of self-appointed crusaders/puppets and begin questioning anyone. It isn’t your place....

Thank you. That information is really helpful and answers some of the main questions that were being asked.

I would agree that if Ben was serving a continually existing culturally strong Native community, this isn't a discussion that belongs online outside of that Native community, but that doesn't appear to be the case.  Ben created a presence for himself online through opening a myspace group for Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council . Ben has taken his role as a Spiritual leader into cyberspace, and some of his supporters such as rattlebone claim to have never met the guy and only know him in cyberspace, so in my mind it seems fair that people in cybrspace should be able to ask who passed these ways on to him and who recognizes and supports him as a Spiritual leader.
 
While i don't know the "motives"  of the people asking these questions - I really don't see why that should matter. To make an analogy , nobody who goes to a doctor in an area where there is lots of imposters and expects to have their love life and disputes in their work place made public in retaliation for asking to see his license to practice. If Ben is doing everything in a way that respects the structure of traditional protocols i can't see how anyone would misconstrue these standard questions as any kind of "attack'.

All that was being asked is the questions that are necessary if people are going to be able to avoid getting involved with people who are doing something wrong, and there is lots of them out there.

There is over 14 pages of a thread on Ben, and not once have they come up with any proof, in spite of all the proof and leads to investigate right in front of their noses. Ben has never went and dignified their questions with an answer. Why should he? And who are the people hiding behind the fraud board that Ben should account to? No one that Ben should be accountable to. You should have called Chief Tayac, but then David already told you Ben is legit...but STIL you carry on.

Well as I already pointed out, Ben is presenting himself as the leader of some sort of traditionally based Spiritual community on line, and as this is the case it seems fair to me he should have some accountability to the "on line' community.

Anyway, if you want to see if Ben is a fraud or see what he does, then many of you who attend the Leonard Peltier Defense Offense Committee planning conference on July 4th & 5th can get the opportunity to see for yourself. Because following the conference, they will host their 4th Annual Eagle Mountain Sun Dance. That is if you can come in a good way, and show some respect to the ceremony. Their Sun Dance is July 5th to the 12th, and of course you will need to speak with Ben about attending. He doesn’t act like a fraud to me, most of them will hide from everyone and do it quiet, but instead, he is opening up. It is so sad you don’t see the difference...or don't want to see...

These stupid ass attacks against my brother needs to stop

(continues into a whole different issue .....

Asking standard questions about someones Elders isn't an attack , but the personal attacks on the people asking these questions most certainly is, and I'm sorry to say that in this situation i haven't seen anything that looks like Spiritual leadership coming from Ben.

I'm really sorry to jump in here and say anything because it really isn't my business and I'm just a nobody with very liitle knowledge, but i have seen people asking legitimate questions and getting visciously personally attacked for this and IMO thats just wrong.

Spiritual leadership is a function not a position, and in this situation it doesn't seem to be functioning very well.

i think you all should be ashamed of yourselves and you owe the people who asked these questions a sincere apology.

Just my very crabby 10 cents worth... and i'm sorry if i've offended anyone with my big mouth

[educatedindian]

 In the last week I have provided proof to Dr. Al that my claims of those threats are real, as one of the individuals who was making them to me, made the exact same one recently in public that they had to me in private last summer.

 When a person makes threats to somebody that is in an issue like this, I would think you would have better judgment then to associate yourself with that person and/or believe everything they are saying is truthful. The issue of their character should be really looked at....

This wasn't addressed to me, but I think I should make what RB said a little clearer and add some other facts here.

RB did provide evidence to me of what seems a very clear threat to him, an "I know where you live" kind of remark made online. Because the remark actually does reveal personal information, I won't repost it or link to it.

But what Carnes's supporters don't seem to care to notice is the allegations made against Carnes go far beyond the initial accusations.

Suppose we now discount statements from this one person? We should not do that, as Momma P points out, because even statements made by an unprincipled person get some consideration. Someone in organized crime who is a witness to a murder still gets called as a witness, even though he's a criminal himself. And I rush to say, the Carnes are certainly not accused of any kind of wrongdoing on that level....

