Ayahuasca Tourism, Ethics Questions, Ross Heaven

[Moma_porcupine]

Hi Ross

I really appreciate your offer to try and answer some of the questions about ayahuasca tourism generally , and your suggestion you might be able to help find some solutions to any remaining concerns if they are legitimate.

Also, just as a thought: for those people who are singled out for investigation but who might, like myself, be keen to work with this forum, perhaps there is scope for the development of some sort of 'council' here offering suggestions for improvement as a positive  step forward? For example, again with respect, I have heard vague criticisms of my work here but little by way of practical  suggestions for what an alternative and better 'good practice' might be.

More generally though, if this forum is for the advocation of positive change rather than just criticism, might it not be useful to offer informed opinion and advice to all those practitioners who are criticised for their work as a first step in place of pure condemnation and in the hope that they can change - i.e. for this group to act in an advisory capacity as well

One of the things your responses have reminded me of, is how surprised I have felt that up until now nobody I have seen listed in research needed has ever responded in what would seem to be a reasonable way , which to me would be saying "hey I didn't realize there was concerns but now you point this out I want to be sure i am not a part of the problem - what can I do ....?

This is basicly what you just did.

I've wondered about this before, and i think the main reason for this is the people who get discussed here almost always either don't care that they are offending people or they know they are just making stuff up and don't care if they decieve people. People like that aren't really interested in "making improvements' or addressing legitimate concerns.

The reason I say most the people discussed here simply don't care if they are doing something that is really offensive or decietful is because people who have spent any time in North American Native communities would have a hard time not knowing what they are doing is extremely controversial at best .

Almost all Elders strongly object to stuff like charging money for the traditional ceremonies. When Elders hear about someone advertising themselves as healers or charging a set fee for healing , they usually have something to say about this that makes it clear they disapprove. It is generally understood that people need to have been properly taught and it isn't OK to make stuff up or mix and match traditions from one tribe with another and when Elders see this they usually get concerned. Almost all the Elders i have ever known expressed concern or strong disapproval if they heard of a non native person leading ceremonies - even if these Elders didn't mind sometimes including non native people in a ceremony . There has also been numerous widely published statements on these topics asking people who are doing these things to stop.

If someone has gone so far as to be advertising these sorts of things on the internet, if they have ever had any contact with actual Native people , they have almost certainly been repeatedly told what they are doing is very offensive. If they are still doing this, it's usually because they don't care, or they are so completely in a fantasy world they don't know and probably wouldn't notice if a train ran over them.     

And often the only way to improve this , would be to simply stop doing it, and not much else. It's kind of like a pimp asking how they could improve hiring out your daughter. Usually it just needs to stop.

In the case of ayahuasca tourism the situation is different as it isn't so clear - at least from afar -  what is considered respectful or appropriate with regards to the use of ayahuasca.

I would like to take you up on your offer and ask some questions, and explore concerns , but I don't want to waste your time with silly questions or waste this opprotunity by not taking the time to try and make sure what I ask is well thought out, and will cover at least some of the main issues in a balanced way.

It may take a couple days to put that together so I hope you will stick around !

Once again I want to say I appreciate that you are willing to explore this and see if there is ways to encourage respectful interactions between the cultures involved.   

[RDR]

[MODERATOR'S NOTE:

Squid and RDR are the same person. They have the same ISP, not to mention identical writing styles. "They" need to explain the multiple sockpuppet IDs.]

AIM has never been welcome on [a few] reservations and is to this day not condoned by [some] traditional leaders. (Look whose names are MISSING from any AIM decalration too!) To give the impression that AIM and tradtional leaders (or anybody else in NDN America) are all working in unison [in my opinion]is grossly misleading - and illustrates just how hard it is to legitimattly present a "united front." If we can't do that here (and I am for both AIM and traditional leaders - caught in the middle - then there is no reason to believe any effort by outsiders, like the one effort by a white man referenced above -
(http://www.amazonteam.org/umiyac-declaration.html)
is going to make things better in south America. I say let's address the issues at home first - then we can have a foundation to stand on and a model to offer others. Other wise, like [I said as MY OTHER SOCKPUPPET] we're just meddling in another's land while our own is still in cayos.

