Ayahuasca Tourism, Ethics Questions, Ross Heaven

[tepol]

Last year I had the pleasure of talking to Ross Heaven whom styles himself as being an advisor on " love " and " fear ".

Here are some of the love/ly words that this master of love likes to use when challanged about his authencticity.

Note Mr Heaven likes to promote books to overcome fear ,such as one below, while clearly using it as an excuse to overcome his own ultimate fear i.e. money.

Below you can see some links to his many accomplishments , and after that below the line , his response to my original email.


Amora: The London Academy of Sex and Relationships

I am working with Amora as spiritual advisor on love, relationships, and ‘the shamanic Way of Love’. The Academy opened on April 18 this year and tickets are now available at www.amoralondon.com or via the Ticket line on 0871 230 9876. For workshops on the spirituality of love, see http://www.thefourgates.com/love.html and
http://www.thefourgates.com/simplelove.html

Lightworks. The Spiritual Practices of the Ninja. An excerpt from my book of the same name, on techniques for overcoming fear. Also online at http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAsp.../feature1.html

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________


An interesting point of view. i wonder exactly what you believe to be free -
two weeks accommodation and food in the jungle, perhaps? Or attendance on a
workshop by which i earn my living and feed my children?

An interesting view, indeed! But not so interesting that i give much of a
fuck what you think, so don't trouble yourself to write back.

You're off the mailing list as of now, though you're welcome to join it
again, of course, any time you grow up and get your head straight.

'Exploiting knowledge'?

The only knowledge i am exploiting is my own. Do you mean i have no right,
then, to teach what i have spent 20 years learning myself? Maybe your school
teachers (if you had any) have no rights to earn a living by their
profession either, even though they may have benefited you in some small way
through your education?

Or perhaps you mean that in your job you do not 'exploit' your education and
training and, furthermore, offer your employers your services for free? You
will earn a little of my respect for your views if you tell me you are not
paid in your job but do it only for love, or that, if you do not work, you
are not claiming benefits or taking hand-outs from your mother, father, or
others, but living off air and rainwater. But i doubt you can do that.

Or do you mean that i am exploiting the knowledge of others by, perhaps,
running trips to the Amazon and thereby 'raping and pillaging the innocent
jungle savages'? - because, of course, they do not need the money to feed
their children or themselves in your world of fantasy shamans. i suggest for
your education that you try to meet a shaman one day rather than preaching
to me about what they do and don't do when i have spent 20 years working
with them and therefore have some idea.

Or do you mean that charging people who travel to the Amazon for their food,
accommodation, and to pay the shamans for their services is wrong? Again,
please direct me to a website - Thomsons Travel, perhaps - which offers
holidays for free for all.

i think what you actually mean is that ( ) is too valuable to the
universe for him to have to pay his way and that the cosmos - and all of us
here on Earth as well - should make an exception for you and provide you
with our love and service completely free of charge - perhaps as your mother
does now, while bearing the cost herself.

Actually, i don't give a fuck what you think because it's clearly a crock
and un-thought-through.

You are, i'm afraid, a moron - no less so since i asked you not to write
back and you, having done so have now re-added your name to my mailing list
through automatic capture.

So, having asked for your name to be removed (which i took the time to do as
a courtesy, despite your rudeness and ignorance) you've just added yourself
back on. And i'm fucked if i'm wasting more of my time taking you off it
again, so expect lots of further emails, you asshole.

Now fuck off. You're dismissed and henceforth on 'ignore'. Go bother your
mommy for pocket money.


Blessings, ross

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Hello Tepol and welcome to the forum. Perhaps you overlooked the sticky thread asking you to introduce yourself. What did you say to Heaven that provoked such an outpouring of bile?

[zoi lightfoot]

With respect i agree with Barnaby,tell us Tepol,do you still have this "original e mail" you sent Ross Heaven
which warranted such an eliquent (not) outburst and can we see it please so we all get a rounded view of
your problem with this individual?.

[chiefytiger]

I too.... have to agree with zoi ,need to see the thread ,thank you . shre what was said k

[Ross]

Greetings!

I know I may be asking for trouble by posting here (and I'm very grateful to be listed only in the Research Needed rather than Total Frauds category!) but I thought I might just add my comments here and hopefully shed light on a few things of relevance to this thread.

Probably the first thing to say is that Tepol (if that's what he's now calling himself) has been posting the same alleged email from me ad nauseum on various sites for a few years now and has even decided to create a blog site for himself at http://no2.vox.com/library/post/ross-heaven---the-fake-shaman.html where, as you'll see, he pretends to be me and posts and answers emails in my name, presumably from a fake email account he has also created in my name. His site also features a doctored photograph of me which has probably been stolen from my legitimate website (see http://www.thefourgates.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=37 for a comparison).

His blog however offers no evidence for any of his claims or any true critique of my work and is more than juvenile. By pretending to be me in the way that he is, in fact, I wonder if it does not demonstrates either obsession or mental illness.

We at The Four Gates Foundation have answered 'Tepol' at many other forums many times, first when he was writing the same material using the name (....) then the name kinkabak. Our answer is very simple: we have no record of any communication to us at all - ever - from this individual and no record of us ever having replied to him. I see that some people here have also asked Tepol for evidence of his claims to have contacted us and received a reply from me and, as is true of the other forums where he has posted as well, he has provided no evidence at all but, when challenged, has become very quiet or (at other forums) repeated the same allegations without evidence and continued on in his unsubstantiated rants.