The fact remains, even if we ignore the people who made the initial accusations, the initial questions still remain:

We don't know who supposedly made Carnes a Sundance chief, and they refuse to say.
The EMC still does ceremonies on Ute land without permission and with the opposition of elders.
EMC still has Nuagers within the group, a Nuager brought in by the Carnes themselves and doing Nuage ceremonies and supposed healing, and another Nuager promoting Nuage frauds on their website.

Those are all facts that exist independent of the people who initially accused the Carnes.

Yes, RB, after 15 pages, we do have facts. The only thing missing is the Carnes's explanation or defense. Far from "refusing to dignify", they seem to be hiding and doing their best to avoid answering these questions.

Let me ask you, can you think of a single reasonable defense to any of these wrongdoings of theirs? If they named who allegedly made Carnes a chief, maybe. But the only good reason not to say that is simple: People would check to see if it's true, and find out it isn't.

I can't think of any reasonable defense for an alleged NDN spiritual community to invite Nuagers to sell ceremonies. And above all I can't think of any reasonable defense to hold Ute elders in such contempt as I've seen some Carnes's supporters do on this thread, and as the Carnes have done themselves.

On a side note, I had thought about removing all these questions about ethics, the purpose of NAFPS, etc, but I don't see how anymore. And at least the questions are being discusssed civilly now, unlike through much of the thread.

But if these questions threaten to sidetrack the thread too much from the subject of the Carnes and EMC, we must yank it right back to what it's supposed to be about.

[tachia]

i am not going to quote mama p, bls, and al .. .. suffice it to say that i agree with everything they are saying .. ..

my question now is ..

can i post in here without being once again viciously attacked on a personal level .. ..

disagree, argue, debate my words, thoughts, beliefs etc, but do not attack me personally .. there is no need whatsoever to take this discussion down to a level of complete and total disrespect in a personal vicious attack on me (or others) .. ya know i have not said one "personal" thing against the carnes and their associates, and believe me i certainly could as i KNOW them in real life ..i could very well "sling mud" as "they" are doing .. i do not stoop to that level, their personal life is not in question here .. nor is mine!!! .. ..

[Rattlebone]

Rattlebone YOU turned this into a deeply personal attack on the person asking these very standard questions.

 You know I don't know if I should even be responding to this post of yours  or Al's because im not sure if doing so will seem as if I am "derailing" this thread, or making attacks on people. All of which really isn't my intentions.

 My initial response over there was questioning the statement made by the person in question in regards to their assumption that the Carnes had whites in ceremonies, or people they assumed were such. Of course in that case I mentioned the person(s) by name, but I will not here.

 In that individuals statements they mentioned Sweats in regards to this issue, but did not mention the Sun Dance.

 So if we are just talking about sweats in regard to their post, even Al has agreed with me that allowing NONS in sweats isn't necessarily a bad thing. Al has problems with allowing them to do Sundances. I on the other hand won't make any real concrete statement or decision on the matter of Sundances as I am not one, and don't know much about them.

 However  I do not believe in the concept of "race," so such factors would not bother me as long as it was okay with the elder(s) or spiritual leader(s). Allowing NONS into such things can be problematic, and troublesome I agree, but the problems they can cause I have seen caused by people who were of Indian blood themselves.

 I personally don't think the Creator see's any person on this planet different then another, or loves another less because of such a thing as race. It is in my belief that a spiritual person has the duty of helping People period. This of course DOES NOT MEAN that I believe people should just be doing whatever  they want in regards to ceremonies and Native ways either. I have known many an elder in my life who would allow trusted NONS into ceremonies if they trusted them, or people who did not look NDN as long as they trusted them too. Sure it was not something that happened frequently, but it did happen.

 A lot of that has Grey areas, but life is full of grey areas and issues to deal with in itself.

 When I came to this site a year ago, the person whom made that post over on Indianz was here side by side with two of the posters still present, and they were backing Mr.Carnes. One of those people they were here backing is of course white looking and un- enrolled. So when I see them making such statements now it bothers me because it seems to me they are saying one thing, and then doing another.

