Author Topic: Blackwater Muskogee tribe  (Read 161845 times)

Offline tachia

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #105 on: March 10, 2009, 05:58:03 am »
wow .. .. lol .. i am still reading the forum Elke gave the link to .. have to keep stopping for a bit .. it is a good laugh at the very least .. yet also very sad to see such misappropriation and commodification of our Ways by these people .. and then the pot calling the kettle black on top of it all .. fake ndn's yelling at other fake ndn's .. just wow .. ..

still reading, but thanks Elke for the link! .. it certainly does give much more insight into these people! ..

Offline Elke

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #106 on: March 10, 2009, 09:05:44 am »
As I said-- you don't have to like us dancing at powwows-- but the main difference between Larrys group and the white dancers is--- They know they are white and will never tell anybody anything else.

And believe me-- The telephone call I had with Larry- more than 2 hours of bla and the same shit turning in circles....
- I wasted my time!

Ryan is indeed a Mandan and maybe the only NA there as far as I still remember the discussion.

@ Ingeborg-- sorry that was my Information, that ended arround the end of that discussion at powwow-kalender- I read some pages here, but not all- I don't have the time at the moment.----- now I saw- it was not Tonya-- it was Liz Roemer (as I read here shortly before, on page 3 or so)

Greetings from ELke
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:44:16 am by Elke »

Offline Elke

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #107 on: March 10, 2009, 09:36:35 am »
Posted by educatedindian:
I'm also still waiting to hear something as bizarre as "chief in training of honorary members" over in Germany explained.



------------------

when I had a loooong telephone call with Larry,

he explained this to me:

He said, in the eastern communities there were war and peace chiefs. What he is here for his  Band, he has the position as a warchief.

-----

as far as I remember--- and (I just read 1 or 2 pages now,where I found that) just because nobody can tell anybody anything anymore.... and nobody seems to be involved at anytime-- as I understood the posts of Liz at the 2 sides of the thread I read--- but my English is not so perfect- sorry for that.

Greetings from Elke

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #108 on: March 10, 2009, 04:21:22 pm »
http://www.forumromanum.de/member/forum/entry_ubb.user_288051.2.1105962872.1105962872.3.new_age_fraud_web_sites-indianer_nordamerikas.html


The thread was started by William Jervis to complain about NAFPS. There was a new reply by another person yesterday which I translated:

Re: new age fraud web sites, March 09, 2009, 16:14
by: guest frank

Quote
So I happen to look per chance at this nafps racist hate site today.... I cannot find other words for that... I almost dropped dead, they're dragging our „blackwaterbandoflowermuskokee e.v.“ through the shit there – with excerpts badly translated into English and much copy & past [sic].

I'm a laid back man, but that's too much... and many names in this forum [i.e. forum romanum] are to be found there, too. I am Larry's „brother“ to express this in your fullbloodgermanisbetter mentality, and persons offending him are offending the entire organisation and also me as a webmaster of the site www.muskokee.de

Have a look at the other powwows in Germany, ours is as good or as bad – but I think we're a little bit better;-))

And just ask yourselves whether you shouldn't start at yourselves!? With NAAoG, the forum once got closed down due to such escapades... you're meanwhile pulling yourselves together a little here...

Top 10 Things To Say To A Non-Indian Upon First Meeting
10. How much white are you?
9. I‘m part white myself, you know.
8. I learned all your people‘s ways in the Boy Scouts (Order of the Bullet).
7. My great-great-grandmother was a full-blooded European princess.
6. Funny, you don‘t look white.
5. Where‘s your powdered wig and knickers?
4. Do you live in a covered wagon?
3. What‘s the meaning behind the square dance?
2. Oh wow, I really love your hair! Can I touch it?
1. What‘s your feeling about river-boat casinos? Do they really help your people or are they just a short-term fix?
Buffalo-strong greetings
frank

Calling NAFPS a 'racist hate site' speaks volumes, as does Frank's assumption that NAFPS must be a Euro project. The inability to imagine such a project as NAFPS can be and is in fact founded and run by ndns, I'm afraid, points to the very same.