By the way Al [in my opinion], Plants are NOT "drugs"; you said:

"Some ayahuasca tour operators aren't even going to actual NDN healers. They're going to any mestizo who can pass as an NDN and will hand out the drug for profit."

[Note: Ayahuasca IS a drug. That is a fact.]

I understand that Ayahuasca is also freely available in Europe, with [a few of the llaeged] shamans' blessing, and for use by those Europeans who were entrusted with that knowledge and access. [A few shamans have said] they WANT outsiders to use their plants - with respect, like mr ross seems to be doing.
Al, are you also saying that mestizos can't be shaman?

[Numerous lies removed.]

[Ross]

Thank you for your message moma_porcupine. I am interested to see your questions and to contribute to any fair discussion of ayahuasca and the traditions of Peru in so far as I can do so based on my experience of the country, its people, its shamans and medicines.

However, I am still uncomfortable with the contents of this current thread and do not think giving it its new title solves the problems I outlined before:

This thread still begins with the “love guru” nonsense from ‘Tepol’ which has nothing at all to do with ayahuasca. Before I even joined this group, three people (Barnaby, Zoi and chiefytiger) had some concerns about the veracity of the points ‘Tepol’ was making and asked for evidence. None was ever forthcoming and as I later remarked ‘Tepol’ (known at other forums by other names) has spent a total of 3 minutes as part of this forum, made only 1 post and started 1 topic (the one which began this thread), which does not add to his credibility.

educatedindian has also said on March 20 that “we can all see Tepol/whatever his actual name was has not helped clear up the subjects at all and we should pay him no mind.”

Since this thread has moved on to other things, therefore, and since ‘Tepol’ has been dismissed, I see no reason for his post to remain here (or, for that matter, my response to it). I would therefore respectfully ask it to be removed. As educatedindian remarks on March 25 “We also sometimes put a thread into Archives with a big disclaimer NO LONGER A SUBJECT OF CONCERN” and I would suggest that there is every case for doing that here with that particular message.

I was then asked by educatedindian to comment on issues regarding a vodou thread ostensibly about Racine and Aziz, which I did, prompting a further reply from educatedindian that “That fits with what I recall finding about her”. Again, therefore, my response seems bonafide but vodou, as you are aware, also has nothing to do with the ayahuasca traditions of the Amazon so, again, I think it is confusing and of little value to retain posts about vodou here. Perhaps they can be removed to the vodou thread in question or placed elsewhere in order to tidy things up here?

As regards the various posts here which do relate to ayahuasca, several people have remarked on what appears to be the non-fraudulent nature of my activities. Among them:

Educatedindian: “I haven't suggested you're a fraud, and honestly, I don't think you are at all. Most of the marks of a fraud, numerous lies, profit motive, ego, cultlike following, etc, aren't there in you or what you do... I've seen so many of these less than ethical operators that it frankly amazes me to find someone who isn't operating like that”

Moma_porcupine: “I've been reading through this and like educatedindian I have been impressed to see you have enough integrity to address peoples concerns without trying to side step divert or pretend... As far as I can see anyone who reads this will have a positive impression of you.”

SQuid: “Using this forum's own criteria, there is NO justifiable rationale to keep you in the "Research Needed" category!... I have never read a more consistently genuine and trustworthy respondent on this forum... you clearly prevail as honest, intelligent, forthright, open, sincere, "genuine and trustworthy."

And RDR: “Shaman after shaman has said they WANT outsiders to use their plants - with respect, like mr ross seems to be doing”

I therefore also think it would be more appropriate to begin a wholly new thread on ‘ayahuasca tourism’ since, at the moment anyone who reads the material here might assume that this topic arose in concern to my own work whereas in truth it did not and in any case the comments above from forum members are generally positive towards me.

An entirely new thread on ‘ayahuasca tourism’ would allow this topic to be discussed without an apparent (and erroneous) focus on my work and the confusions around this that might result.

I’d be happy to create this new thread if you wish and to answer any questions there and make some comments of my own. I think it would be inappropriate for me to make such comments as part of this existing thread, however, because I would not want to appear, amongst other things, to be seeking approval for my work while criticisng that of others.