 That post was not hypothetical as it was claimed. One section of it mentions "Some wonder if he is enrolled, he has admitted himself he didn't start gathering the where with all about being Indian until he was in prison as an adult. He said he was raised in juvenile facilites his whole life before that, now wants to act as a spiritual leader and chief," which I felt was wrong to do so. People have made mistakes at times in their lives, and should we hold that against them their entire lives?

 Heck didn't most of the leaders of AIM have records?

Someone mentioned people have felt threatened and intimidated not to ask questions, and someone else said they didn't believe that ever happened. People don't have to be physically threatened to be intimidated into not asking questions or made to feel unsafe to ask, and what i saw happen in the thread below would make anyone who wasn't a Saint feel scared to ask what needs to be asked of anyone claiming to be a Spiritual leader.

 You know this is a very good point you are making. Perhaps I would not feel as strongly about this issue and some of it's players had I not received the threats by them I have. I do admit I am no saint, and had been in many arguments with them in the past over other issues.

  However, when this issue first broke and I became aware it was going on, it was on myspace and not on here. When it was being discussed and even argued over there long before the issue came here; I was threatened with both physical violence as well as stalking. I have pretty much proved that to be true.

 So when I was questioning those who were asking questions back then, they tried to silence me with threats. Some of those threats they have now made good on and have carried certain aspects of them through. Why? Because I dared to challenge their motives and questions with questions about themselves.


If anyone feels that I am getting off track or anything with this post feel free to delete it or whatever. I just felt I needed to respond to some of what was said by MP

 

[Moma_porcupine]

Hi Rattlebone

I'm not sure if were getting off track but if we are maybe one of the mods will make your post into the start of a new thread about dealing with interpersonal issues - or something. Hah ... when Walks was complaining Ben owed him money I was thinking of starting a thread for people who had stuff borrowed that hadn't been returned... LOL

I want to respond to what your saying here because I think we're getting close to some of the core issues.

All the quotes below are from Rattlebone's last post

My initial response over there was questioning the statement made by the person in question in regards to their assumption that the Carnes had whites in ceremonies, or people they assumed were such.

One of the things I notice is people usually have areas where they argree and areas where they disagree, and if they share an interest in an area they argree they may put the area they disagree on the back burner. As time passes and they see more and more of the area they disagree they realize more and more they really disagree and then the area where there is a disagreement becomes more and more of a priority to resolve. If this fails some bitter feelings can result because the areas of disagree begin to over flow and contaminate even the areas where there is agreement .

I on the other hand won't make any real concrete statement or decision on the matter of Sundances as I am not one, and don't know much about them.

I think the point is, after allowing non natives to participate in central roles in these ceremonies, and seeing the problems that resulted, there is many Elders who decided long term preservation of the structure of these traditions was more important than allowing individuals to occupy central roles in these ceremonies . I know very little about the details of these ceremonies, but common sense suggests expecting some individuals to make some personal sacrifices in order to facilitate the long term preservation of these traditions is the 'side" i want to support.

I don't have much sympathy for non native people who insist they should have the freedom to whatever role suits them in a traditional ceremony, but I do have a lot of sympathy for the mixed blood people who have been involved for decades and even generations who are now not only being asked to step back , but are being made the target of as lot of resentment for problems they never personally had any part in creating.

A mixed blood person I have a lot of respect for has always had Sundancers in their family, and they told me how their cousin who isn't enrolled was in the middle of fufilling his commitment and people in their community respected this as the family is well known, but then some Sundancers from somewhere else came and just treated their cousin like a piece of shit. The whole family and even the community was really offended.

So while I fully support those Elders who are looking at the big picture and who want to protect and preserve these traditions for future generations, I am aware of the sacrifice thats being demanded of a lot of people who occupy those gray areas, I don't support hatred . Not ever .  And I do support those who have enough respect to see the big picture and make the sacrifice of steping back. 
 

However  I do not believe in the concept of "race," so such factors would not bother me as long as it was okay with the elder(s) or spiritual leader(s). Allowing NONS into such things can be problematic, and troublesome I agree, but the problems they can cause I have seen caused by people who were of Indian blood themselves.

