Blackwater Muskogee tribe

[bls926]

I have no affiliation with the Tribe or group in question, so I cannot personally be attacked in this regard, but I do protest the rights of a Federal Recognized Creek Indian and all Federally Recognized (PODIA'S) ENROLLED AND NON ENROLLED.

Was reading back over this thread and came across this gem. First, what "Federal Recognized Creek Indian" has even been discussed on this thread? None, nada, zip, zero. Second, there's no such thing as a "Federally Recognized (PODIA'S) ENROLLED AND NON ENROLLED". The federal government doesn't recognize a person of distant Indian ancestry as Native American. The federal government doesn't recognize anyone as Native American unless they're enrolled with a federally recognized tribe or one with state recognition. If your Nation doesn't recognize you, the federal government sure isn't going to.

[zoi lightfoot]

Moma Pocupine has clearly stated,she has contacted the Poarch Creek(thank you)sigh now people  I suggest we all cool the personal name calling and yes we are ALL guilty,until such time as Poarch Creek respond and tell us all, one way or another ,thier exact postion in relation to Blackwater.Its not helpful,healthy or a rightious thing for us all to do,when lets face facts we are all wanting truthful clarification.
Al can I ask you to perhaps consider seperating the 'validity of Blackwater'issue,from Larry and Liz into two topics as it is clear they (understandibly perhaps)and Napfs members have diffuculty keeping the two matters apart no matter how many times its repeated this thread is about Blackwater.

[bls926]

Moma Pocupine has clearly stated,she has contacted the Poarch Creek(thank you)sigh now people  I suggest we all cool the personal name calling and yes we are ALL guilty,until such time as Poarch Creek respond and tell us all, one way or another ,thier exact postion in relation to Blackwater.Its not helpful,healthy or a rightious thing for us all to do,when lets face facts we are all wanting truthful clarification.
Al can I ask you to perhaps consider seperating the 'validity of Blackwater'issue,from Larry and Liz into two topics as it is clear they (understandibly perhaps)and Napfs members have diffuculty keeping the two matters apart no matter how many times its repeated this thread is about Blackwater.

And why would we want to separate this discussion into two threads? It's all part of the same issue. Larry Nichols and Liz Roemer threw themselves into this mix.

[zoi lightfoot]

Maybe they did,but then as one of them was specificaly mentioned in the very first sentence of this thread,why wouldn't he/they?.And what is so difficult about waiting for Poarch Creek to respond to Moma porcupine's request?

[frederica]

 I agree, I think it would be a good thing to just wait. It's become too defensive. So let's wait  to see if there is a response.

[educatedindian]

1. Selling honorary memberships to Germans?
Where is the proof?

2. And which members of my clan/family have repeatedly libeled NAFPS
and/or its members?

3. Lekay and Yeagley? I don't know them. What do they have to do
with any of this?

Liz Roemer

1. There were some links we found to discussions on German messageboards. It seems that Nichols had faced some accusations. I was careful only to say that there were such accusations until I knew more, and hoped that the Blackwaters would tell us more rather than just shut down and refuse to speak. Now Ingeborg tells me the source was not credible. I'm glad to have that resolved.

2. Well, besides Granny? Besides Liz herself, repeating the same libel without proof? Besides Crazyeagle and Justme? Nichols seems to be the only Blackwater not to have repeatedly libelled. All he did was explode with anger once and leave.

3. Lekay and Yeagley are where some of the Blackwater got the libel that they repeated uncritically, without proof, numerous times. Whether Liz or any others in Blackwater realized it or not, they were being played by the Yeagledites and exploiters.

I think the waiting to hear back from Poarch Creek is good advice, but would like to point out one important thing:

Nowhere has Blackwater been "attacked". Asking questions is not attacking, esp since we repeatedly said our questions in calm careful measured tones (outside of at the end, when I became a little frustrated). That contrasts quite a bit with the way some of the Blackwaters have treated NAFPS members.

It's ironic that they chose to ignore the compliments NAFPS members paid them at times. Their work against exploiters in Europe deserves praise, and being descendants instead of an actual tribe (based on what we see so far) should not diminish that. Unfortunately their behavior makes it look like they have something to hide, and will probably be used by exploiters in Germany to discredit them.

BUt what we've always been talking about are comparately minor questions, certainly nothing to compare to the very serious abusers and exploiters like Holzwarth or the Deer Tribe. It's only the defensiveness and evasion which has drawn out what could have been a short simple discussion into such a long one.

[Ingeborg]

1. There were some links we found to discussions on German messageboards. It seems that Nichols had faced some accusations. I was careful only to say that there were such accusations until I knew more, and hoped that the Blackwaters would tell us more rather than just shut down and refuse to speak. Now Ingeborg tells me the source was not credible. I'm glad to have that resolved.

Just a small correction here: as far as I am aware, Larry Nichols never *faced* these accusations. Some rumours were voiced in a forum which Larry Nichols does not frequent, so I wouldn't say they were said to his face; 'behind his back' should be a more correct way to phrase it. From all I've seen, it was just someone going on about him at a place they thought safe enough, and they did not expect to be called upon their BS by him.

[zoi lightfoot]

For the sake of clarity,when we use the term "Blackwaters",we are referring to the two peoples in Europe and the majority in the US,yes?.