So... I have the following questions – or, rather, requests - to the moderators:

1. Can we please get rid of the earlier irrelevant and unsubstantiated “love guru” comments, one way or another

2. Can we also tidy up this thread to place the vodou discussion in a more appropriate place

3. Can we also then begin a wholly new thread on ‘ayahuasca tourism’ which does not focus so specifically on me so I feel that I may also be able to contribute to it

Thank you for your considerations.

[SQuid]

[MODERATOR'S NOTE:

Squid and RDR are the same person. They have the same ISP, not to mention identical writing styles. "They" need to explain the multiple sockpuppet IDs.]


I see that Ross Heaven's name is listed in the thread "FRAUDS in the UK" under the category of "FRAUDS!" The thread mistakenly leaves one wondering if Ross Heaven is to be considered a "UK Fraud."


[Disruption and further sidetracks removed. That thread actually does NOT state any such thing at all.
Heaven already answered those accusations earlier in this thread, but Squid/RDR and any other sockpuppets s/he creates seem determined to cause problems.]
 

[Moma_porcupine]

Well carefully sidesteping some of the distorted misleading and off topic comments which appear to have no purpose except to disrupt things.....

I guess the first thing I would like to ask is about the traditional uses of ayahuasca in the area where you take people .

I'm not clear if using ayahuasca in a traditional way is something that would only be used as a part of a sacred ceremony , which has a strict structure and protocols, or if it is seen as a medicine  which is good for some mental health issues ( but maybe dangerous in other situations) or if it is seen as something nice like mangos which are good for you any way you feel like using them.

1 . Is ayahuasca used by some groups in the area you visit as a part of a sacred ceremony that has a specific formalized structure? 

2. How do people who are strictly traditional feel about allowing people from outside of the culture to participate in these ceremonies?  Is there a range of opinion?

3. Are there some traditionally inclined indigenous people who use ayahuasca , who feel outsiders should not be allowed to participate in some forms of these ceremonies ?

4. Is there any disagreements in indigenous communities about what is respectful use of ayahuasca? If there is could you give us an outline of what the different points of view on this are?

5. If ayahuasca is traditionally used as medicine , what exactly is it used for?

6. In a traditional indigenous conmmunity is ayahuasca often used as a general mental health tonic , when there is no specific complaint? 

7. Are there specific mental / spiritual health problems that might be made worse by the use of ayahuasca

8. I also wanted to ask you if you would be comfortable to identify some of the not for profit Amazonian centers you mentioned supporting and working with?

When people are involved with others, it can help them have a balanced perspective and i think it good to know who people are affiliated with.
 
Thanks for being willing to explain this from your own point of view. l

[Ross]

Thanks for your questions. These are interesting and I have thoughts on them all. I'm sure the answers and the debate arising from them would be useful, too, in the greater understanding of ayahuasca and ayahuasca shamanism and how it differs, for example, from the Native American concerns and interests which this forum, in the main, appears to consider but which are not always transferrable to other cultures and peoples.

However, as you see from my earlier post, I do not believe this thread is the correct place for this topic to evolve for the reasons I stated.

So I'd like to see what the moderators have to say about my requests before going further, and the idea of opening a new topic thread where questions like yours could be posted and we could go more deeply into the subject.

Best wishes
Ross

[Moma_porcupine]

Hi Ross

Lots of stuff listed in research needed isn't there because people are trying to decide if it is a fraud. There is lots of products and services listed here because what needs research is the ethics and impact a particular product or service may have on indigenous peoples. As you yourself say. it is a complex subject.

Ross Reply #18 in response to the statement put out by the Union de Medicos Indigenas Yageceros de la Amazonia Colombiana

I had a look at the link you gave. Of course, I don’t work in Colombia but only in Peru, but I’m aware of the issues. They may differ in some respects in Peru but there are things in common.

I managed to find a really interesting article which presents a bit of the indigenous perspective , and this article is about ayahuasca tourism and how it is affecting the Shipibo community , which sound like the same people you are working with.

http://www.villageearth.org/pages/Projects/Peru/perublog/labels/indigenous%20tourism.html

Peru Project Blog

 Tourism Opens New Doors, Creates New Challenges, for Traditional Healers in Peru
By Proctor, Rachel

January 31, 2001 Cultural Survival Quarterly Issue 24.4

Mateo Arevalo, 43, was born into a family of traditional healers, or curanderos, in the Shipibo community of San Francisco de Yarinacocha in Peru. When he decided to follow in his father's footsteps and learn curandismo, he was taught to prepare a ceremonial drink from a woody vine scientists call Banisteriopsis caapi and curanderos call "ayahuasca," a Quechua word meaning "vine of the soul."