frederica

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #109 on: March 10, 2009, 07:21:29 pm »
Quote from: bls926
quote


I contacted the Muscogee (Creek) Nation about the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee. I asked if they were afiliated with the Blackwater Band and/or if they recognized them as a legitimate tribe or band. I also asked if members of the Blackwater Band have authority to represent the Mvskoke, to people in Europe? I received a reply from Joyce Bear, their Historic Preservation Officer, yesterday evening. Her reply was also sent to Robert Thrower, Tribal Historic Preservation Officer for the Poarch Band of Creek Indians, along with a copy of my original e-mail. I received a reply from Thrower this morning. Below are both e-mails:

Muscogee (Creek) Nation
Quote
Re: Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee???
From: Joyce Bear (preservation@muscogeenation-nsn.gov)
Sent: Fri 7/18/08 5:17 PM
To:  Robert Thrower (rgthrower@hotmail.com); Bonnie Singleton (bls926@msn.com)

There are ONLY TWO  FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED "CREEK' TRIBES in the United States......   The Poarch Band of Creek Indians located in Atmore, Alabama.   and the Muscogee (Creek) Nation, located in Okmulgee, Oklahoma......  The Muscogee (Creek) Nation DOES NOT recognize the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee or any other State recognized group as a legitimate American Indian tribe.  No one represents the Muscogee (Creek) Nation unless they are an elected official or appointed by our Principal Chief A. D. Ellis....The people you have mention, I have never heard of them....  and NO... they do not represent the Muscogee (Creek) Nation in any way or form...... I cannot speak for the Poarch Band....   I suggest that you contact Robert Thrower and the Poarch Band.....
Joyce A. Bear, Historic Preservation Officer, Muscogee (Creek) Nation.

Poarch Band of Creek Indians
Quote
RE: Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee???
From: Robert Thrower (rgthrower@hotmail.com)
Sent: Sat 7/19/08 9:48 AM
To:  bls926@msn.com
Cc:  preservation@muscogeenation-nsn.gov; rgthrower@hotmail.com


Bonnie

I concur with Joyce Bear, as a sovereign American Indian Nation, the Poarch Creeks do not recognize the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee or any other State (or self) recognized group as a legitimate American Indian tribe.  No one can represent our Tribe unless duly appointed by our Tribal Council.

Robert G. Thrower
Tribal Historic Preservation Officer
Poarch Band of Creek Indians


Cold hard facts; NOT gossip
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   This is the statements BLS received from the Poach Creek Muscogee and the Muscogee Creek Nation last year.  These people are not recognized.  You cannot be a Warchief, ambassador, or anything else unless they have been appointed by the Tribal Council of that Nation.  A coyote no matter how you dress it up is still a coyote.  Some things are just facts. 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 07:23:04 pm by frederica »

Offline Elke

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #110 on: March 10, 2009, 07:49:06 pm »
I don't know exactly, but as I remember, a friend told my (he had gone to this powwow some years, Larry had shown him something like a enrollment card or something like that... but it was more than a half year ago--- I maybe don't remember right... I should ask him.

Greetings from ELke

Online educatedindian

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #111 on: March 11, 2009, 01:27:42 am »
http://www.forumromanum.de/member/forum/entry_ubb.user_288051.2.1105962872.1105962872.3.new_age_fraud_web_sites-indianer_nordamerikas.html


The thread was started by William Jervis to complain about NAFPS. There was a new reply by another person yesterday which I translated:

Re: new age fraud web sites, March 09, 2009, 16:14
by: guest frank

Quote
So I happen to look per chance at this nafps racist hate site today.... I cannot find other words for that... I almost dropped dead, they're dragging our „blackwaterbandoflowermuskokee e.v.“ through the shit there....
Buffalo-strong greetings
frank

Calling NAFPS a 'racist hate site' speaks volumes, as does Frank's assumption that NAFPS must be a Euro project. The inability to imagine such a project as NAFPS can be and is in fact founded and run by ndns, I'm afraid, points to the very same.