My conclusion, therefore, is that we are dealing with either a troublemaker or a nut. My partner at The Four Gates, who is probably a much gentler soul than me, has even offered Tepol a free healing session (more than once) to help him through whatever issues he is facing. He has responded, however, that he regards this offer as either blackmail or in some way threatening and has decided instead that his healing needs would be better served by creating fake blog sites and writing emails in my name.

So may I just state a few facts here:

1. I do not "style myself" as being a "love guru" or "advisor on love and fear". I wrote a book on Rumi and Sufi approaches to love which, in Sufi terms, is rather about spiritual connection than sexual or romantic love.

2. I do not work for Amora as an advisor on anything. I did help them out a few years ago when the academy (actually a museum and tourist attraction in London) was setting up and asked me for some input on spiritual practices since I had written the aforementioned book.

3. I do not call myself a "shaman". I have however worked with many and still do. I even teach shamanic practices for a Western audience and lead trip to Peru to work with authentic shamans, but such practices do not make anyone a "shaman" themselves, as intelligent readers here will know.

4. More fundamentally, irrespective of whatever Tepol has written in my name, I can only say again that The Four Gates has no record of any communication from him and so it is most unlikely that I or anyone else would have written such an email to him in response.

Having said that, I'd agree almost 100% with what he writes in the seemingly invented email from me he presents.

It appears to be a response to someone who has written something deliberately offensive and who should therefore expect to be answered in kind. If I am reading it correctly, it also looks as if it is written to someone who expected to get something for nothing in relation to the trips I run for participants to work with the shamans of the Amazon.

Again, I do not claim to be a "shaman" but I do work with Shipibo healers and others who make this claim. If Tepol (or anyone else) has a problem with their credentials then he is fully entitled to take it up - with them. I am perfectly happy with their abilities and the results that participants get from these healing events (and so are the participants). I have more than 10 years experience of working with rainforest shamans myself and am content that I can recognise a true healer when I see one and protect participants accordingly from those who are not what they present themselves to be.

On our trips the money we charge goes to (a) the shamans and (b) the centres we work at which are, in all cases, not-for-profit centres for healing and for preserving rainforest plant medicines and practices. I also pay myself a little money (but far less than the centres receive) to reflect (a) the work involved (usually beginning a year in advance of the trip) to promote the event, pay for its advertising, and to deal with the often complex administration and enquiries I get from participants, and (b) for the workshops and other events I run and/or organise while there, as well as being available to participants and others 24/7 for the two weeks of the programme. I make no apologies for the latter btw since without me the event would not exist at all, participants would not get the healing they need and the shamans and centres which depend on the money I bring them to preserve indigenous wisdom would not get the support or the income they need to continue.

I can well understand, therefore, why anyone would be infuriated by ignorance on such a grand scale as Tepol's and what appears to be a demand from him or a belief in his own right to get all of this for nothing, including all of the shamans' time and two weeks of healing and ceremonies.

While I emphasise once more that we have no knowledge of any communication to us from Tepol (by whatever name) and certainly no record of writing the email reply that appears at his fake 'Ross Heaven' blog site from his fake 'Ross Heaven' email address, I might in fact retain his apparently equally fake message because it does, more or less, express my views on the matter and is therefore a cut-and-paste response I might send to anyone who genuinely contacts me expecting something for nothing and who, through this, would cheat genuine shamans and healers out of income for their own gain.

I try to work with heart and integrity (although I am, of course, no saint but, like the rest of us, human) and I would therefore be genuinely interested in your thoughts on the issues this thread raises and for any sensible and useful suggestions as to how I might improve.

Best wishes
Ross Heaven

[Ross]

PS. I might add that if you check the statistcs relating to 'Tepol' you will see that he registered on April 20 2008 at 12.16.20am and made his first and only post, creating a new thread (this one) to do so, at 12.20.09am. He has spent a total of 3 minutes online as part of this forum, made 1 post and started 1 topic. This one.

I'm not entirely sure what this proves but I'm sure it proves something! Maybe about obsession.

[educatedindian]

....I'm very grateful to be listed only in the Research Needed rather than Total Frauds category....

3. I do not call myself a "shaman". I have however worked with many and still do. I even teach shamanic practices for a Western audience and lead trip to Peru to work with authentic shamans, but such practices do not make anyone a "shaman" themselves, as intelligent readers here will know....

Again, I do not claim to be a "shaman" but I do work with Shipibo healers and others who make this claim. If Tepol (or anyone else) has a problem with their credentials then he is fully entitled to take it up - with them. I am perfectly happy with their abilities and the results that participants get from these healing events (and so are the participants). I have more than 10 years experience of working with rainforest shamans myself and am content that I can recognise a true healer when I see one and protect participants accordingly from those who are not what they present themselves to be.

On our trips the money we charge goes to (a) the shamans and (b) the centres we work at which are, in all cases, not-for-profit centres for healing and for preserving rainforest plant medicines and practices. I also pay myself a little money (but far less than the centres receive) to reflect (a) the work involved (usually beginning a year in advance of the trip) to promote the event, pay for its advertising, and to deal with the often complex administration and enquiries I get from participants, and (b) for the workshops and other events I run and/or organise while there, as well as being available to participants and others 24/7 for the two weeks of the programme. I make no apologies for the latter btw since without me the event would not exist at all, participants would not get the healing they need and the shamans and centres which depend on the money I bring them to preserve indigenous wisdom would not get the support or the income they need to continue....