While Arevalo's forefathers put such knowledge to local use, generally treating their neighbors on a pro bono basis, Arevalo is proud to apply it to a wider audience.

But ayahuasca's new marketability has brought traditional healing to a dangerous crossroads. Tourist dollars could allow shamans to support themselves while continuing to treat their neighbors for little or nothing, but it could just as easily allow a privileged few to abandon their communities for a more affluent life in tourist towns or jungle lodges.

It is ironic that even a decade ago the main threat to traditional healing was lack of interest.

Arevalo agrees that the young were never interested in his work -- until now. These days, he receives many requests for training from young Shipibos who see the possibilities in a bottle of ayahuasca. Interest in healing, on the other hand, is still on the wane. "The young who ask me to teach them do not want to be curanderos," said Arevalo, who insists that his work with tourists does not interfere with his commitment to the health of the community. "They are only interested in giving ayahuasca to the tourists."

Even if practitioners of traditional medicine do move away from healing and into tourism, it would seem at first glance that ayahuasca tourism can, at the very least, help to preserve a tradition that might otherwise be forgotten. But because foreign consumers of ayahuasca often come with romanticized images of what a South American shaman should be, shamans have an incentive to alter their discourse to fit expectations.

"The Shipibos are very assimilated," says LeClerc. "The healers use the Bible, which isn't `really' part of their culture, but for them, it's as traditional as anything else. Then foreigners come, only looking for the natural, and the shamans change what they're saying to please them. So in some ways, tourism is bringing about a recovery of the past." At the same time, new foreign elements are becoming a part of the practice of some shamans.

One foreign element that no one appreciates, however, is outsides' desire to capitalize on interest in ayahuasca without providing any benefits to the community. The most egregious example is the 1986 U.S. patent on ayahuasca by an American pharmacology student.

In addition to concerns over compensation for their intellectual property, the patent's challengers warned that removing the plant from its traditional role could have devastating results, citing the existing gulf between the traditional use of the coca leaf in the Andes and the abuse of cocaine in the North. Just which adaptations and innovations are appropriate is a matter of considerable debate. The older generation of shamans in San Francisco, those who continue to heal their neighbors (or at least learned to do so, even if it no longer fits easily into their schedules), unanimously found ayahuasca-selling by those who do not heal inappropriate. Muñoz, who does not give ayahuasca recreationally, considers any ayahuasca tourism without a healing element to be a misuse. "If you go to the doctor, it's because you're sick," he said. "But sadly, in our country curanderos give ayahuasca to any tourist who asks for it. Ayahuasca should not be used as a recreational drug."

"Ayahuasca is incredibly hard on the body, especially the liver and kidneys, and this is why in traditional healing it is the shaman who takes ayahuasca, not the patient.

Straddling the past and the future is Rodolfo Valles, one of the rare young Shipibos learning curandismo in San Francisco. Throughout his life he has seen his father curing members of his community free of charge. Now, at 19, he has begun the fasting and ayahuasca-induced training sessions that will culminate in his first healing, which he hopes he will achieve within a year. He plans to earn the money he needs to buy that which the jungle does not provide by teaching languages in a nearby mestizo town, and thinks any shaman who charges for his services is a fraud. Yet when asked if he would do ceremonies for tourists if the opportunity arose, he demonstrates conflicted feelings. "It makes me ashamed when shamans charge the tourists for their ceremonies," Valles says. "But if people want to know about our reality and about Shipibo culture, I want to show them." He plans to get around his moral qualms by adopting the technique of many shamans: requesting a voluntary donation rather than charging a set fee. Furthermore, he insists that his primary concern will always be the sick in his community. "I want to be a shaman because I want to help people," he says. "I see so many needs in my community, so many sick people who can't afford medicine at the pharmacy."

If shamans are too busy entertaining tourists to help their communities, one can't say that a tradition has been preserved. It will have mutated into an empty commercial endeavor that does little to preserve Shipibo heritage or help the community as a whole.