Racism is a really complicated topic, and it seems to be a few different things that get tangled together.

In the case of non native people being excluded from some aspects of traditional cultures I think the underlying reasons are to do with what happenes when people carrying the world view of primarily non native cultures get mixed in overwhelming proportions with a few people who carry a primarily indigenous world view. I agree that these problems are not only carried by non native people, but if the native community and Elders are going to have the job of dealing with these problems, it seems they should be allowed to focus on their own people , without being overwhelmed by a never ending torrential flow of non native people. 

I personally don't think the Creator see's any person on this planet different then another, or loves another less because of such a thing as race. It is in my belief that a spiritual person has the duty of helping People period. This of course DOES NOT MEAN that I believe people should just be doing whatever ever they want in regards to ceremonies and Native ways either. I have known many an elder in my life who would allow trusted NONS into ceremonies if they trusted them, or people who did not look NDN as long as they trusted them too. Sure it was not something that happened frequently, but it did happen.

I think the underlying concerns influencing this dialog is much more based in maintaing and respecting cultural protocols , and the importance of preserving native traditions within a cultural environment which preserves these.

A lot of that has Grey areas, but life is full of grey areas and issues to deal with in itself.

Yes and it is these gray areas and the people in them are the main force which is interfereing with creating protective boundaries and undermining the power of many Native people who have very legitimate concerns about maintaining correct cultural protocols So you get some people trying to say there should be no gray areas, and in their pain at continuously being violated, directing hatred at these people and saying people are either NDN or not period.

My own opinion is there are people who fall between the cracks and who are for one reason or another are legitimately influenced and a part of both cultures, and if people find themselves in this position they have a responsibility to try and solve the problems their community creates.

One of the simplist solutions seems to me to be that the people occupying gray areas should step back from occupying the central and sensitive positions of traditional leadership , and leave these positions to be occupied by people who are strongly supported by culturally intact native communities.

The other thing people in gray areas can do to make sure they aren't a part of the problem is to make sure they aren't supporting leadership outside of those who have the strong cultural and community support reffered to above.
 

When I came to this site a year ago, the person whom made that post over on Indianz was here side by side with two of the posters still present, and they were backing Mr.Carnes. One of those people they were here backing is of course white looking and un- enrolled. So when I see them making such statements now it bothers me because it seems to me they are saying one thing, and then doing another.

Rattlebone, I'm not suprised by this at all , because as i pointed out these situations are composed of many interconnected things and people often put aside a disagreement in one area to work together in the area where they agree. I don't see it as hypocrisy, i see it as human beings trying to find a path through a complex and unprecedented cultural situation within the context of their own lives, personal alligences and joys and pains. Of course we all are a bit confused . But personal attacks and trying to humiliate each other isn't going to help.

Heck didn't most of the leaders of AIM have records?

I already posted this link, but learning Billy Tayaks involvement in this situation it is probably even more relevent.

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1326.0

Another thing connected to this , I hesitate to say much about ....  because i only heard some grumblings and don't fully understand this or how different tribes see this, but in some traditions, the roles of Spiritual leadership and being a warrior are kept sepreate. Maybe this is because it's really hard to work to create harmonious relationships and confront intractable enemies at the same time. Whatever the reasons for this, I am under the impression some cultures Elders very strongly disagreed with people involved in AIM being given any rights to lead some types of ceremonies. I'm not sure if this is relevent to this situation or the ceremonies in question, and maybe someone else would be better able to explain this , and if that might be part of the issue here.   

Perhaps I would not feel as strongly about this issue and some of it's players had I not received the threats by them I have.

I agree that using threats isn't helpful, I don't support this. But on the other hand i understand this just shows people are feeling really desperate to hang onto power and control and they are feeling so confused and upset they doing crazy things to achieve this. i don't think anyone in this situation is a "bad person" and i see all of you making serious efforts to do good things. I just wish you'd stop trashing each other on a person level. In case you haven't noticed,  (  LOL ) we are all a bit screwed up and sometimes do dumb things.

One of the things mediation teaches is that everybody is acting out of a legitimate need , and everybodies real needs deserve respect.