I try to work with heart and integrity (although I am, of course, no saint but, like the rest of us, human) and I would therefore be genuinely interested in your thoughts on the issues this thread raises and for any sensible and useful suggestions as to how I might improve.

Best wishes
Ross Heaven

Hello,
We emailed each other a long time ago on the subject of "Mama Racine" and the other names she goes by.

As you can see, there's no danger anyone would quickly be put in the Fraud category unless there's a long record of proof, eg types such as Lynn Andrews and Harley Reagan. As a general practice every person being researched goes to Research Needed first.

Yes, we can all see Tepol/whatever his actual name was has not helped clear up the subjects at all and we should pay him no mind, but...

There is a thread mentioning you briefly I would like your response to.
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=45.15

Also, the trips you organize and the centers you run. There are quite a few outfits doing "spiritual tourism" in Latin America and I have yet to see one I would call ethical. (Obviously I don't claim to have seen them all.) If you don't mind, I'd like to hear more about exactly what you offer and the people you work with. What kind of healing is offered, and how are potential clients screened?

[Ross]

Thanks for your message. This is the kind of input I'd like as (cliche I know) but I am keen to improve the trips I run to Peru. I'm interested in your opinion.

I do not personally call these 'spiritual tourism' and try to steer clear of such enterprises. The events are offered as healing opportunities and possibilities for self-exploration and discovery. Clients are met in Iquitos and we travel together to a jungle centre where we remain for 14 days, working purely with jungle medicine. There are no staged events (such as trips to watch 'the Bora' dancing or 'visiting places of power' or 'exploring portals and vortices' etc) which you find with spiritual tours. We simply work with the shamans who prepare the medicines and run the ceremonies as they have always done. People may take part in as many of as few ceremonies as they wish but seven ayahuasca ceremonies are on offer. They also have one-to-one consultations with the shamans each day, traditional floral baths, traditional jungle-style saunas, and a traditional plant diet is also available using herbs and plants which have healing effects.

Along with this I offer workshops and seminars each day to put into context the healings of the shamans and the experiences people may have. Subjects might include icraos, for example (the songs of the shaman during ceremonies) and the whole idea of 'spirit songs' which are common to many cultures not just those of the Amazon. I don't claim to be a shaman and seminars are not provided so I can be 'shamanic'! They are offered for elucidation.

I work with a few different Amazonian centres, all of them with not-for-profit status and which exist as areas of biodiversity to collect, plant, preserve and maintain rainforest plants and protect their futures. I also work with a variety of shamans, mostly from the Shipibo. I tend to eschew the 'superstar shamans' and work with simple men and women who have years of experience with jungle medicine. Having said that, I ran UK workshops last year with Guilermo Aravelo who is regarded as a bit of a 'supesrtar' and there was nothing wrong with his medicine or attitude to healing. I just prefer to give 'the little guy' a chance when I can so that all the rewards don't go to a few individuals based on their fame.

It is my policy that the events I run will always be the cheapest available for retreats of this kind because I do not want price to be a limiting factor for people who need the healing that an event like this might provide (I hasten to add, however, that this event is not presented to anyone as a 'miracle cure' or a 'guaranteed healing'. It is offered as a healing experience since (a) ayahuasca is regarded by the shamans as a jungle healer and (b) I want to attract participants who will approach the event with a serious intent, not just to 'gon on a trip' or 'take ayahuasca). For 14 days therefore (including transfers to the centre, accommodation, food, ceremonies, consultations and all other events mentioned above) the cost of this programme is £1250. Even that may sound a lot on paper but it's actually cheaper than an annual holiday for many people and, according to my research, it's almost £1000 cheaper than the people I've found who are offerring remotely similar programmes of a 'spiritual tourism' nature. Plus people are entitled to a £100 discount if two or more travel together and a 5% reduction on the combined cost of this trip and my journey to the Andes to work with the shamans there if they book both events together. It is possible, therefore, for an individual bringing a small group to get their trip for just a few hundred pounds, as is the case this year. Next year I am also hoping to introduce a bursary scheme for people who need healing but cannot afford the trip at any price.

The centres I work with are paid well and at the price they, not I, set. From my calculations about 80% of income will go to them and to the shamans. The rest is used for things like tips and gratuities to shamans and centre staff, advertising the programme, getting there myself and so on. While I would love to make a profit  (since I need to live too!) most years I actually make very little but that's ok because making money is not the primary aim of this trip.

As for screening people, that's a difficult one given that people are coming to the Amazon to take part in healing events so I don't want to exclude them if I can help it because, for example, their approach might seem to suggest that they have a problem, since the event might actually help with it. On the other hand I don't want to take people along who are likely to be disruptive either so all participants make a medical declaration and state (in confidence) any drugs, treatments and conditions they may be taking or have and I make a decision from there, consulting with the shamans and the centres I work at if need be. If necessary they are also invited for interview or discussion prior to making or accepting their booking. Once the trip is over they are also sent a 'quality check' questionairre and invited to give their feedback.