( my bold highlighting)

I found quite a bit of information from various sources that echos this , but this is the only article I have found so far , that actually quotes some of the Shipibo people and expresses how they see this.

[Ross]

Thank you for your email here moma_porcupine - and for the private email you sent me earlier. I am pleased that you have found one article on ayahuasca which may or may not support your views but as far as my own further contribution here is concerned I can really only repeat the contents of the private reply I also sent you when you mailed me some hours ago - and so wonder why you are posting again here given my earlier response - which was this:


Thank you for your email. I have made the points I wish to make regarding this thread at the forum.

Being involved with this group is taking up a lot more time than I expected, partly because we seem to be going over the same ground a lot, vis: various people, including moderators, being generally positive about my work on all fronts so far discussed (vodou and ayahuasca), yet an unwillingness to simply move on, and so you'll forgive me if I don't want to enter into private discussions as well about the very same issues. It's nothing personal, it's just a question of time.

I see no reason at all to remain in 'research needed' since one moderator himself has already stated that I am NOT a fraud and you yourself have commneted on my genuineness and willing to discuss matters with you, etc. There is an available category for non-frauds and so I don't see what the problem is. In the face of acceptance so far I don't really have the inclination (or the time) to remain part of this thread forever in order, seemingly, to continue justifying my work to people I don't even know and who have in any case already accepted that I am not a fraud.

I am not "complaining about it", I am simply stating a fact and my reasonable perspective on things having been told publicly by a forum moderator that I am not a fraud.

To be equally blunt in turn, I have no interest really in whether my perspective on this improves your opinion of me or not. I don't feel that I have to "answer" to you or anyone else at this forum. I am happy to be (and have been) very open about my work, I have nothing to hide and my conscience is clear about what I do.

I am also very happy to educate the group about ayahuasca and its use based on my experience but that requires a more general thread and a general discussion in mind. If that doesn't happen I don't feel compelled to contribute further just because you would like me to and I'm disinclined to give further time to this as things stand.

Again, I'm not "complaining" but nor am I asking anyone's "permission" to do what I do; I'm simply explaining my work, so I feel no compulsion that I "must" answer all questions addressed to me.

I note your reference to "embarrassing" me but again I have nothing to hide so no reason to be "embarrassed" by anything you say. You can, of course, make any references or cast any shadows you wish without evidence for your opinions and views, but that does not imply any guilt on my part. I wouldn't bother to answer any further questions on 'Tepol' however since as far as I am concerned that matter has been dealt with and again a moderator has expressed the view that we should not pay atention to Tepol. That suits me fine but the fact that his message remains there means that anyone (as per yourself) can continue to go over this ground when the matter has already be dealt with.

Again, while that message (and I myself) remain in Research Needed it looks to me as if 'research' will always be "needed" even when a moderator has himself dismissed it.

That's really all I have to say. If you'd like to create a new thread I'll be happy to discuss ayahuasca with you and others but if not, well what else can I say? I believe I've made a reasonable offer but the rest is up to the group.

Best wishes
Ross


That remains my view and there's no need for secrecy moma_porcupine and no need, given my very clear reply, for you to be posting additional material here that I have told you I am currently unwilling to answer. I've asked you for what I believe is a very simple courtesy: simply start a new thread with a more general focus on the subject of 'ayahuasca tourism' and I'll happily answer your questions. In the absence of that, I really don't understand why you're posting again here when you already have my views on this matter.

Ross

[bls926]

Thank you for your email here moma_porcupine - and for the private email you sent me earlier. I am pleased that you have found one article on ayahuasca which may or may not support your views but as far as my own further contribution here is concerned I can really only repeat the contents of the private reply I also sent you when you mailed me some hours ago - and so wonder why you are posting again here given my earlier response - which was this:


Thank you for your email. I have made the points I wish to make regarding this thread at the forum.

Being involved with this group is taking up a lot more time than I expected, partly because we seem to be going over the same ground a lot, vis: various people, including moderators, being generally positive about my work on all fronts so far discussed (vodou and ayahuasca), yet an unwillingness to simply move on, and so you'll forgive me if I don't want to enter into private discussions as well about the very same issues. It's nothing personal, it's just a question of time.