The questions that have been asked here are about authorization , cultural protocols and how they are being maintained are are legitimate questions which connect with very legitimate needs.   

While I see long term cultural protection as more important than the rights of individuals to have experiences, i also feel a lot of sympathy for the people who find themself in a gray area.

Rattlebone, like i've said, I respect many of the arguements you bring forward advocating for these people, but one of the things that has bothered me about what you bring to the table, is while you are a strong advocate for the rights of people who find themselves some where in between, i don't see you counterbalancing this with equally strong advocacy for the responsibilities and sacrifices to the bigger picture these people must accept if they aren't going to be part of the problem .

I understand these are really deeply painful issues for a lot of people, but respect for protocols  and maintianing traditions in a good way for future generations seems like it should be everyones first priorotiy. Once we get that clear, we need to agree on how to do this. My own opinion is the most effective way to achieve this is by leaving positions of leadership to people living in strong traditionally minded communities.

The questions being asked here about Ben are not personal but simply , does he have that traditional community and the Elders within those communites giving him sufficent support?

Again, I'm sorry to jump in here as i know very little about the details of this situation or the specific traditions being discussed. My only strength is, i'm not personlly involved and my common sense hasn't become confused by being personally involved.

I really hope this helps this situation be less painful for people. 

[bls926]

The fact remains, even if we ignore the people who made the initial accusations, the initial questions still remain:

We don't know who supposedly made Carnes a Sundance chief, and they refuse to say.
The EMC still does ceremonies on Ute land without permission and with the opposition of elders.
EMC still has Nuagers within the group, a Nuager brought in by the Carnes themselves and doing Nuage ceremonies and supposed healing, and another Nuager promoting Nuage frauds on their website.

Those are all facts that exist independent of the people who initially accused the Carnes.

OK I have something I want to say here...

With respect to the traditional ways Bens supporters all feel so strongly they are entitled to have access to, I saw some really standard questions about what qualifications are required of people leading these traditions get posted over on Indianz.com . No names were included , just a reasonably objective description of a situation.

The people are who are being served by a Spiritual leader have every right to ask that person who taught them, who gave then these rights, and who their community of Elders is.

As i see it, and this is just my own 1/2 baked understanding of things, Spiritual leadership is about responsibility and usually comes with the ability to unite people and create peace. Where is the responsibility here ? Why is there so many bad feelings? Where is the Spiritual leadership ? Why are people being attacked for asking legitimate questions and why is Ben standing by and letting this happen?

it seems to me that one of the most important parts of this traditional structure is the guidence of Elders who are recognized as such by the communities where these traditions originated.

Well as I already pointed out, Ben is presenting himself as the leader of some sort of traditionally based Spiritual community on line, and as this is the case it seems fair to me he should have some accountability to the "on line' community.

Spiritual leadership is a function not a position, and in this situation it doesn't seem to be functioning very well.

Al has listed the questions, again. These are the valid questions that have been asked over and over and haven't been answered.

Moma made an excellent post. It got me to thinking about Sundance protocol and tradition and the role of a Spiritual Leader.

I've never been to a Sundance and am not familiar with it. I know people who attend, some that dance and some that support. I decided to ask them about it. I quoted the parts of Moma's post that we discussed, as well as the questions we've all been asking.

I knew that Frank Fools Crow gave Sundance to the Piscataway many years ago. They held their Sundance in Maryland up until 2005 or 2006. I've been told that Chief Tayac gave Sundance to Ben Carnes and made him a Sundance Leader. I wondered if the Piscataway had the authority to give the Sundance to anyone. Fools Crow gave it to them, but could they give it to someone else? According to the people I've talked to this week, traditionally they would not be able to give the Sundance to another person unless the Elders agreed to it. In this case it would be Lakota Elders, since Fools Crow was Lakota. Were any Lakota Elders asked? Did they get their permission? I don't know.

Before any ceremony was conducted on Ute land, Ben should have gone to their Elders and Spiritual Leaders and asked their permission. This should have been done for any ceremony, not just the Sundance. One person I talked to said that because this wasn't done prior to ceremony, bad things will happen and they will continue until permission has been received from the Ute people.