Here are some of their comments from previous years:

I struggle to find words to describe the experience. It was beyond words: one of the most intense and exhilarating experiences I have had in my adult life. It allowed me to really connect at a deeper level whilst opening new doors, perceptions, realities, and opportunities I didn’t consider possible. Highly recommended! Would I do it again? Yes, next year! I’m already planning to return. Alexia, UK

The Magical Earth experience was fun, interesting, relaxing, healthy, and most of all an opportunity for spiritual and emotional healing. I was especially impressed by the group leader’s gentle and supportive yet unobtrusive style. It will always be remembered as a highlight of my life. Kathryn, Australia

People ask “How was the trip” - and what do you answer? No words can do it justice. There are too many experiences to mention and none would shed light on my true feelings. The stillness I feel now and the lack of rush is incredible. What we experienced was something so special - and life just keeps getting better. Linzi, UK

A blissful and inspiring couple of weeks where everything seemed touched with magic! It was perfect. Kirsty, UK

How rare to have our expectations exceeded in so many ways! The two weeks were beyond my expectations and I’m recommending it to many people. It was truly life-changing. Mike, UK

Thank you for such wonderful, colourful, and mind and heart-opening experiences. I will treasure the memories and insights forever. Katherine, New Zealand

Thank you from every depth of my heart for the loving, profound, and lasting healing I received from you and the shamans in Peru. You gave me back my life. Stafford, UK

A phenomenal experience, wisely and brilliantly organized with humility, compassion and connection to everything and everyone - not to mention many good laughs along the way! But definitely NOT an idle, New Age walk in the clouds. Very real, very practical, very empowering - something you can take home with you. There’s nothing I would recommend more than this experience for any spiritual seeker. Kyle, USA

I hope that answers your questions? I am very open to any constructive criticism or suggestions for improvements.

Best wishes
Ross Heaven
PS I will look at your other link now.

[Ross]

OK, I looked at your other link. Not sure whether you want my comments here or in that thread but I'll post them here and no doubt you'll move them if I'm wrong.

I had an interest in vodou since my degree (psychology, anthropology, etc) where we studied it and I was struck by the lack of real information on it and also the fear (or prejudice) surrounding what I took to be a more-or-less 'standard' shamanic practice. Some years later I was invited (for a price of course, which I was happy to pay) to initiate (kanzo) with Racine. I decided to do so out of interest not because of any burning desire to become a priest.

I received several emails at the time from people I had never even met warning me away from Racine and describing her as a fraud and mentally ill but I went ahead anyway, preferring to learn by my own experience and give people the benefit of the doubt (plus there are a lot of 'vodou wars' and competition in the tradition, so who do you really trust until you've had the experience yourself?) Me and my fellow initiates were somewhat suspicious of some of her approaches during the kanzo, it is true, since they seemed non-standard and her 'possession trances' (where she called the spirits in to speak through her) were, frankly, laughable. But then again all traditions (perhaps especially vodou which is very adaptable) do evolve and those within them will also develop their own style of practice, so I was disinclined to make judgements at that time.

That was in 2000 and Racine also seemed quite well-behaved compared, for example, with some of the stories I'd heard.

My book Vodou Shaman came out in 2003 and to coincide with it I organised a trip to Haiti for a group of Westerners to experience vodou ceremonies and learn more about its practices. This was not an initiation journey.

During it, however, Racine was very badly behaved and seemed to exhibit qualities of mental illness, just as I'd heard. She began - literally - screaming at participants on day one, for example, took to sitting in a throne surrounded by 'bodyguards' (who also, when she was not present, described her to me and others as "mad", but who she kept dependent on her for the money she gave them) and I know of at least two times when she stole money from me and from one of her 'employees' (a herbalist I had agreed a fee with in US dollars but who she paid in Haitian dollars - about 1/7th of the value). She also attempted to have some of the people present whipped (me included - I'm not joking!) and was constantly smoking skunk which did nothing to stabilise her mood.

I got everyone safely out and, on return to the UK, noticed that she was using her association with me to promote herself on various web platforms ("my initiate son, the famous author", etc - I already had other books out then too). I had already told her that I would never work with her again and would no longer be part of her Society (which I had never signed up for in the first place, incidentally) so I made a simple announcement at these forums to disassociate myself from her and that was when the s**t hit the fan and she began to claim that she'd stripped me of my rank in vodou.

Actually, that was fine by me since I didn't kanzo in the first place to become a priest; I did it to experience vodou and learn more about he tradition. In fact, however, the rank of priest is not given by the initiator in vodou, it is given by the spirits, so the fatal flaw in Racine's cunning plan is that once a title is given it can't be taken away. And so I remain a priest of vodou while, frankly, I have no particular interest in being one and certainly don't 'practice' vodou or have any form of congregation, etc. I don't even teach vodou on workshops apart from one or two herbal techniques which have nothing to do with the priesthood but based on my studies with the hrbalist I mentioned earlier.

Racine's reason for allegedly stripping my rank has usually been that I "revealed the secrets of vodou" in my book. However, she has not been able to name a single secret revealed and when the book has been read by any other individuals who do not have her axe to grind (including members of the vodou clergy) they can't find a single one. In fact I think I say in it that, expressly, you won't find any vodou secrets here. My intention in writing it was to get away from the prejudice I'd encountered in my university studies and make vodou accessible and understandable as a shamanic practice to a Western audience. That's all.