I see no reason at all to remain in 'research needed' since one moderator himself has already stated that I am NOT a fraud and you yourself have commneted on my genuineness and willing to discuss matters with you, etc. There is an available category for non-frauds and so I don't see what the problem is. In the face of acceptance so far I don't really have the inclination (or the time) to remain part of this thread forever in order, seemingly, to continue justifying my work to people I don't even know and who have in any case already accepted that I am not a fraud.

I am not "complaining about it", I am simply stating a fact and my reasonable perspective on things having been told publicly by a forum moderator that I am not a fraud.

To be equally blunt in turn, I have no interest really in whether my perspective on this improves your opinion of me or not. I don't feel that I have to "answer" to you or anyone else at this forum. I am happy to be (and have been) very open about my work, I have nothing to hide and my conscience is clear about what I do.

I am also very happy to educate the group about ayahuasca and its use based on my experience but that requires a more general thread and a general discussion in mind. If that doesn't happen I don't feel compelled to contribute further just because you would like me to and I'm disinclined to give further time to this as things stand.

Again, I'm not "complaining" but nor am I asking anyone's "permission" to do what I do; I'm simply explaining my work, so I feel no compulsion that I "must" answer all questions addressed to me.

I note your reference to "embarrassing" me but again I have nothing to hide so no reason to be "embarrassed" by anything you say. You can, of course, make any references or cast any shadows you wish without evidence for your opinions and views, but that does not imply any guilt on my part. I wouldn't bother to answer any further questions on 'Tepol' however since as far as I am concerned that matter has been dealt with and again a moderator has expressed the view that we should not pay atention to Tepol. That suits me fine but the fact that his message remains there means that anyone (as per yourself) can continue to go over this ground when the matter has already be dealt with.

Again, while that message (and I myself) remain in Research Needed it looks to me as if 'research' will always be "needed" even when a moderator has himself dismissed it.

That's really all I have to say. If you'd like to create a new thread I'll be happy to discuss ayahuasca with you and others but if not, well what else can I say? I believe I've made a reasonable offer but the rest is up to the group.

Best wishes
Ross


That remains my view and there's no need for secrecy moma_porcupine and no need, given my very clear reply, for you to be posting additional material here that I have told you I am currently unwilling to answer. I've asked you for what I believe is a very simple courtesy: simply start a new thread with a more general focus on the subject of 'ayahuasca tourism' and I'll happily answer your questions. In the absence of that, I really don't understand why you're posting again here when you already have my views on this matter.

Ross

The last time a thread was moved from Research Needed to Non-Frauds before adequate research had been done, it was only a matter of months before it landed back in Research Needed. I don't think we need to be in a rush about this.

I know some have said that we should discount Tepol because he was basically a drive-by. I can't do that. There was a reason he posted what he did. He didn't wake up one morning and decide to hate on Ross Heaven. There's something there and maybe you need to explain what it is, as you're the only one who knows Tepol.

I don't think anyone has said Ross Heaven is not a fraud. Some have said you don't seem to be a fraud, you're polite and willing to answer questions, etc. However, that politeness and co-operative spirit seem to be slipping. This is taking up too much of your time? You aren't going to continue this discussion unless we follow your rules? You don't need to answer to us or anyone else? That attitude doesn't speak well for you.

More than Ross Heaven is being researched here. The use of ayahuasca outside of tradition needs to be researched. This medicine belongs to the people of South America. Is it really yours or any other Euro's to appropriate?

If this is being put to a vote . . . I think this thread is right where it belongs. I think every post on here should stay just the way it reads.

[Ross]

Thank you for your comments bls929.

To answer your points:

You say: "I don't think anyone has said Ross Heaven is not a fraud."

On March 24 educatedindian, a forum moderator, said this: "I haven't suggested you're a fraud, and honestly, I don't think you are at all. Most of the marks of a fraud, numerous lies, profit motive, ego, cultlike following, etc, aren't there in you or what you do. I have some concerns or disagreements about some aspects of what you do, but that isn't nearly the same thing. I've seen so many of these less than ethical operators that it frankly amazes me to find someone who isn't operating like that." [The underlines are mine; the bold is educatedindian's]

On March 25 Squid (or RDR or whoever) said: "I have never read a more consistently genuine and trustworthy respondent on this forum" - and there is a place for "genuine and trustworthy" people at this group. It is the non-frauds section, which you define in your own terms as a place for "People who are genuine and trustworthy".