[Moma_porcupine]

I still haven't heard back from the Poarch Creek Band.  If they get a lot of spam it's possible they never even noticed I emailed them.  I used the email in the contact link on this webpage,

http://www.poarchcreekindians.org/xhtml/contact.htm

I suppose if someone involved with the Blackwater group knows someone in the tribal council who would be willing confirm that the Poarch Creek band recognizes the Black Water Muskokee band, as a Nation,  they could ask them to email Al from the Tribal Council, to confirm this. Otherwise I will just wait and let people know if and when I hear back from them.

I don't mean to leave people siting on the edges of their seats, but I'm not sure what else I can do.

It is a good thing that this group speaks out against exploitation of ceremonies, and I hope people will understand that these are completely seperate issues. What this group has said against this abuse is still valid, and I hear these people have done good things in this regard, even if the Blackwater Muskokee turn out to be more of a heritge group, and not really a tribe.

[zoi lightfoot]

Thank you for your patience moma.

[loudcrow]

To clarify matters, both Larry and I resigned from the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee
over 2 years ago due to the lack of proper leadership and sheer stupidity. Neither of us is
responsible for the actions of this group and we will not answer any questions about them.
Period.

I am posting because Francis and T/T/T are now parading around the UK Hobbyist scene with
the flag of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee and claiming they are part of this band.
I have emailed the Blackwater Band about this and have been informed they are not a band but
are stomp dancers. So I guess that explains the Billingtons doing a stomp dance at the Bison Farm
PowWow last week.

In closing, please label the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee appropriately. Larry and I
are deeply embarassed by their decision to condone this type of activity by the Billingtons with the
"stamp of approval" of the Blackwater Band. Neither Larry or I had anything to do with this decision
and are as shocked and dismayed as the rest of the Natives reading this post and allowing Twinkies
and WannaBes to disgrace all Natives in such a manner is positively vile. The Blackwater Band should
be ashamed of themselves. I know I am certainly ashamed of them.

Crow with a loud voice

[bls926]

I suggest before ANY of you go ant further you all re aquaint yourselves with 'THE PURPOSE OF THIS GROUP' in Welcome and news.By that I mean all of its points.Now I suggest those peoples who want to find out if Blackwater is bogus,speak directly with Poarch Band and accertain from them if or who is bogus or not.Or is that too difficult a thing for folks to do?.I also suggest you digest very carefully what Napfs itself says it will or will not do.The reality is dispite the deletions this stuff is being sent out to the nations and peoples first and then posted on NaPFS,so i suggest you all loose the gossip and start coming up with cold hard facts and questions,NOT gossip.

I contacted the Muscogee (Creek) Nation about the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee. I asked if they were afiliated with the Blackwater Band and/or if they recognized them as a legitimate tribe or band. I also asked if members of the Blackwater Band have authority to represent the Mvskoke, to people in Europe? I received a reply from Joyce Bear, their Historic Preservation Officer, yesterday evening. Her reply was also sent to Robert Thrower, Tribal Historic Preservation Officer for the Poarch Band of Creek Indians, along with a copy of my original e-mail. I received a reply from Thrower this morning. Below are both e-mails:

Muscogee (Creek) Nation

Re: Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee???
From: Joyce Bear (preservation@muscogeenation-nsn.gov)
Sent: Fri 7/18/08 5:17 PM
To:  Robert Thrower (rgthrower@hotmail.com); Bonnie Singleton (bls926@msn.com)

There are ONLY TWO  FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED "CREEK' TRIBES in the United States......   The Poarch Band of Creek Indians located in Atmore, Alabama.   and the Muscogee (Creek) Nation, located in Okmulgee, Oklahoma......  The Muscogee (Creek) Nation DOES NOT recognize the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee or any other State recognized group as a legitimate American Indian tribe.  No one represents the Muscogee (Creek) Nation unless they are an elected official or appointed by our Principal Chief A. D. Ellis....The people you have mention, I have never heard of them....  and NO... they do not represent the Muscogee (Creek) Nation in any way or form...... I cannot speak for the Poarch Band....   I suggest that you contact Robert Thrower and the Poarch Band.....
Joyce A. Bear, Historic Preservation Officer, Muscogee (Creek) Nation.

Poarch Band of Creek Indians

RE: Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee???
From: Robert Thrower (rgthrower@hotmail.com)
Sent: Sat 7/19/08 9:48 AM
To:  bls926@msn.com
Cc:  preservation@muscogeenation-nsn.gov; rgthrower@hotmail.com


Bonnie

I concur with Joyce Bear, as a sovereign American Indian Nation, the Poarch Creeks do not recognize the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee or any other State (or self) recognized group as a legitimate American Indian tribe.  No one can represent our Tribe unless duly appointed by our Tribal Council.

Robert G. Thrower
Tribal Historic Preservation Officer
Poarch Band of Creek Indians

Cold hard facts; NOT gossip

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Thank you, bls.

[bls926]

You're welcome. Just trying to help.

[dabosijigwokush]

at last now this one can be laid to rest
it needs to be sent to the uk to dispell the billingtons deeds,and to clear the air once and for all