Racine now looks to have fallen on hard times, perhaps (probably) because of her treatment of others. A few years ago her room in Haiti was burned to the ground in an arson attack, then two of her American initiates were jailed in Haiti because she had sold them human remains dug up from a local burial ground, and she had to run back to America in the dead of night to avoid being arrested herself. I'm told she now works as a janitor while continuing to claim to be the 'queen of vodou' and get into all sorts of fights and aggressive attacks on other on various web forums.

Is she a fraud? I'd say so, although some of her initiation practices are genuine and the passwords, etc, are recognised by genuine priests and priestesses in Haiti. That is, if you turn up at another peristyle in Haiti and use the passwords and salutes you have been given, you will be allowed in. Ask the priest what he thinks of Racine when you get in, however, and he will tell you that she is much-despised in the country and that no-one respects her. So it's a bit confused. In my opinion she's selling a mish-mash (with the emphasis on selling) and certainly guilty of cultural theft. She's also delusional and dangerous.

As for Peter Aziz, he's well known in the UK for being as crazy as she is. He was on TV a couple of years back selling 'cancer cures'. He also runs ayahuasca workshops and I can't tell you how many people I've seen who have needed healing afterwards from the damage he's done to them. I heard a rumour (which maybe needs further investigation) about a year ago that he was being questioned by the police for manslaughter following one ayahuasca ceremony. I have no real information on this though and, frankly, I'm uninterested. The greater distance I can put between Racine and her clan and myself the happier I'll be!

Oh, and on the book title btw can I just say that you shouldn't blame a book for its cover. I've heard some criticism (from Racine, for example) that calling my book Vodou Shaman implies arrogance on my part; as if I'm presenting myself as a - or even The - vodou shaman. In fact, the book was never meant to be called that. The title was changed by the publishers, something that happens quite commonly in publishing and which authors have little or no control over. Inner Traditions (my publisher here) are particularly prone to this and have changed the title of 3 out of the 4 books I've published with them after the manuscript was delivered. I'm not sure I like the new title any more than some of my critics but it's better and more accurate than some of the things they've done to the others!

Any more questions on this, let me know.

Ross Heaven

[Ross]

PS (sorry for the constant PSes!) but I've just read the Racine/Aziz thread more fully and came across a post by greanleaf about ayahuasca etc. Maybe you'd like my comments on that too?

I did write an article for a UK pagan magazine some years back. I can't remember the magazine's name or much about the article now but it had something to do with plant spirit shamanism, British 'dreaming herbs' or something like that, and it did mention ayahuasca. The main thrust of it, as I recall, is that while ayahuasca has specific dreaming attributes there have been plants in our own 'shamanic' past which have also been used for dreaming or purposes of spiritual connection and 'spirit flight'; among them vervain and valerian, as greenleaf mentions. That, however (and rather obviously I would have thought) is not meant ot imply that they produce the same effects as ayahuasca.

I didn't see the magazine when it came out so can't say how what I wrote was edited or presented, so have no comment to make on whether I was not clear enough in my article or whether sub-editing might have changed the meaning of the information I was presenting and made it less clear, leading to any confusion.

I did get an email from someone who had read the article who wanted to know how these plants were like ayahuasca. Perhaps it was greenleaf. As he or she says "he seemed to forget he had written that" True - if I ever did write that; see my comments above. I write several articles and have written 10 or more books and I don't recall every sentence or paragraph. Greenleaf aslo says that I replied that "he meant they would be "entheogenic"". True. The word 'entheogen' was coined in the 70s by ethnobotanists including Schultzes and Wasson to differentiate plants like this from those that produce "hallucinations". ‘In a strict sense,’ they wrote, ‘only those vision-producing drugs that can be shown to have figured in shamanic or religious rites would be designated entheogens.’

The inclusion of the word ‘drugs’ in their definition is unfortunate, because it has connotations of its own, of course: “to be drugged” and therefore out of control or powerless, etc. Perhaps ‘substances’ would have been a better choice. But still, the description as a whole is useful. The literal meaning of the word entheogen is "that which causes God to be within an individual", or which "creates the divine within us". Perhaps “that which stimulates or reveals the divine, or which causes us to remember our own divinity” would, again, have been better still.

It seems to me most likely therefore that 'dreaming plants' like valerian, taken with proper ritual and intent would certainly qualify as entheogenic.

Greenleaf remarks that "he [that is, I] tried to get out of it!" No. I said and say again here that plants may have entheogenic and dreaming qualities and not have, by definition, to create the same exact effects as ayahuasca or other more visionary plants. I apologise if I was not as clear in my reply as greenleaf might have liked but, again, I would have thought the distinction is obvious. I also receive quite a few emails each day from various people, some with questions, and if I wrote elaborate responses to each I'd never get anything else done.

Greenleaf also remarks "I mean would you trust this bloke to take mind altering brews in the jungle with  if he doesn't even have expert knowledge of UK/European plants?" Well, its rather a non-sequiter since I suppose a person could be expert on jungle medicines and not have expert knowledge of European plants - like, for example, the shamans of Peru with whom I work. However, I don't believe I was claiming to be an "expert" on anything; I was simply writing an article on some of the uses of plant medicines in dreaming practices. Ayahuasca would be one; vervain might be another, but all plants have different effects and I'd cauthon anyone against drinking vervain tea and expecting an ayahuasca vision to result! But, once again, I'd have thought that was obvious.