Oh yes, I got a hysterical message from him, saying "Where are the Indians?!" followed by a mini rant in German.

Hopefully he's reading this, so he can know...he was talking about a mostly NDN and mostly mixedblood forum and doesn't have a clue about NDNs today, just his own racist fantasies that he is demanding we live up to.

Offline bls926

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #112 on: April 04, 2009, 08:52:35 pm »
I don't know exactly, but as I remember, a friend told my (he had gone to this powwow some years, Larry had shown him something like a enrollment card or something like that... but it was more than a half year ago--- I maybe don't remember right... I should ask him.

Greetings from ELke

Not sure what Larry Nichols showed your friend. One thing I am sure of, it was not a valid enrollment card. Nichols is not enrolled or even recognized by either of the only two legitimate Mvskoke Nations. Why do we need to keep repeating this fact?

Offline Elke

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #113 on: April 06, 2009, 08:48:29 pm »
But what showed L. Nichols to the people??????

Here newly to read in a German Forum:

http://www.forumromanum.de/member/forum/entry_ubb.user_288051.2.1107008110.1107008110.2.pow_wow_mengen-indianer_nordamerikas.html

From Guenther Fischer:

Hi Benny,
auch ich kenne Larry seit einigen Jahren und seine PowWows, seinen Kampf gegen Wannabees und gegen respektlose "Hobbyisten". Leider hat dieser Kampf Larry nicht davon abgehalten, Personen genau aus diesem Personenkreis immer wieder auf seinem PowWow als echte Natives oder ernsthafte Freunde der indianischen Kultur zu präsentieren. Dieses ist bedauerlich, denn es hat ihm selbst und seiner Reputation sehr geschadet.
Ich kenne ebenfalls Larry´s Ausweis, Member-Card und seinen Stammbaum - letzteren sogar im Detail.
Um hier Missverständnissen vorzubeugen: Larry ist ohne Zweifel ein Native.
Allerdings solltest Du hier nicht den Eindruck erwecken, daß unter Larry´s Vorfahren nur Natives sind. Entweder hast Du seinen Stammbaum nicht gesehen oder Du hast Dich mit den genealogischen und historischen Details nicht befasst. Unter Larry´s Vorfahren sind viele Europäer, was mit der Geschichte der Muscoogee zusammen hängt und nichts Ungewöhnliches ist. Dieser Stamm hatte eine hochstehende Kultur und mischte sich sehr bereitwillig mit den ersten europäischen Siedlern, mit denen sie anfangs ein sehr friedvolles Miteinander pflegten. Daraus resultiert auch das eher europäische Aussehen von Larry, was ihm ja gelegentlich auch schon vorgeworfen wurde.
Larry ist nach der Rechtsauffassung der Muscoogee Nation in Oklahoma kein Muscoogee und auch in Álabama (Poarch) kann ihm nur bestätigt werden, daß seine Vorfahren in der Stammesrolle eingetragen sind. Er selbst kann auch nach meinem Verständnis der Muscoogee-Verfassung nicht in die Stammesrolle eingetragen werden. Allerdings hat Larry meines Wissens auch nie behauptet, Mitglied der Muscoogee Nation zu sein. Seine Verwandten leben in Florida und bilden dort eine relativ kleine Gruppe (Blackwater Band), die die Muscoogee Tradition weiter pflegt. In dieser Tradition sieht sich Larry und diese wird auf seinem PowWow vermittelt.
Ich wünsche Euch in Mengen eine friedvolles und harmonisches Treffen.
Guenther
-------------------------------------------------------

b. bussard:
Du kannst es einfach nicht lassen!?
Phantasie hast du offenbar genug, dann stell dir vor Du bist in einem fremden Land - Du stellst fest, viele, ja sogar sehr viele Einheimische erfreuen sich eines deutschen Folklore-Tanz. Sie nähen sich die Trachten, gründen Vereine u. lesen einpaar Bücher über deutsche Kultur.- Hier könnte ich mich wohlfühlen, denkst Du und bleibst. Du gibst Ratschläge u. Tips und organisierst selbst deutsche Kultur-Feste. Toll - bis eines Tages jemand schlecht auf dich zu sprechen ist u. behauptet Du bist gar kein Deutscher, sondern ein Betrüger ! Damit nicht genug, dieser Jemand versucht Informationen über Dich einzuholen, nur um Dich als Betrüger hinstellen zu können!!!
Ich glaube , gerade jemand wie Du, würde explodieren.