You say: "[People have said] you're polite and willing to answer questions, etc."

Yes. Thank you. on March 24 moma_porcupine said: "I've been reading through this and like educatedindian I have been impressed to see you have enough integrity to address peoples concerns without trying to side step divert or pretend."

I feel, however, that I have answered enough personal questions and that this thread has now moved on. As you say: "More than Ross Heaven is being researched here. The use of ayahuasca outside of tradition needs to be researched."

Agreed. So I am suggesting that we start a new thread to do that. I really don't understand why that seems so controversial to you.

If you read back to my original post on this I proposed only that since this thread has moved on we tidy it up by getting rid of extraneous material. There are two unrelated topics here:

1. Vodou, which has nothing to do with ayahuasca. There is however an existing thread on this and I cannot see why the posts about vodou in this 'ayahuasca thread' cannot therefore go there. Is there a reason that you can see, given your desire to discuss the use of ayahuasca, which is not a component of vodou at all?

2. The other unrelated topic comes from Tepol, of which educatedindian said on March 20: "Yes, we can all see Tepol/whatever his actual name was has not helped clear up the subjects at all and we should pay him no mind" (my italics) - and yet here we are doing so once again. moma_porcupine's email to me referred to it and you are doing so again now. Inevitably, therefore, it seems to me that it will always be brought back up while it remains an irrelevant part of this thread.

As far as I (and you, it seems) are concerned we have moved on in this thread to consider other subjects, so why do you also feel a need to go over old ground and refer to topics that have been dealt with? The nature of this thread is now general (as you say: "The use of ayahuasca outside of tradition needs to be researched.") Correct! So why retain or refer to earlier posts which have no bearing on it? The answer seems simple (and inevitable) to me: because they are there! My suggestion was therefore to move that post so we can also move on. Again, I wonder what your reluctance is.

You say: "However, that politeness and co-operative spirit seem to be slipping."

I'm sorry you find me impolite. I imagine 'politeness' is a subjective thing, however, so it is rather pointless for me to make any comment here about your perceptions.

On the subject of my "co-operative spirit", however, first let's be clear that there is no compulsion for me to be here or to "co-operate" with you or anyone else. I have done so (and am willing to continue) through my personal choice, through interest in the subject of ayahuasca, and because there seems to be a lot of misinformation/lack of information or ignorance about the subject which I'm happy to help clear up (for example, educatedindian has twice referred to ayahuasca as a "drug". That may be his view but the curanderos of the Amazon actually regard it as a sacrament and - in their own Native words - as a "jungle doctor" so I am sure they would be quite offended to hear it called a drug, especially as many of them seem to have a clear anti-drugs stance themselves). This forum is not an inquisition however (I hope) and surely nobody should feel as if they must "co-operate" with you by giving you the information you're asking for or that it will therefore somehow "prove" they are a fraud if they do not?

You say: "This is taking up too much of your time?"

I said, to be exact: "Being involved with this group is taking up a lot more time than I expected, partly because we seem to be going over the same ground a lot" - as we are doing again here.

I had hoped, as I said earlier, that we might explore some of the interesting questions relating to ayahuasca and its use but, in fact, the thread keeps reverting to 'an examination of Ross' character' - as you are doing here. That seems to me inevitable in a thread which begins with a post about me and then confuses itself by trying to take the generalist ground. To me, it is simply a matter of logic and the need for clear categories that we tidy things up and I don't see the need for any controversy around it. I am sure that educatedindian, as an academic , must also see the necessity for clarity, for defining ones terms and for addressing the issues involved in a discussion in a logical and non-confusing way.

You say: "You aren't going to continue this discussion unless we follow your rules?"

I said, to be exact: "while... I myself remain in Research Needed it looks to me as if 'research' will always be "needed" even when a moderator has himself dismissed it" ("I haven't suggested you're a fraud, and honestly, I don't think you are at all[/u) - and here we are again, with your message bringing it back to the personal rather than the general.

I am not giving you "rules" to be followed. I have asked for clarity in the thread and for the removal of some items to their proper location (vodou) and others altogether since they have no bearing on this current subject and a moderator has already suggested to the group that "we should pay them no mind". I am also asking for the creation of a more general thread (ex- the material about me which is specific and personal and can be put elsewhere) so we can discuss the general subject you say you want to.