As for whether anyone should trust "this bloke" to take mind altering brews in the jungle with, I can only say that people do and have received beneficial results from doing so, as some of the participant comments in my earlier post show. So it's up to you. Trust me or not; your life and your choices are yours.

Ross Heaven

[educatedindian]

Thanks for your message. This is the kind of input I'd like as (cliche I know) but I am keen to improve the trips I run to Peru. I'm interested in your opinion.

1. I do not personally call these 'spiritual tourism' and try to steer clear of such enterprises. The events are offered as healing opportunities and possibilities for self-exploration and discovery. Clients are met in Iquitos and we travel together to a jungle centre where we remain for 14 days, working purely with jungle medicine. There are no staged events (such as trips to watch 'the Bora' dancing or 'visiting places of power' or 'exploring portals and vortices' etc) which you find with spiritual tours. We simply work with the shamans who prepare the medicines and run the ceremonies as they have always done. People may take part in as many of as few ceremonies as they wish but seven ayahuasca ceremonies are on offer. They also have one-to-one consultations with the shamans each day, traditional floral baths, traditional jungle-style saunas, and a traditional plant diet is also available using herbs and plants which have healing effects.

2. Along with this I offer workshops and seminars each day to put into context the healings of the shamans and the experiences people may have. Subjects might include icraos, for example (the songs of the shaman during ceremonies) and the whole idea of 'spirit songs' which are common to many cultures not just those of the Amazon. I don't claim to be a shaman and seminars are not provided so I can be 'shamanic'! They are offered for elucidation....

3. As for screening people, that's a difficult one given that people are coming to the Amazon to take part in healing events so I don't want to exclude them if I can help it because, for example, their approach might seem to suggest that they have a problem, since the event might actually help with it. On the other hand I don't want to take people along who are likely to be disruptive either so all participants make a medical declaration and state (in confidence) any drugs, treatments and conditions they may be taking or have and I make a decision from there, consulting with the shamans and the centres I work at if need be. If necessary they are also invited for interview or discussion prior to making or accepting their booking.

4. Once the trip is over they are also sent a 'quality check' questionairre and invited to give their feedback.
Here are some of their comments from previous years....

I hope that answers your questions? I am very open to any constructive criticism or suggestions for improvements.

Best wishes
Ross Heaven

I added numbers to make it clearer what I'm responding to.

1. I called these class of tours that. Most of the operators tend to choose far more pompous names, suggesting that one can and will become a shaman after taking part, though I don't suggest you are doing that.

"Healing opportunities"? What are you claiming can be healed exactly?

2. That disclaimer is important, but I hope you realize every would-be "white shaman" who comes to you will turn around and claim to have become a healer after taking part.

Have you thought about a strong disclaimer discouraging people from doing just that?

3. This seems vague to me, and very unlikely to catch the type of people I just described, along with those who just want a "cool trip". And are the NDN healers themselves screening participants with a translator present?

4. That seems more designed to insure the business keeps going than anything else, and the comments you posted does suggest many people did just go to have that "cool trip" and that was all they cared about.

If a traditional healer chooses to heal someone outside the community, that is something I support strongly, such as when I've seen white veterans with PTSD get helped by sweatlodges done with their Native vet buddies. But so many of the comments seem to suggest they just went there for the experience, and that doesn't sit well with me.

[educatedindian]

1. I received several emails at the time from people I had never even met warning me away from Racine and describing her as a fraud and mentally ill but I went ahead anyway, preferring to learn by my own experience and give people the benefit of the doubt (plus there are a lot of 'vodou wars' and competition in the tradition, so who do you really trust until you've had the experience yourself?) Me and my fellow initiates were somewhat suspicious of some of her approaches during the kanzo, it is true, since they seemed non-standard and her 'possession trances' (where she called the spirits in to speak through her) were, frankly, laughable....

Is she a fraud? I'd say so, although some of her initiation practices are genuine and the passwords, etc, are recognised by genuine priests and priestesses in Haiti. That is, if you turn up at another peristyle in Haiti and use the passwords and salutes you have been given, you will be allowed in. Ask the priest what he thinks of Racine when you get in, however, and he will tell you that she is much-despised in the country and that no-one respects her. So it's a bit confused. In my opinion she's selling a mish-mash (with the emphasis on selling) and certainly guilty of cultural theft. She's also delusional and dangerous.

2. As for Peter Aziz, he's well known in the UK for being as crazy as she is. He was on TV a couple of years back selling 'cancer cures'. He also runs ayahuasca workshops and I can't tell you how many people I've seen who have needed healing afterwards from the damage he's done to them. I heard a rumour (which maybe needs further investigation) about a year ago that he was being questioned by the police for manslaughter following one ayahuasca ceremony. I have no real information on this though and, frankly, I'm uninterested. The greater distance I can put between Racine and her clan and myself the happier I'll be!

3. The title was changed by the publishers, something that happens quite commonly in publishing and which authors have little or no control over. Inner Traditions (my publisher here) are particularly prone to this and have changed the title of 3 out of the 4 books I've published with them after the manuscript was delivered. I'm not sure I like the new title any more than some of my critics but it's better and more accurate than some of the things they've done to the others!

Ross Heaven

NUmbers added again.