Ich kenne Larry nun schon einige Jahre u. durch Ihn einige sehr einflußreiche Nativ, sie alle kennen diese blöden Versuche, Ihn als Betrüger darzustellen. Hier findet man nur verständnisloses Kopfschütteln. Ich habe seinen Ausweis u. auch seine Member-Card gesehen, so wie 2 dicke Bücher in denen all die Stammbäume verschiedener Personen (Nativ) aus mehreren Stämmen verzeichnet u. aufgeführt sind. Mit dabei, die Familie u. der Clan von Larry Nichols von Anbeginn der Aufzeichnungen.In diesen Chroniken sind ausschließlich Nativ’s aufgeführt.
Desweiteren solltest du bedenken, daß es in den Staaten Gruppen gibt, die professionellen Rassenhass, speziell gegen Nativ, gibt. Für die sind Leute wie Du es bist, ein gefundenes Fressen ! Du solltest in Ruhe darüber nachdenken, bevor du wieder jemanden ans Bein pissen willst. (sorry,für meine Ausdrucksweise). Ich für meinen Teil möchte dieses leidige Thema beenden.
Ich wollte in diesem Forum nur einpaar nette Leute zu unserem Pow Wow einladen.
Benny.

Offline Elke

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #114 on: April 06, 2009, 09:41:38 pm »
From Guenther Fischer:

Hi Benny,
I also know Larry for some years and his powwows, his struggle against wanabees and respectless "hobbyists". Unfortunatelly this struggle didn't keep him off presenting people of this group as real NAs or real NA-interested  people on his powwows. This is sad, because it damaged him and his reputation.
I know Larry's Passport, Member card and his family tree- and the last one in detail.
to prefent of missunderstanding, without any question Larry is NA
But you shouldn't show the impression here that Larry has just NA ancestors. Either you haven't seen his family tree or you haven't dealed with the genealogic or historic details. Many Europeans are under his ancestors, what is related with Muskogee history and what is not unusual. This tribe had a high standing Culture and liked to mix with the first European settlers, with whom the lived together in a friendly way first. This is where Larrys European look came from and what was accused to him sometimes.

Larry is at the view of the rights of the Musk. Nation in Oklahoma NO muskogee and also in Alabama he just can get confirmed that his ancestors are enrrolled. He himself can, in my understanding (guenther)of the Muskogee bill of rights, not beeing enrolled. But Larry never said (in my knowledge)(Guenther) that he is member of the muskogee Nation. His relatives live in Florida and are a small group there (Blackwater band), who are preserving the Muskogee Tradition. In this tradition Larry sees himself and he is telling that to the people at his powwow. I wish you a peacefull and harmonic meeting in Mengen.
 Guenther
 
 
 
-------------------------------------------------------

b. bussard:
You can't stop it (me ha!)!?
you have enough phantasy, than think of you are in a foreign country -You notice, many, many many native inhabitants like typical German Folklore- dance. They make themselfes outfits, founding clubs and read some books about German culture.- Here I will like to be, you think and stay. you give advices and Tips and organizes German Culture events--- until one day, somebody didn't like you and say you are no German, but a fraud! But not enough, this guy is searching for informations about you to show you as a fraud!!!!
I believe, esspecially somebody like you (me- he means) will explode.

I know Larry since some years and through him some NAs how have some influence, they all know these stubid tryings to show him as a fraud.
Here you just find unsympathetic headshakes. I have seen his passport and member card and 2 thick books within family trees of severall people (Natives) of severall tribes that are shown there. Within that Larrys family and clan from the start of recording- and at that chronic, just NAs are shown.

beside that you should think about that there are groups in US, who show professionall racial hate against NAs. For them are people like you (me,lol) are something they are really looking for! you should think in silence before you will piss on somebodys legs again. I for my part will stop this tiresome theme.
I just wanted to invite some nice people to our powwow.
Benny.