Traditionally the man who leads a Sundance is called the Sundance Leader or Holy Man. Rarely are they called a Sundance Chief; usually only when ego is involved.

A Spiritual Leader is there for the people. He is not above the people, but puts himself below the people. This position comes with a great deal of responsibility. A Spiritual Leader lives for the people. One of Ben's supporters made the statement that he didn't have to answer to anyone except the Creator. According to the people I talked to, this couldn't be further from the truth. As a Spiritual Leader, Ben does have to answer to the people.

[bls926]

OK , I don't know David Hill , and i'm not clear if he is recognized as someone who knows enough about these ways to give someone permission to practice them. I have enough of a clue to know he is a respected activist, but I'm not sure being an effective activist and knowing what is required to be a Spiritual leader are neccesarily the same thing . I don't mean any disrespect to David Hill , but I need to ask,  within the culture of the communities where Sundance originated is David Hill's endorsement sufficent ?

David Hill is an activist and a good man; he is not an Elder or Spiritual Leader. Again, based on the conversations I've had this past week with people knowledgeable in Lakota spirituality, Ben would need permission and endorsement from Lakota Elders and Spiritual Leaders.

Glenda Deer

You question Ben’s credentials as an Indian, a Sun dance Chief and a warrior, that is quite arrogant and shows your ignorance. Well, you met Ben and you know he is Indian, but you were trying to cast innuendos in a bad way to plant seeds of suspicion. You question whether he is a Sun Dance Chief, but are you a Sun Dancer?? Are you, Bren? And is it even any of your business? Why do you need to stick your nose in matters that you aren’t familiar with especially in regards to the spirituality of another. If you truly knew about Sun dances and their different protocols, you were speaking well out of your league.


You already know this history, again from David Hill, but did you ever investigate by calling Chief Tayac about Ben and how his son placed this honor upon Ben? Ben didn’t ask for it, and was told that he couldn’t say no. What did Ben do? He did what he was told and stepped to the front of the line to carry that altar. I bet that you also didn’t know that Ben did not ask to Sun dance..... Chief Billy Tayac told him to Sun dance and that he should have already been a Sun dancer. What did Ben do? He began Sun Dancing, why? Because he respected the Chief who told him to dance. And is that any of your business...you aren’t a Sun dancer... it isn’t. But if you thought something was wrong, why didn’t you bring it to Chief Tayac’s attention? Let them investigate if there is any truth to these so-called “valid questions”. Traditionally, you don’t go outside to an Internet site of self-appointed crusaders/puppets and begin questioning anyone. It isn’t your place....

Thank you. That information is really helpful and answers some of the main questions that were being asked.

I don't think anyone has wondered why Ben started Sundancing. The questions have been about Ben holding his own Sundance. I sure hope Ben had fulfilled his commitment at the Piscataway Sundance before he started leading his own in Colorado.

Glenda Deer

There is over 14 pages of a thread on Ben, and not once have they come up with any proof, in spite of all the proof and leads to investigate right in front of their noses. Ben has never went and dignified their questions with an answer. Why should he? And who are the people hiding behind the fraud board that Ben should account to? No one that Ben should be accountable to. You should have called Chief Tayac, but then David already told you Ben is legit...but STIL you carry on.

As I said earlier, I find it telling that Ben came to NAFPS in April 2008 and posted two replies when Danielle was the only one questioning him. This time, when many have doubts and questions, he couldn't or wouldn't.

I took Glenda's advice and called Chief Tayac this evening. He will not discuss Ben Carnes.

[Rattlebone]

 

I took Glenda's advice and called Chief Tayac this evening. He will not discuss Ben Carnes.

Did he say why, and what were his exact words?

 One thing I think somebody has pointed out in this thread before, is that some people may not answer or feel they need to answer anyone's questions here.

 It will not be because they are exploiters, associated with them, or anything of the likes. They will simply have the opinion of "who are you, and why do they owe you any answer at all."

 
 

[bls926]

 

I took Glenda's advice and called Chief Tayac this evening. He will not discuss Ben Carnes.