1. That fits with what I recall finding about her. That's posted elsewhere on the forum, perhaps also in the yahoo group and on Bryant Holman's curandero yahoo group.

2. What we have on Aziz I think is also spread over the same three forums.

3. Really? Have you thought about simply switching publishers? I admit my published works are all on academic presses, who are generally quite good and helpful and respectful of the author's intent in their work. Writing for profit something quite alien to me, so it's hard for me to imagine sticking with a publisher who would keep doing that.

[Ross]

The Amazon thread

Numbers in return:

1. I confess I have never heard of any spiritual tour which claims to make one a shaman. Perhaps you could point me to one so I can read it? The shamans we work with have, in most cases, worked as healers for 20, 30 - 50 years and followed (and still follow) plant diets sometimes lasting years in themselves, and even they say that they are still learning. I'd be fascinated to know how attending any 'spiritual tour' for a few weeks could make anyone a shaman and I'm sure I'd enjoy reading about it if you can show me a website where people are making that claim. We're certainly not and 'being a shaman' has nothing to do with what we offer.

2. Again, I can only say that is not my experience. I can say with absolute honesty, in fact, that not a single person who has joined me to work with Amazon or Andean shamans has returned home believing they are shamans or healers themselves. Quite the contrary. From our work together they are quite clear on what 'being a shaman' involves and have great respect for those they have met. I have had experience with a few people who thought they were already great healers and perhaps 'shamans' before they even went to Peru, however, but the experience itself and the genuine shamans they meet put them straight on that! One example that comes to mind was a woman two (or three?) years ago who believed herself to be an initated fire-keeper and was full of Western nonsense. She returned to our shamans after our trip ended and followed a plant diet for a further three months - and she is a lot humbler and more respectful now! I think it just took her a little more time than the others to get beyond her ego and see the efforts and skills required to be a true shaman and I can forgive her for that. She is the only case I can think of where ego got the better of someone, but even that sorted itself out. Other than her the people I have worked with have been delightful. But, in any case, there is nothing about our event which would - or claims to - make someone 'a shaman'.

3. I'm not screening people on the basis of whether they want to become healers or not. That is irrelevent to me. I would also like to become an astronaut but I don't think it's ever going to happen. What we want and what's likely are different things and, again, my programme is clear that we do not teach people to become 'shamans'. In itself, however, it also seems fine to me for people to aspire to be healers. If they have the application to learn and the genuine desire to heal I've personally nothing against helping them. However, I am quite clear on paper and in person with those people I talk to that what I offer is not a 'spiritual tour' and they won't become shamans at the end of it. If an apprenticeship is what they are looking for then it will take years and they will have to find shamans they can trust and who will take them as students. To answer your question: I liaise with the shamans and the centre throughout the process of the participant application and each day at camp our shamans have one-to-one consultations of about an hour with participants with a translator present and we have a daily conference too in case of any issues or problems which may arise. So, yes, the shamans are fully involved.

4. Really? I would have thought it's important to ask people for their comments so that the event can be assessed and improved where necessary. Of course, I also ask the shamans and the centre for their feedback too. I am also delighted if people have a 'cool trip'. I definitely don't want anybody to have a lousy time! But if they tell me they have problems I fix them. That is what the feedback is for. I perhaps should also have said that the questionairre they receive is five pages long and covers all aspects of their trip.

In response to your final (unnumbered comment) the healers we work with have of course chosen to work with people outside their community. We do not force them to be there! It is a service they already offer and, as you probably know, in Peru, at least, the curanderos are very happy to offer healing to all who come to them, I think rather like Western doctors who are not going to turn people away based on colour, character or other personal factors if they have a healing need. Granted, they may not always like some of the people they treat (though I've received no complaints from our shamans) but the purpose of being a shaman in Peru is to be in service.

The people who come on these trips are, of course, also coming for 'an experience'. It's an experience they won't get elsewhere and which (irrespective of what some of their comments might imply to you) they get a lot out of. So do the shamans and the centres I work with - and I don't just mean money by which they sustain their communities and protect the forest and the plants around them. There is often a genuine and useful exchange. For example, I have had British and American herbalists on my trips who have come with an interest in plant medicines and who the shamans have been interested to talk to and learn about equivalent Western plants which do a similar job to those of the rainforest.

With respect then, while I hear that what I do doesn't "sit well" with you, I haven't really heard any reasons why you believe that what I am doing is wrong or why I should be regarded as a 'fraud' or even a potential fraud. I'm quite opne about what I do, I'm not offering spiritual tours, I'm not suggesting that people will end up as shamans from attending them, I'm not exploiting or misleading anyone, and I'm offering what I, the shamans, the centres, and my participants regard as a worthwhile experience, so it sits very well with me.

I did say earlier that I'd be receptive to any genuine criticisms and suggestions for improvmenets but, again with respect, I haven't heard any yet. I remain open to them, however.

Best wishes
Ross Heaven

[Ross]

The Racine/Aziz thread.

Numbers again:

2. It may have been wrong of me to mention a rumour that Aziz was being questioned for manslaughter following an ayahuasca ceremony. I have been sent the following which purports to be a statement from Aziz and appears at a website or blog (not his own), for example here, although the link to the story itself looks broken: http://theyliketo.giveittomeraw.com/post/36250669/peter-aziz-local-healer-arrested-for-no-good-reason.