Offline bls926

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #115 on: April 07, 2009, 12:32:42 am »
Repeating what I said earlier.

Not sure what Larry Nichols showed your friend. One thing I am sure of, it was not a valid enrollment card. Nichols is not enrolled or even recognized by either of the only two legitimate Mvskoke Nations. Why do we need to keep repeating this fact?


Let me add . . . The Blackwater Muskogee are not an American Indian Nation, not a Tribe. They are a group of wannabes, pretendians. Some may have Mvskoke ancestors, which would make them descendants. They are not Indians.

I don't read German and your translation was a little hard to follow. So, I have no comment on what was posted on that forum.

Offline Elke

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #116 on: April 07, 2009, 12:35:54 pm »
sorry for, it was also not very easy German , I tried to translate as good as I can.

The point is, these guys saw a card/paper whatever from Larry and beliefe this makes it somehow official. Larry showed them a family tree in a book-- or better some family trees of severall NAs of several tribes--- ans I just wondered, if this is normal Litrature in everyday NAs home bookdesk.

greetings from Elke

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #117 on: April 07, 2009, 02:14:35 pm »

The following is a better translation of the above mentioned entry in a German forum dd April 5, 2009, 21:32.


http://www.forumromanum.de/member/forum/entry_ubb.user_288051.2.1107008110.1107008110.2.pow_wow_mengen-indianer_nordamerikas.html


author: Guenther Fischer

Hi Benny,
I've also known Larry [Nichols] and his powwows for years, his fight against Wanabis and against disrespectful 'hobbyists'. Unfortunately, this fight did no keep Larry from accepting persons from exactly these circles to his powwows as genuine natives or serious friends of Indian culture. This is deplorable as it did damage him and his reputation.

 I have also seen Larry's passport, his member card and his genealogy – the latter in detail.

In order to save us misunderstandings: Larry doubtless is a Native.

Still you shouldn't not provoke the impression here there were only Natives among Larry's ancestors. You either did not read his genealogy, or you did not pay attention to the genealogical and historical details. There are many Europeans among Larry's ancestors which is due to Muscoogee [sic] history and is nothing exceptional. This tribe had an advanced culture and very eagerly mixed with European settlers with whom they were living peacefully at first. Larry's European looks - which occasionally were held against him – result from this.

According to the legal standards of the Muscoogee [sic] Nation in Oklahoma, Larry is no Muscoogee and also Alabama (Poarch) can only confirm that his ancestors were on the tribal roll. Larry himself cannot be enrolled also in my understanding of the Muscoogee constitution. On the other hand, as far as I know, Larry never claimed to be a member of the Muscoogee Nation. His relatives live in Florida and are a relatively small group (Blackwater Band) who still observe Muscoogee traditions. Larry sees himself in this tradition and this [tradition] is taught at the powwows.
Wishing you a peaceful meeting full of harmony in Mengen,
Guenther

Offline bls926

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #118 on: May 10, 2009, 05:11:50 am »
Bumping for loudcrow's benefit.


Offline Don Naconna

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Re: Blackwater Muskogee tribe
« Reply #119 on: August 08, 2009, 01:30:30 pm »
I have written to the Assembly of First Nations inquiring about Linda Lou Flewin claiming to be the Canadian Consul for Aboriginal people abroad. I will post their reply as soon as I receive it. I am also concerned that Linda Lou Flewin and her alter ego "Crazy Eagle" have made threats in an other forum. As others have noted Crazy Eagle refers to Ms. Flewin in the 3rd person and then signs posts with her name. Ms. Flewin is a well educated IT professional, yet in other forums she tries to sound like the most stereotypical illiterate, poor grammar,misspelled words and sounds like someone who is a white person impersonating an Indian. I also doubt that Ms.Lightfoot is what she claims to be. Has she ever been challenged to produce any credentials or to prove her position at the UN.