I did not phrase those as "rules" but in my post which suggests all of this as "questions or rather requests". Those polite (and to me, sensible) requests have gone unheeded. My view therefore is that it makes it difficult for me to say much more about ayahuasca in general because it is always going to be related to my work in particular while it remains in this thread.

You say: "You don't need to answer to us or anyone else?"

Correct. Why do you think I should? In connection with my ayahuasca work a moderator has already said, once again, "I don't think you are [a fraud] at all." But even if in your view I was, I still don't have to answer to you about your opinion of me, just as wouldn't expect you to have to "answer" to me for holding that opinion, even if it was wholly wrong.

I have joined this group and posted here to offer clarification on some points and now I have gone further and offered to provide you with information based on experience about a subject that seems to interest you (ayahuasca). I have done so as a courtesy and to extend this conversation into something worthwhile but please do not for a moment be confused by thinking I feel compelled to, or must, "answer" to anyone - or even answer the questions put to me. It would be a donation of my time if I did since these questions about ayahuasca are currently specifically directed to me. I am willing to provide you with the information you ask for but, as with any request to another for a donation of anything, it is one which should be politely made not demanded. I would suggest also that a proper attitude would be to hear the answers given fairly and objectively, not assume that this information is provided because you need or a right to be "answered to".

You say: "That attitude doesn't speak well for you."

I wonder why? Do I have no rights to a life of my own?! As I said before, taking part in this forum is time-consuming but, more than that, going over the same points rather than moving on (as I have had to do here yet again) is tedious and not a good investment of my time (or anyone else's I should imagine), especially when others on this forum have already vindicated my work.

You say: "The use of ayahuasca outside of tradition needs to be researched."

Yes, finally (after your several personal and specific points about me, not ayahuasca) we are back to the supposed subject of this thread once again. Given that we have not yet even started to look at this subject, however, I'd suggest that this validates my point about the confusing mix of personal and general that it involves and once more then I can only suggest that you begin a new, clearer, thread (minus the personal material) where this can be properly discussed if that is truly what you want. But I'm afraid that as things stand I can't help you further in this one.

It seems a pity to me not to have someone with personal experience about the subject in hand to take part in this discussion but if that is what you prefer I can only wish you well in your research.

Best wishes
Ross

[Ross]

Sorry for all the underlines - I'm still trying to get used to these buttons!

[wolfhawaii]

Thank you Ross for your patience and general deportment in this thread....I hope that your suggestions for cleaning up the thread are respected. Some have not yet looked into the mirrors of their own soul yet. I agree that more research would be useful regarding ayahuasca and your participation in the discussion would be helpful as a consultant and not as a target.

[bls926]

The last time a thread was moved from Research Needed to Non-Frauds before adequate research had been done, it was only a matter of months before it landed back in Research Needed. I don't think we need to be in a rush about this.

The individual who was the subject of that thread came and made a statement or two also. He had many supporters; I was one of them. The thread was moved to Non-Frauds. All that doesn't change the fact that he and his organization are back in Research Needed.

If this is being put to a vote . . . I think this thread is right where it belongs. I think every post on here should stay just the way it reads.

I stand by what I said last night. I think this entire thread needs to stay right where it is.


If y'all want another thread to discuss the appropriation and use of ayahuasca . . . start another thread.

[Ross]

Thank you again bls.

You say: "If y'all want another thread to discuss the appropriation and use of ayahuasca . . . start another thread."

If that comment was addressed to me, let me say that I would not presume to start a new thread without a moderator's permission - especially as it is other people at this forum who would like to discuss ayahuasca. I find the subject most interesting, but it is not I who lack information or have questions,

However, if a new thread begins (which I believe would be sensible) I think it should also be more objective and less inherently biased from the outset than the tone of the one you suggest. I have offered to discuss the general subject of ayahuasca and its use with you. Creating a thread about the "appropriation" of ayahuasca gives a rather particular leaning to the discussion before it even begins, however, and it's one which, again, I wouldn't care to take part in.

So shall we try to be a little more objective here and open to learning rather than condemnation from the outset?

Best wishes
Ross

[Ross]

Thank you wolf.

I'll be interested to join in such a discussion if one ever begins.

Best wishes
Ross