In his statement Aziz says he is a victim of police heavyhandedness in relation to some of his healing claims and practices and his use of ayahuasca.

Here is my story.

On the 8th January this year, the police came to my house with a warrant for my arrest and to search the premises. 6 police officers spent two hours going through my property, seizing herbs, flower essences, sacred oils used for religious purposes, my computer and address books. I was held at Weston Super Mare police station, where they also took my clothes. They told me I was under suspicion of using controlled substances. I assumed they were concerned about the ayahuasca, so I pointed out the letter from the home office that was on my computer, proving that it was not illegal, and also a report from the United Nations convention on psychotropic substances, which clearly excludes ayahuasca from the controlled substance list. As well as this, I had emailed this very police station before running any ceremonies, to make sure they had no objections.

I was released on bail for 6 weeks with the following conditions:

1) Not to leave the country

2) Not to have contact with anyone who has attended my ceremonies

3) Not to perform any healing or spiritual ceremonies of any kind.

4) Not to give anyone any plant substances of any kind.

Since then, bail has been extended 3 times, as they do not have a case against me, but they say they have not finished their investigations. They still have my address book, and with the above restrictions, I have been unable to do business for several months, and have lost £14000 to date. The persecution continues, even though they have absolutely no evidence against me, like a modern day witch hunt.

This has come about after persecution by a small group of doctors called health watch, working for the Codex Alimentarius. More evidence that these Nazi war criminals will stop at nothing to destroy natural health.

Regards

Peter

2. It is generally a contractual point with all commercial publishers that they may choose the title of a book, it's cover design, and so on. Authors get a say in this but depending on the publisher it counts for very little. I protested loud and long about one change of title and it got me exactly nowhere. It's very common, not only with Inner Traditions.

Your comment about "writing for profit" is amusing. I imagine that since you have no experience of commercial publishing but work with academic publishers you are prone to the same beliefs as many others about the money to be made from publishing books like mine. I've heard some very amusing stories about how I'm "raking in money" and "live in a mansion"!

In fact, in the mind-body-spirit area there are very few authors who could even survive by writing books. There have been some exceptions, of course, which catch the mood of the day and become best sellers, but they are rare. Probably the most famous is The Celestine Prophecy which, I believe, sold tens of thousands. Most m-b-s publishers regard annual sales of about 5,000 copies to be average-to-good however and the author has a standard contract to receive 10-12% of the cover price in royalties - and that's on net not gross sales. So if your cover price is $10 and you're on 10% royalty and manage to sell 5,000 copies a year, well you do the math! And bear in mind that royalties are on the net value so the publisher takes his costs (sales, distribution, advertising, etc) out of the figures first. A royalty cheque of $1000 a year would be more like it (and actually good) for most authors, given the figures above.

Now deduct the author's costs (for example, in my case, flights to Haiti and/or Peru for research purposes, food, accommodation, payments to shamans, guides and translators while there and so on) - plus the year it may take to actually write the book - and in many cases authors I know are still waiting to break even several years after their book came out!

I think there are few m-b-s authors who write for the money (in fact, I gave a good % of the income my first book to a rainforest charity). In my case I write because I am interested in the work and happy to pass on information in the hope that it may also be of use to others. I don't want to sound overly-virtuous: I'd love to make some money since I have bills to pay like the next guy, but so far the mansion on the hill is having to wait!

Ross Heaven

[educatedindian]

The Amazon thread

Numbers in return:

1. I confess I have never heard of any spiritual tour which claims to make one a shaman. Perhaps you could point me to one so I can read it?

2. One example that comes to mind was a woman two (or three?) years ago who believed herself to be an initated fire-keeper and was full of Western nonsense. She returned to our shamans after our trip ended and followed a plant diet for a further three months - and she is a lot humbler and more respectful now!

3. I liaise with the shamans and the centre throughout the process of the participant application and each day at camp our shamans have one-to-one consultations of about an hour with participants with a translator present and we have a daily conference too in case of any issues or problems which may arise. So, yes, the shamans are fully involved.

4. I am also delighted if people have a 'cool trip'. I definitely don't want anybody to have a lousy time!

...With respect then, while I hear that what I do doesn't "sit well" with you,

5. I haven't really heard any reasons why you believe that what I am doing is wrong or why I should be regarded as a 'fraud' or even a potential fraud.

1. Simply use the search function of our site to look for "spiritual tourism" or even "Amazon" will turn them up.

2 and 3. That's very good to hear.

4. I think you misunderstood me. Not as in enjoyable experience, but as in people going on this for the same reasons most take LSD or psilocybin. A drug trip, even if they dress it up as a search for englightenment. Something they'll brag about to their fellow drug users back home, "Whoa, it was radical du-ude."

Even if the people that come to you are not regular drug users, it does bother me much like it bothers me when whites want to use a sweatlodge "just for the experience" or something equally frivolous. If they are not in need of healing, doing it just to have the experience seems like recreational drug use at worst, wealthy folks feeling superior about when they went slumming in the third world at best.

5. I haven't suggested you're a fraud, and honestly, I don't think you are at all. Most of the marks of a fraud, numerous lies, profit motive, ego, cultlike following, etc, aren't there in you or what you do.

I have some concerns or disagreements about some aspects of what you do, but that isn't nearly the same thing.

I've seen so many of these less than ethical operators that it frankly amazes me to find someone who isn't operating like that.