Did he say why, and what were his exact words?

 One thing I think somebody has pointed out in this thread before, is that some people may not answer or feel they need to answer anyone's questions here.

 It will not be because they are exploiters, associated with them, or anything of the likes. They will simply have the opinion of "who are you, and why do they owe you any answer at all."

 
 

This thread isn't about Chief Tayac. He wouldn't talk about Ben Carnes; nothing more needs to be said.

As for people thinking they don't need to answer questions, thinking they're above all that . . . I guess that's up to each person to decide for themself, what's in the best interest of the community as a whole.

When it comes to Ben Carnes refusing to answer questions . . . Read my previous post about how traditional people view the role of a Spiritual Leader.

Ben Carnes needs to answer these questions.

[Rattlebone]

 

I took Glenda's advice and called Chief Tayac this evening. He will not discuss Ben Carnes.

Did he say why, and what were his exact words?

 One thing I think somebody has pointed out in this thread before, is that some people may not answer or feel they need to answer anyone's questions here.

 It will not be because they are exploiters, associated with them, or anything of the likes. They will simply have the opinion of "who are you, and why do they owe you any answer at all."

 
 

This thread isn't about Chief Tayac. He wouldn't talk about Ben Carnes; nothing more needs to be said.

As for people thinking they don't need to answer questions, thinking they're above all that . . . I guess that's up to each person to decide for themself, what's in the best interest of the community as a whole.

When it comes to Ben Carnes refusing to answer questions . . . Read my previous post about how traditional people view the role of a Spiritual Leader.

Ben Carnes needs to answer these questions.

  This thread isn't about Chief Tayac. He wouldn't talk about Ben Carnes; nothing more needs to be said.

 True, but considering that his name and what he knows is a key element here, and is often mentioned in the very questions many here asked to be answered, his statements would hold a lot of weight in this discussion.

 

As for people thinking they don't need to answer questions, thinking they're above all that . . . I guess that's up to each person to decide for themself, what's in the best interest of the community as a whole.

 Well actually it's not. The Western European concept of society puts more focus on "self," then it does on the group.

 This is very much the opposite of a lot of societies, and especially Native society in which the focus is on the "group, community" etc.

 As far as the whole "thinking they are better above that" issue you bring up. That is your assumption rather then a fact.

 I know plenty of elders and people in leadership that probably would be wary of somebody just calling them out of the blue and asking a bunch of questions. I know plenty of them in person that I would be very cautious in my approach to ask them such things as to not seem disrespectful or something of that nature.

When it comes to Ben Carnes refusing to answer questions . . . Read my previous post about how traditional people view the role of a Spiritual Leader.

 Perhaps I am reading your words here wrong, but they do seem as if you are speaking to me in a condescending manner. I certainly hope that I am wrong about that?

 I don't know what tribe or community you are from as you would not answer me the last time I asked you, but I can tell you, despite what your friends tell you that I am actually Native and do participate and am part of the Native community in my area. So I don't need to go read your post, and I do not need to receive any sort of education about anything of that sort from you.

 Sure there are certain things that a very similar in traditional communities, and you could probably make a pretty good blanket statement because of that. However this is not a community, but a website dedicated to hunt down frauds and plastic Shame- ons which is perfectly alright and fine in my opinion. Still it is just a website and nothing more, and some are simply not going to answer you because of that even if they are good people.

 Again I may have read your words incorrectly here, but it did seem as if you were being very condescending towards me, and I do not appreciate that whatsoever as you know nothing about me.

 So in the future if you want me to speak to you respectfully, then I would expect the same from you.

 For instance Moma Porcupine and me have some major differences at times when we talk and debate, but she treats me with respect and we do learn from each other. When she points something out to me she does so in such a way that I realize she is trying to make a point with me, and does not mean to be insulting towards me whatsoever.

 I feel like you are talking to me here like I am some PODIA etc, and I will not tolerate it whatsoever. If you feel the need to speak to me in such a fashion, then I would expect to know something about you so I can understand why it is you feel you have the authority to speak to me in such a way, and think that you are some how better then I.